World of Warcraft

[I'm Murrin]

I know that some of you have alliances with DO and may have already promised to go with them.

If you decide to go with us you will be expected to maintain loyalty to us as we do not have enough people to worry about who may or may not be locked with another group.

I am not looking to break up existing teams. I am stating it bluntly to avoid any potential misunderstandings. We have had too many people get geared up and then ditch us for larger raiding guilds and such. Not that I think anyone here would do that, but I am responsible for bringing in some problem people.

We are a raiding guild, and that's what we need to do to make it work. If anyone has a problem with that, no hard feelings.

If anyone has questions, please ask.

I've been thinking of pulling away from DO a little lately with the poor performance I've been seeing in Naxx, but I'm not entirely sure - the last two nights in there we beat the two bosses that had wiped us repeatedly and then had a very nice night on Thaddius, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad, so I'm not sure it's a total loss (though I didn't get to see KT downed).

I would prefer a group that a) got the content cleared in a shorter time frame and b) used fewer players to do it. I know time is a problem but when I've had two characters between them see 9 bosses downed out of 15 when the instance was fully cleared I feel like I missed out a little.




To move away from DO or AD for a while, I've continued to think about the Watch's own activity, and I'm coming to the conclusion that what we need is a raid leader. I know we're small, but I think we're clearly capable of doing Naxx as well as OS. I don't think I make much of a raid leader - we need someone who knows the content, can organise runs at times that'll work, and can pull a group together when the time comes (you'll probably have noticed I'm pretty bad at the last one, relying on others to find people to fill spots), as well as actually running the raid itself once inside. In raids I'm much more comfortable just doing my job and giving a few small pointers than actually deciding strategy and sorting out other players' roles.

I want us to do a Naxx run. Not this reset, maybe next. We need a day, a time, and we need someone who can run the thing. I don't want to step on the toes of your other guild, Sorus, I would just like to see the Watch start going somewhere on our own. I don't think there's anything stopping us running a new group alongside the others.


As I said, we're a small guild. Lately we've had a couple of new people, friends of friends, or friends alts join the guild, only to leave again after a short time. We need to look like we're actually a guild that's working together and going somewhere, not just a group of players who chat and share a title but split up to go and run with other guilds when it comes to raiding. If we start doing more than the one small raid a week, continuing to bring in people here and there to fill gaps when necessary, we're more likely to grow and progress.

I just don't have the right personality to make this happen. Pointing in the direction I want us to go is not enough.

[[Syl]]

I'd offer to help, but:

1) I also do not have the personality type for that. I like to get things set up and have the ability to effect whatever changes I think are necessary, but when it comes to actually leading people...

2) I'll most likely be taking at least a short hiatus from WoW come the 1st.

My two cents on the rest of the stuff... well... it all sounds like work. I mean, I like the challenge of getting geared up, and I like to be able to help out when people need me. At a certain point, though, I think it's important to remember it's just a game. Long-term stress in the face of Warcraft seems counter intuitive to me.

[Web Monkey]

/unstealth

Jhemtar's two cents:

Things change quickly on WoW. Gear and DPS levels can improve a lot in just 2 weeks. The tri-guild connection that we all thought was sublime 3 weeks ago, now seems iffy. It may seem like a great idea again by next month.

A bit of "going with the flow" is called for.

I too hope that The Watch can do some of it's own stuff. I am really enjoying the Satuday noon-time run of OS, and would love to try doing some other runs. Even if we have to semi-PUG one or two people, I think it is worth a shot.

When I am on (which is later at night on weeknights) I am always wanting and willing to run any heroics or raids, so if anyone wants to be on later at night, I'll be there. I am also planning to be around a bit earlier on weeknights, so I can join the Tuesday/Thursday raids.

On a guild expansion note, I may be inviting a friend to join WoW, and while it will take it him a long while to get to 80, I think we should all keep an eye out for recruitment possibilities. From current players to new ones.

/stealth

[Sorus]

I've been thinking of pulling away from DO a little lately with the poor performance I've been seeing in Naxx, but I'm not entirely sure - the last two nights in there we beat the two bosses that had wiped us repeatedly and then had a very nice night on Thaddius, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad, so I'm not sure it's a total loss (though I didn't get to see KT downed).

