The Despiser's Intent.

[Orlion]

But in the end, how would Covenant act? Would saving the real people (Roger, Joan, Linden and probably Jeremiah) be more important to him than saving the Land? That is the question after all. And which would be more important to him, his RL wife and son or Linden and her adopted son?

But Covenant is dead, he essentially isn't real anymore

This doesn't prevent him from giving preferential treatment to real people. This point was illustrated in Mirror of her Dreams, wasn't it?

All right, I'm curious How so?

[shadowbinding shoe]

But Covenant is dead, he essentially isn't real anymore

This doesn't prevent him from giving preferential treatment to real people. This point was illustrated in Mirror of her Dreams, wasn't it?

All right, I'm curious How so?

Teresa believes she's unreal, that she was made by the mirror from which she was translated into Orion. Thus she is an unreal construct surrounded by real people, a reverse of roles to Thomas Covenant.

Her conclusion in a nutshell is that her desires and feelings don't matter, that she doesn't have any in fact. She just has to serve the real people of Orion.

[SkurjMaster]

Dear Watchers,

I don't think I have seen this anywhere else, not precisely. Linden keeps referring to the ring as Covenant's and, in the end of FR, that the rightful weilder is the only one capable of raising sufficient power to destroy the Arch. That means that TC would have to have the ring. I predict that Linden will not give TC the ring because she will discover that TC and Foul are in the process of merging.

Or, maybe that is the issue of acceptance in double-barreled fashion. TC accepts Foul and Lindend accepts that she must cede the ring to save her son. The trick is to figure out how to save Jeremiah without damning the Land. This may be where Jeremiah comes in.

[Orlion]

Well played, shadowbinding shoe.

And as far as SkurjMaster's thoughts, they are interesting insofar as they introduce another facet of the theme of acceptance. Linden wanted to find TC almost for the express propose of giving him the ring and abdicating all responsibility as far as the Land went, and maybe with respect to Jeremiah as well. She was of the mentality that "Once TC is here, he'll fix everything and everything will be all right."

However, if she thinks that giving TC the ring will be detremental, that means that she will have to accept the responsibility of her actions in her attempts to save Jeremiah.

[Mr. Broken]

She made her choice already by summoning Covenant, its a little late for her to start changing her mind now , as we say in Poker she's all in. As far as rightful weilders of the ring, is Joan not the rightful weilder of her's ? Did she forfeit that right when she divorced Covenant, is Linden now the rightful owner of Joans ring ?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

She made her choice already by summoning Covenant, its a little late for her to start changing her mind now , as we say in Poker she's all in. As far as rightful weilders of the ring, is Joan not the rightful weilder of her's ? Did she forfeit that right when she divorced Covenant, is Linden now the rightful owner of Joans ring ?

She's all in? How do you know she won't say "Just kiddingggg!" and kill him in the first paragraph of AATE?

[Mr. Broken]

Well I have to say if that happens I will think that Donaldson has lost all desire, and ability, to finish this story, and I will stop reading it.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Well I have to say if that happens I will think that Donaldson has lost all desire, and ability, to finish this story, and I will stop reading it.

But it'll fit the pattern of always missing meeting the real TC in these chronicles. But probably it'll be something less dramatic like TC immediately announcing he has to go somewhere and do important stuff and we'll be left with Linden continuing to wander the Land Covenantless until the last pages of the books where he'll reappear and manage to say 7 words.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

First sentence and paragraph of AATE: "At least you managed to bring me back with all my clothes on," he grumbled.

We could actually write this book ourselves, or at least some of you could, taking turns writing one paragraph at a time here.

[SkurjMaster]

Will TC even have access to the ring's power? Will he even need it? TC is the white gold. Wouldn't it be something if Linden has to figure out how to defeat TC in order to save the Land/Earth?

Maybe I am finally insane?

[wayfriend]

My take is, TC vowed he would never use power again, and I believe him.

Before the Final Chronicles end, I think we will see the end of white gold. It won't be needed any more.

I can see Linden trading the ring to the Harrow for her son, as SkurjMaster says. By that point, neither one of them will need it any more.

Also, the Creator (I think) said that the Despiser can't be killed. Covenant surely said it. If that bears out, we won't see Foul destroyed. The "ultimate answer to evil" won't be exterminating evil from the world.

The Mahdoubt, the Harrow, and others have seen that these are the last days of the Earth. I believe them. And yet, I believe that Donaldson will end the series with all of us joyful at Linden's and Covenant's triumphant success. So in the next two books, Donaldson has to make those two things happen at the same time. We need to see that the end of the Land is the right answer.

