Authority

[rusmeister]

And all because Eve wanted to know more. Bad woman! She shoulda just done what she was told and stayed stupid, I guess, huh? But there I go again, interpreting the Bible on my own, without any help from learned church fathers....

If we take this motivation, and an analogy with a curious child who was warned, say, not to stick their finger in an electric socket, we can see how a kind of curiosity that leads to death actually ought to be discouraged, then the nature of the sin - disobedience - no longer surprises us.

[Vraith]

In most ways [perhaps all the important ones] the having of authority depends 100% on the reliability of the being in authority [if God exists by anything even remotely resembling Christian definition, S/He obviously has authority]
Everything else depends on the questioning of authority...not the fact that someone is in a position of authority, but the basis of that authority. Rus, you understand an NCO must follow a CO [except in very limited instances] The basis is well defined. [you give up the questioning aspect by joining, and if they are not reliable nasty things happen]
But is Christianity, or any specific off-shoot, subject to that?
If I believed in God, I would never...no matter what...question that authority..it's God for god's sake.
But the authority of my minister/priest...my church...my tradition...my Bible...all of these are sources and targets of questioning unless I have a personal revelation of God...then I become an authority subject to questioning.
It comes down to: Authority (familial, social, gov'tal, and religious) is obligated to prove itself.
Refering back a bit: If you tell a 3 yr old..don't do that, it's the rule because of emergency or their lack of capacity to understand...well the emergency ends, their capacity increases. It is your job to prove the validity of the authority.
I do not believe in the Christian God, because the validity of the authority [all from people, God never spoke to me personally] has not been proven to me...in fact undercuts itself constantly. I'd likely have not joined the Army if I realized the baseless nature of much of their authority [no..better said..the nature of decisions that CAN be made that are not based in real authority].
The authority should provide a basis for faith, not faith be a precondition of the authority.

[Cybrweez]

The authority should provide a basis for faith, not faith be a precondition of the authority.

But then:

If you tell a 3 yr old..don't do that, it's the rule because of emergency or their lack of capacity to understand...well the emergency ends, their capacity increases.

Who determines when their capacity has increased?

[Vraith]

The authority should provide a basis for faith, not faith be a precondition of the authority.

But then:

If you tell a 3 yr old..don't do that, it's the rule because of emergency or their lack of capacity to understand...well the emergency ends, their capacity increases.

Who determines when their capacity has increased?

Have actual communication with your kids, you'll both know when [and if you don't notice, the child will point it out...probably in a way that makes you feel stupid or embarassed.
I see the corner your trying to put me in so I'll go with a parable:
Kid: Mom, where did I come from?
Mom: Well, [long explanation, with lots of hmm-ing and umm-ing and blushing].
Kid: Yeah, but was it Syracuse or Rochester?
{supposedly true story a friend told me about herself}
Who missed the point?

[aliantha]

I really recommend you check out Frederica Mathewes-Green, a former radical feminist-come-Orthodox 'matushka' - it is really hard to argue with someone who was feminist heart and soul, because as both a woman and someone who thoroughly understands the issues from the inside, she accurately deconstructs the conventional wisdom guiding feminists. www.frederica.com/
www.frederica.com/writings/category/marriage-and-family
www.frederica.com/writings/category/gender
Her style is folksy, not intellectual, making it engaging for the average reader.

I did check out her site, Rus, and I thank you for the link. She and I are practically neighbors -- my Czech classes are in Baltimore, where her church is, and I used to live down the street from the seminary that she and her husband both attended.

I found I agreed with what she said on how to end the need for abortions. It's likely that I need not tell you that she and I are on opposite sides of the issue -- but I agree with her deconstruction of why the anti-abortion-rights crowd's main argument isn't working. I might just have to venture into the latest abortion thread in the Tank (gotta gird my loins first, tho ) and post a link to her essay there.

As for her theology, well, I will say that I had a similar revelatory experience to hers, which shook me out of my own agnosticism. The difference is that mine was not in the presence of an image of Jesus, so the result was somewhat different: hers led her to an Episcopal seminary and mine led me into Paganism.

Re disobedience: I acknowledge what you're saying, but I think there is some difference in degree between committing a specific behavior to gain knowledge and doing something that risks electrocution. (Which God may have seen, too, considering he didn't fry her on the spot. )

Speaking of Adam and Eve, something occurred to me which is probably wildly off-base, so y'all feel free to point and laugh. A number of pagan religions (that's little-p pagan) visualize the cosmos as a World Tree -- the gods live in the branches above, the underworld is among the roots below, and humanity lives in the world in between. As I understand it, this is quite an ancient belief, tho I can't off the top of my head remember where it originated (or even if anybody knows where it originated -- I seem to recall an Indo-European root, tho). Moreover, many ancient religions have gods that can take the shape of a snake (or sometimes a dragon). Would it be too much of a stretch to think of the tree in the Garden of Eden as the pagan World Tree, and the snake as a pagan deity, trying to tempt Yahweh's creations into straying from the path he has put them on?

[Vraith]

I seem to recall an Indo-European root, tho). Moreover, many ancient religions have gods that can take the shape of a snake (or sometimes a dragon). Would it be too much of a stretch to think of the tree in the Garden of Eden as the pagan World Tree, and the snake as a pagan deity, trying to tempt Yahweh's creations into straying from the path he has put them on?

