Covenant's Summoner

[sweetbread]

This just hit me the other day. Covenant was summoned to the Land by people outside of the Land, the most important and prominent to our story of which just so happens to be good ol' Jeremiah. Would it be possible, in theory, to break Covenant's summon by killing Jeremiah, and thereby booting him from the Land like an overloaded MMORPG server?

Linden won't do it. I'll throw that one out there. Her entire reason for even being in the Land is Jeremiah, so there's no way she's going to kill him. It would be highly unlikely for Roger to kill him since he's going to be the exit now that the Worm is awake, however, banishing Covenant from the Land may be a card he'd like to play eventually.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I have no idea what your asking.
Jeremiah took place in the "ritual" that was required to weaken the walls between worlds so Foul could summon TC (and indirectly Linden).
Jeremiah was never a summoner.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Even if you wanted it to work you would have to kill loads more other people (were there 30 people around that fire? more?) And seeing as Linden got back out of the Land when LF was reduced at end of WGW we already know this isn't true.

But maybe if the story returns to the world outside the Land all those mad people in Linden clinic will become possessed and be LF's agents there (again)

[wayfriend]

We have words in the story and in the Gradual Interview that Foul summoned Covenant and Linden in the second chronicles. Not anyone else. Jeremiah merely helped provide some of the power.

Second, we also have words in the story and in the text that when you're dead in the real world, you don't have to return when your summoner dies. Hile Troy being the first example. So even Foul's demise in the second chronicles didn't send Covenant back, as it sent back Linden.

We also know that Joan summoned Linden and Jeremiah and Roger this time. Foul is not making "the same mistake" -- whatever that means. So I fully expect that the details of who summoned who to be important in the Final Chronicles. Just not, as I see it, regarding Covenant.

[spoonchicken]

We have words in the story and in the Gradual Interview that Foul summoned Covenant and Linden in the second chronicles. Not anyone else. Jeremiah merely helped provide some of the power.

Second, we also have words in the story and in the text that when you're dead in the real world, you don't have to return when your summoner dies. Hile Troy being the first example. So even Foul's demise in the second chronicles didn't send Covenant back, as it sent back Linden.

We also know that Joan summoned Linden and Jeremiah and Roger this time. Foul is not making "the same mistake" -- whatever that means. So I fully expect that the details of who summoned who to be important in the Final Chronicles. Just not, as I see it, regarding Covenant.

.........................................Agreed, agreed, & agreed

[High Lord Tolkien]

We also know that Joan summoned Linden and Jeremiah and Roger this time. Foul is not making "the same mistake" -- whatever that means.

I don' agree with this.
Where does it say that in the book.
I must have missed it.
If Joan summoned them then who summoned Joan and when?
I know her mind was slipping in and out of the Land-verse.
It seems like a contradiction that she's be able to exist in two places at the same time.
TC was able to open a path back for Linden with WM but not himself so I can see.....arghhhh! my brain just imploded!

[sweetbread]

Second, we also have words in the story and in the text that when you're dead in the real world, you don't have to return when your summoner dies. Hile Troy being the first example. So even Foul's demise in the second chronicles didn't send Covenant back, as it sent back Linden.

Wait a second here, Hile was dead in the real world? I don't recall that ever being mentioned...in fact, I thought that was the point of TC's phone call to the DoD; confirming his death would have brought no comfort to Covenant. But don't say anything if I'm wrong! I'm rereading TIW right now, so I'll come across it eventually.

If Joan summoned them then who summoned Joan and when?
I know her mind was slipping in and out of the Land-verse.

The question makes an excellent point, High Lord. Who summoned Joan? That's more of a declaration than a question. Of course no one did; she existed on some level paralleling Jeremiah's catatonia. We're told that Joan was lucid after the events in the Second Chronicles, I wonder if Jeremiah was as well....

It seems like a contradiction that she's be able to exist in two places at the same time.

arghhhh! my brain just imploded!

Nonsense! This has been happening since..... well, the beginning. Especially when the two places aren't of congruent realities. So a Life->Land duality can easily exist in terms of physiology, however, how does that translate to mentality? Time is obviously different, so how do the mental interpretations of what occur in the Land relate to the physical processes that yield to consciousness, memory, and belief in the real world? Similarly, with that discrepancy, is it even possible to exist dually in mind at both places simultaneously? There's some more fuel for the implosion! =)

One would think that a Land->Land duality would be as impossible as a Life->Life duality. Roger made it seem possible, however, we know that not even Theo nor Foul himself could exist dually within the arch of time; Theo could pass between moments easily, but needed to remain in one discrete moment of time at any given point of time. Foul, now that's just another matter altogether.

I wonder what the old Foul (Berek's time) thinks of what just happened between Roger and Linden underneath Melenkurion Skyweir....

[wayfriend]

RE: Hile Troy

It never says anything about Troy's immediate death in the First or Second Chronicles. So you're not wrong. (Which, I hope, means I can say something. )

But in 2004 Donaldson says as much in the GI. And it enters the story, for the first time I think, in the penultimate chapter of Fatal Revenant.

Clearly, Donaldson has been thinking about this caveat to the summoning rules. And, as he has said, it promises to be an integral part of the Final Chronicles.

Who summoned Joan?

Indeed. That's the big question. She may not have been "summoned", in a lawful way, at all. And it's possible she may have brought herself over.

I think there's a big question unanswered about the end of The One Tree: did Covenant break any Laws, specifically the Laws of Summoning, when he "pushed" Linden back to the real world, and allowed her to be in two places at the same time?

And did Joan take advantage of those broken Laws to get to the Land?

I posed this question in more detail here.

[SkurjMaster]

Could Jeremiah have been the summoner with the aid of the croyel. His mind was in the Land, right?

[wayfriend]

It's clear in the story it was Joan.

Now a Raver had taken hold of Joan. Perhaps it had lived in her for years. Certainly it filled her now, feeding on her madness, consuming her with its voracious malevolence.

And it possessed Joan's ring. Turiya Herem could wield wild magic in the service of the Despiser. Coerced by the Raver, Joan had summoned others after her. Roger. Linden herself.

And Jeremiah-?

At the time we first read this, we assume the question mark is because we don't know if Jeremiah is summoned at all. But, looking at this in a new light ... it's possible Joan did not summon Jeremiah, he arrived in a different way.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Now a Raver had taken hold of Joan. Perhaps it had lived in her for years. Certainly it filled her now, feeding on her madness, consuming her with its voracious malevolence.

And it possessed Joan's ring. Turiya Herem could wield wild magic in the service of the Despiser. Coerced by the Raver, Joan had summoned others after her. Roger. Linden herself.

This is bullcrap!
Not you Wayfriend but the idea that Joan and Jeremiah have been popping in and out of the Land for years now without some elaborate ritual that had been required in the past.

I need to reread Runes again apparently.
I don't like this idea AT ALL.
In Linden's mad rush to the clearing behind Haven Farm, who was in the "translation zone"? (my quotes)
Wasn't it Joan, Roger, Linden and Jeremiah (not the nurse, I don't think that at all either)?

I thought that was Joan's first time in the Land.
And then the Raver started to torment her.
If she had been there already then what was the point of Foul telling the Raver to tell Joan that he now "has her son"?
Why wait that long?
(he wasn't talking to Linden about Jeremiah, that's too obvious)