[spoonchicken]

TC & LF are simply two sides of the same coin (at least to TC). Perhaps TC "merges" with LF as the only real means to successfully "bottle Foul up"once and for all, and for all eternity. Joan dies, but somehow/someway cedes the ring willfully to somebody else (and it happens in such a way that Joan temporarily regains enough sanity to make a free choice, thereby avoiding diminishing the power of her ring). Probably Roger clears her mind, sweet-talks her out of the ring, and then kills her, both to "get rid of her", and as a means of provoking TC. Then Roger & TC get into a wild-magic battle, thereby destroying the Arch & freeing Foul. (TC is forced to kill Roger during this fight). Somewhere around the same time & place, LA is confronting/defeating Kastenessen, thereby either rescuing Jeremiah, or at least finding out his physical location. Perhaps LA promises the Harrow her ring in exchange for Jeremiahs location, but holds onto the ring until she sees results, but the Harrow gets killed somehow before he can collect. The croyel gets killed by LA, and Anele supplies the Earthpower neccessary to preserve Jeremiahs life as LA battles & kills the croyel. Afterwards, perhaps Jeremiah (with the help of the Elohim, instead of a croyel) creates one of his magical doorways, and TC steps through, dragging Foul with him. After all this happens, we're left with the following: LF finally & permanently defeated / Jeremiah freed / Roger, Joan, Esmer & The Harrow are either dead, or out of the picture / TC, LA, & friends are still alive only because something really strange has happened to preserve their lives, even though the Arch is destroyed (TC keeps them alive, by creating a pocket of Time within his own mini-Arch created with his own, personal wild magic???) Eventually, the Arch is rebuilt / restored, the Earth & the Land are also "brought back to life" from "The Last Dark". Liand & Pahni are supposed to play a sigficant role in these events, but I can't fit them in too well. I can imagine Liand becoming the first new High Lord of Revelstone at the end of the Last Dark, and he & Pahni being happily married, but I'm not conjuring up anything for them to do before then. Liand possibly wields the Staff of Law on Lindens behalf in conjunction with his orcrest, perhaps....???

[Orlion]

As far as rightful weilders of the ring, is Joan not the rightful weilder of her's ? Did she forfeit that right when she divorced Covenant, is Linden now the rightful owner of Joans ring ?

If we are to follow what I think are the Laws of Identity and Choice, Linden is at the moment the rightful owner of Covenant's ring, since he willed it to her at the end of the Second Chronicles (with, I assume, all the Arch destroying potential).

Joan's case is a little more complicated, though effectively nulled due to her insanity, but to begin to approach this question, we need to ask, "Can someone else besides TC be 'the white-gold'?"

And what the hell is Esmer up to? I refuse to let him go, even though through these discussions he has somehow slipped under my radar... it shan't happen again!

[Mr. Broken]

Im nearly finished with my re-read of the first two chronicles, upon its completion I will re-read the last chronicles, and return to this discussion.

[ninjaboy]

Just gotta start with saying to Shadowbinding, who said "Teresa believes she's unreal, that she was made by the mirror from which she was translated into Orion. Thus she is an unreal construct surrounded by real people, a reverse of roles to Thomas Covenant." that Teresia didn't believe she was unreal throughout Mordant's Need, and the few times she felt the most 'unreal' was when she was under Eremis' influence. As far as I understand it..

And in an attempt to answer the question 'Can Someone else besides TC be the White Gold?' I can't see how that's possible.. That's why he was Summonned, wasn't he, because he's the White Gold? Perhaps all people who get transferred from the 'real world' have the potential to transform into something similar.. (Hile Troy: Mossy Tree Man; Linden: Whore. He he. I mean Red Healy Car Lady; Jeremiah: Box Kid; and let's not forget Roger: Evil Hand-Flamey Guy.) There may be room for speculation on that, of course.
And even if you could have two "white Gold' people, I don't see how you could have two at the same time - that itself would surely shatter the Arch of Time.

[aliantha]

Acceptance is the key, that's for sure. Linden's *real* job is to figure out how to accept her own shadow-self -- the part of her that was capable of killing her own mother. She might think that rescuing Jeremiah is her primary goal, but really that's secondary to her acceptance of *all* of herself. When she can do that, she will save the Land -- no white gold necessary.

This prediction brought to you by the American Armchair Psychologists Association, Literature Chapter.

[deer of the dawn]

Boy, reading this thread makes AATE look to be so dark and depressing, I might have to go buy some black lipstick and dresses before buying the sucker. You people are actually relishing Covenant's possible agony at impossible choices? Oh, let's be honest. Maybe that's why we read the Chrons. A "there but for the grace of God go I" kind of thing.

Back on topic (I seem to have to do that a lot, threadjackers!) the Despiser's intent is to get out of the Arch, and inflict a lot of pain on others along the way-- in fact, his sadism is probably his biggest weakness and has distracted him from the purity of his aims in the past. He gets so excited about raping the Land that he doesn't notice he's canceling himself out with wild magic.

In fact, if LF matures beyond that, he will be unstoppable. He's already very smart and very very patient, at least until the end. If he can carry through without getting carried away, look out.

[wayfriend]

Boy, reading this thread makes AATE look to be so dark and depressing, I might have to go buy some black lipstick and dresses before buying the sucker.

AATE will be the Empire Strikes Back of the series. Of course.

In the First Cs, the books ended up, down, and up.

In the Second Cs, the books ended up, down, and up.

In the Final Cs, the first book ended huh? but the second one definitely ended up. So I see a down and an up coming.

[Andy Lane]

Do you see TC buying into Linden's ideology and declaring that the Arch can crash and the Land burn, all that's important is saving his son Roger?

Considering that the title of the final volume is "The Last Dark," I can see the end of The Land.

[Andy Lane]

I don't see TC buying into that...he is the Arch.

And I'd love to see Foul force Cov to choose between Joan, Linden and Roger, one left alive...that would really hit home...Despair, groveler...

When has Foul REALLY been able to make TC choose anything? He frustrates Foul by making his own choices.