Interesting idea. Might have to expand my knowledge, but I have some familiarity with the really ancient mythology of the region, and I don't recall any of the indigenous groups having the World Tree. There were some with serpent figures, they were usually associated with wisdom or knowledge...so there might be a connection there. There is also some [indirect] evidence that there was significantly more trade/travel with distant parts than previously assumed, and a serious lack of written texts...so they might have known more about other systems/cultures than we have in the records.
Ooops..off topic. Sorry.

[rusmeister]

I really recommend you check out Frederica Mathewes-Green, a former radical feminist-come-Orthodox 'matushka' - it is really hard to argue with someone who was feminist heart and soul, because as both a woman and someone who thoroughly understands the issues from the inside, she accurately deconstructs the conventional wisdom guiding feminists. www.frederica.com/
www.frederica.com/writings/category/marriage-and-family
www.frederica.com/writings/category/gender
Her style is folksy, not intellectual, making it engaging for the average reader.

I did check out her site, Rus, and I thank you for the link. She and I are practically neighbors -- my Czech classes are in Baltimore, where her church is, and I used to live down the street from the seminary that she and her husband both attended.

I found I agreed with what she said on how to end the need for abortions. It's likely that I need not tell you that she and I are on opposite sides of the issue -- but I agree with her deconstruction of why the anti-abortion-rights crowd's main argument isn't working. I might just have to venture into the latest abortion thread in the Tank (gotta gird my loins first, tho ) and post a link to her essay there.

As for her theology, well, I will say that I had a similar revelatory experience to hers, which shook me out of my own agnosticism. The difference is that mine was not in the presence of an image of Jesus, so the result was somewhat different: hers led her to an Episcopal seminary and mine led me into Paganism.

Re disobedience: I acknowledge what you're saying, but I think there is some difference in degree between committing a specific behavior to gain knowledge and doing something that risks electrocution. (Which God may have seen, too, considering he didn't fry her on the spot. )

Speaking of Adam and Eve, something occurred to me which is probably wildly off-base, so y'all feel free to point and laugh. A number of pagan religions (that's little-p pagan) visualize the cosmos as a World Tree -- the gods live in the branches above, the underworld is among the roots below, and humanity lives in the world in between. As I understand it, this is quite an ancient belief, tho I can't off the top of my head remember where it originated (or even if anybody knows where it originated -- I seem to recall an Indo-European root, tho). Moreover, many ancient religions have gods that can take the shape of a snake (or sometimes a dragon). Would it be too much of a stretch to think of the tree in the Garden of Eden as the pagan World Tree, and the snake as a pagan deity, trying to tempt Yahweh's creations into straying from the path he has put them on?

Thanks, Ali!
I kind of envy you being neighbors - I would love to have the chance to meet her - she is a fairly big voice in the American Orthodox world.

On disobedience - to a small child

committing a specific behavior to gain knowledge

is exactly what sticking the finger in the socket is. They don't understand electricity or death. It's exactly the same thing, and the reason for authoritative denial (where explanations are useless to a 2-year old) is equally justified. Also, it's not a matter of "God frying her" or anyone. It's a matter of our frying ourselves.

Re: Garden of Eden: I think it's the other way around. The pagan myths and legends are (often distorted) memories of the ancient Biblical events (whether said events happened literally as described or metaphorically). It makes perfect sense that many mythologies around the world tell of a flood, if the flood actually happened. Ditto for a memory of paradise/GofE.

[aliantha]

Re: Garden of Eden: I think it's the other way around. The pagan myths and legends are (often distorted) memories of the ancient Biblical events (whether said events happened literally as described or metaphorically). It makes perfect sense that many mythologies around the world tell of a flood, if the flood actually happened. Ditto for a memory of paradise/GofE.

I was thinking more along the lines of Vraith's comments: that the story may have been designed, at least in part, to illustrate why humans should reject the teachings of the other extant religions -- because the old gods (i.e., the serpent) were false gods who would lead one into danger, and anyhow Yahweh had dominion over them.

[Vraith]

Re: Garden of Eden: I think it's the other way around. The pagan myths and legends are (often distorted) memories of the ancient Biblical events (whether said events happened literally as described or metaphorically). It makes perfect sense that many mythologies around the world tell of a flood, if the flood actually happened. Ditto for a memory of paradise/GofE.

I was thinking more along the lines of Vraith's comments: that the story may have been designed, at least in part, to illustrate why humans should reject the teachings of the other extant religions -- because the old gods (i.e., the serpent) were false gods who would lead one into danger, and anyhow Yahweh had dominion over them.

I have to go with Ali here...I'm pretty sure what your response will be, Rus [ you do occaisionally surprise], but the story of the flood [and several other Biblical events/parables Old and New Testament] pre-date any version of Judaism, and every version of Christianity by very long time frames.

[Kinslaughterer]

For what its worth, since I'm already posting in the other thread....

One must understand the cultural context to comprehend the larger meaning and social controls both implicit and explicit in politics, religion etc. of a given society.

The Jews for example are/were a patrilineal, patrilocal, extended-kin, pastoralists. There religion and much of their social infrastructure still exhibits those earlier controls and traditions. All aspects of a society are connected.