Guardians of the Flame

Post by **Vraith** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:28 pm

Just to make sure...in the first book, do the people have all kinds of trouble adjusting to their "character" roles...like the warrior guy actually kills someone for the first time and has a little existential crisis? And I think I recall something about crossing plains somewhere? and maybe something about a bridge? [really random, I know] If so, I need to look these up. I read the first book LONG ago, then lost/misplaced it, and forgot all about it till now.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:56 pm

Definitely trouble adjusting to their character roles; it is like most of them suffer from allowing whose thoughts and personality will dominate them. At least through the part I've read so far. I've come across nothing regarding one of the party killing anyone yet, nor mention of crossing plains or a bridge. But the group truly is just starting on the adventure, after 71 pages.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:15 pm

As I said, I reread this quickly to make sure I wasn't recommending something that would only have impressed me as a teenager. And honestly, after reading almost all of the 4th book, I have to admit there's some truth to that. There are lots of things I still like about it, but my tastes have grown quite bit in the 20 years since I've read it. I hope this doesn't come too late for some of you.

Ted's criticism is valid. Much of the later books are told from Karl's perspective (that changes in books which Ted hasn't read yet . . . ). And the dual character problem is dropped after the first book. However, I think there's a logical reason why that is dropped. At the end of the first book, each character is given a choice by the Matriarch, and in that scene they definitively chart a new course for their lives. I think that is the turning point for them, when they no longer struggle with their "fantasy selves" and revert back to their real personalities, without conflict (though Karl does seem to have a little bit of conflict remaining, due to his chosen profession and keeping that separate from his family life).

After the first book, what I like about this series is how these people from the real world change the fantasy world.

Spoiler

I mean entirely remake its political, economic, and technological structure. (You certainly don't see Covenant trying to introduce gunpowder to help the people of the Land . . . which might be considered strange given his need to find another solution besides using his ring. . . but that's not the "spiritual" story SRD is trying to tell.)

And it is handled in a way that seems plausible, given that the books are very short on detail. In fact, when you ask yourself, "What would I do if I were transported to a fantasy world," this series seems like the most plausible answer. It seems very realistic to me that we would also try to

Spoiler

end slavery, introduce technological and social advances to help these people,

and find ways to do exactly what we do in the real world: protect those we love, help those around us, and have a homebrewed beer every now and then (ok maybe that's just me

).

The chapters are extremely short, and each one jumps forward in time to the next "important" event without wasting time on the intervening mundane details. That can be both good and bad. Honestly, this series could be a lot more detailed in terms of character and world-building. But it's impressive how much he accomplishes with so little. It also makes for a very fast, easy read.

I think what appealed to me as a teenager was how the main characters were badasses. After reading about Hobbits and a white gold wielder who hardly ever wielded his white gold, I was itching for some action. These characters (primarily Walter, Karl, and Ellegon) are intelligent, decisive, smartass, driven, competent characters. That was a refreshing change for me at that time. However, reading it now, I can see that they do lack a lot of depth. Especially after picking up something complex and mature like Bakker's newest work.

Post by **Farm Ur-Ted** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:26 pm

Malik23 wrote: After the first book, what I like about this series is how these people from the real world change the fantasy world.
Spoiler
I mean entirely remake its political, economic, and technological structure. (You certainly don't see Covenant trying to introduce gunpowder to help the people of the Land . . . which might be considered strange given his need to find another solution besides using his ring. . . but that's not the "spiritual" story SRD is trying to tell.)
And it is handled in a way that seems plausible, given that the books are very short on detail. In fact, when you ask yourself, "What would I do if I were transported to a fantasy world," this series seems like the most plausible answer. It seems very realistic to me that we would also try to
Spoiler
end slavery, introduce technological and social advances to help these people,
and find ways to do exactly what we do in the real world: protect those we love, help those around us, and have a homebrewed beer every now and then (ok maybe that's just me ).

I totally agree with that. It's weird that the Covenant books have almost no pop cultural references in them once TC or LA are transported into the Land. The Guardian books have them peppered throughout. There's also a lot more humor (I wouldn't say that humor is one of SRD's strong points in his novels-but maybe he doesn't care about it). I loved it whenever Karl opined for a Big Mac. That seems like a normal thing for a teenager to do.

Spoiler

Regarding gunpowder, after checking out Rosenberg's website, it isn't a huge surprise that he'd want to use it as a plot point in the books. The dude operates his own message board on handguns. Let's just say, Charlton Heston is his president.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:22 am

Spoiler

Regarding gunpowder, I liked the fantasy world response: use magic to find a way to do it. They couldn't come up with the scientific formula, so they did what they do best: hire a wizard. The Ricetti's engineering vs wizardry was an interesting competition that could have been expanded upon, IMO. There could have been more examples of this, of the fantasy world trying to keep pace with "real world" advances. This was a big missed opportunity to escalate the themes, and really drive home the point that this wasn't merely a clash of a few characters invading a fantasy land, but an epic clash of two worlds, two genres. The whole "s.f. vs fantasy" thing could have been explored to great effect. But, that didn't happen. At least not in the books I've read.

Post by **Farm Ur-Ted** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:59 am

Spoiler

Yeah, I agree, the magical gunpowder was really pretty cool. Hell, it was as sci-fi-ish as some of the nano-nonsense I read last year in The Diamond Age. There should have been more about Ricetti, especially after he had all of his powers stripped.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:03 am

OK...
Can I just say Rosenberg can definitely get into the head of a somewhat guilt ridden,

Spoiler

fairly promiscuous, Jewish American Princess?

Holy crap, what the baby dragon showed Karl regarding Doria were my own thoughts for years...

Anyway, slowly getting through The Sleeping Dragon...

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:38 pm

I hope you enjoy them. After diving into Bakker's latest work, and remembering how he can make prose sing, I'm a little embarrassed to have recommended this series. Like I said, it's fun, but not too deep. But sometimes that can be a nice break.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:43 pm

No worries, Malik. I like light reading...

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:27 pm

Just finished The Sleeping Dragon. I enjoyed it very much, but I must admit...the denouement seemed to come out of nowhere. Almost as if the decision to continue on came to him later, as he was writing the book.

Or so it seems to me.

But I really did enjoy it, and am looking forward to The Sword and the Chain.

Thanks Malik.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:07 am

Glad you liked it. Yes, the end does seem to be quite a turn. But it was set up with Ellegon--a pivotal moment in the book. Everything else that happens to them from that moment happens as a direct result of the choice Karl makes. So while there may be some truth to the conjecture that the idea came to Rosenberg in the course of writing (hey, it happens), at least it develops naturally out of the characters' actions and choices.

And with the title of the next book, you can see Roserberg means business. The course has been set. They have purpose, now.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:16 pm

*nodding*

I gotta admit, I am really liking Ellegon in the opening chapter.

...but then, I love dragons anyway...

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:30 am

I finally finished the first omnibus. I know what was said and suspected about Deighton on Home side, but after his brief appearance at the end of The Sleeping Dragon, I was still surprised at the end of The Silver Crown. Like Beorn, I am hoping to continue on.

I've had the next book on order for over a month at the library, but being out of print they may just not be able to order it. I think it may be time to try Illiad instead, and see if we can get it that way...

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Thu May 13, 2010 10:25 pm

Well, over a year later, The Heir Apparent has come in via ILLiad, w00t! Beorn just finished rereading the first omnibus and has started in on The Heir Apparent. I'm pretty sure I don't need to do a reread of the omnibus, and expect Beorn to finish with book 4 in a day or so.

Looking forward to finally continuing this series.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:59 pm

Now beginning The Warrior Lives.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:05 pm

Menolly, what did you think of the Heir Apparent compared to the first trilogy?

Personally, I thought it was okay, but not nearly as good as the first three. I've said it before, but it quickly goes downhill from there.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:51 pm

Agreed.
As everyone says, including Jason himself,
Jason is not him.

But, I am enjoying it anyway.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:31 pm

I did like how Jason was not him. It was a surprising twist that I felt added to the realism--which is something you wouldn't expect from the D&D premise. And that's something this series did well; it consistently impressed me by how it managed to take itself seriously given the potentially goofy premise.

I also enjoyed the perspective of someone who was born in the fantasy world, but still a member of the group from our world. And the battle at Melawei was pretty exciting, and devistating.

I stopped here in my reread. Maybe it's time to catch back up with you at The Warrior Lives. I'll have to pull that out of the attic.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:27 pm

Just keep in mind it is light adventure, and not serious literature, despite it taking itself seriously. Maybe then you will find the joy you originally had in this series again.

I especially liked the brief scene with Arta Myrdhyn and Titania at the end of The Heir Apparent. Perhaps the gamemaster has a heart of sorts after all...

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:43 pm

I finally finished The Road to Ehvenor.
Now I'm with you, at least on this one.
meh

I hope we return to either the crusade against slavery or the reason why Arta Myrdhyn sent the original group over to begin with. TRtE lacked purpose or direction without either, IMO.

Anyway, time for a break from this series while I catch up in reading the latest in two other series.

...to be continued.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Guardians of the Flame