They didn't down KT. They did lock nearly every member of both the Watch and many from AD in the attempt, which ruined our efforts to get our own run together last night.

My two cents on the rest of the stuff... well... it all sounds like work. I mean, I like the challenge of getting geared up, and I like to be able to help out when people need me. At a certain point, though, I think it's important to remember it's just a game. Long-term stress in the face of Warcraft seems counter intuitive to me.

It is work. But it's also a lot of fun, if you're with a good group. Naxx 10 isn't stressful. 25 is like herding cats in hell. Live and learn.

I joined AD because I was tired of doing nothing but dailies and the rare heroic. I wanted to see end-game content. At the time, everyone in the Watch that I talked to had little-to-no interest in raiding.

That has changed, and I have been trying to get people who are interested in on runs.

As to an all-Watch Naxx run... We're not there yet. The people we have are ready, but we don't have enough people. We've had to pull in a tank every week for our OS runs, and a healer for 2/3 runs. AD has come to our rescue every time. I think maintaining a partnership is in our best interests. We're trying to get people geared up in Naxx so we can all do Ulduar. AD and the Watch work well together. I'm certainly for doing things of our own, and I have no problem with leading events, but we don't have a full 10-man team yet, and recruiting really, really sucks.

[I'm Murrin]

They didn't down KT. They did lock nearly every member of both the Watch and many from AD in the attempt, which ruined our efforts to get our own run together last night.

I had my suspicions, we had a sub-10% attempt then myself and at least 3 others had to drop, so I knew it'd be a totally new group pretty mcuh starting on him when Elan said he'd look for more.


Anyway, as to the naxx, like I said I don't want to step on any toes, and I don't want to try and do it weekly like OS just yet. I would like to go in just occasionally when people are available to try some easy wings. This is probably not a great idea, because people will probably see mor of it with the other groups. Meh.


To be honest, with the mess of raid IDs Elan's runs are creating, I'm starting to think I need to pick a side in this, and I don't quite like the way that feels. I only see partial clears with Elan because as long as he's online he'll keep going with anyone he can drag in, but on the other hand I don't have the right time zone to join in AD runs so I haven't seen *anything* with them yet...

[Sorus]

We will be going back to Saturdays next week.

As to choosing sides, that is something I didn't want people to have to do. It would have been really nice if it had worked as a tri-guild event. But it didn't. I'm not going to drag out all the details of why it didn't work. I'm not going to tell people who they can or should group with.

But we've had enough of the ID mess. Missing a run on a Monday night wasn't a huge issue. Losing a healer who signed up with us on reset day hurt.

[[Syl]]

[I'm Murrin]

Big, big grats, Syl.

[Madadeva]

Grats!!

[lucimay]

RIGHT ON, Sheriff! wooo hooodey!


regarding the raid thing; i am in the game to make friends, socialize with those friends, and play the game to the best of my ability.

i've made some friends, become better friends with those i already knew from the watch, and sometimes get exceedingly neurotic about my abilities to be a good player.

but i'm here, first and foremost, to have fun.

i would like to see the watch become more organized and expand in the raids and such. that's part of having a good time.
i enjoy running raids with people i trust not to make me feel like a loser
if i don't do so hot.

i am not a member of either DO or AD, i'm a watcher. i enjoy running raids with both the other guilds and i love the friends i've made on the game.

both DO members and AD members have helped me become a better player eNORmously and for that i am very grateful and will run raids, dungeons, and quest groups with whoever asks me from any of the three guilds. (IF i am asked!! lol!!)

i consider it a complement if anyone, ANYone asks me to run with them.
i hate being left out of anything. (<-------- completely neurotic like that but at least i know it! )

i know i can be peevish at times and i vent to anyone near enough to listen to me do so and for that, i apologize. most of the time, when i do that, i am in fact, venting. it disipates whatever extreme emotion i am having to talk it out. sometimes tho, i'll vent to the wrong person or add fuel to fires when i don't mean to. i apologize for that too.
i'll try not to vent my silly neurosis so much to any of you.
after all, we'er here to have FUN right?
(as opposed to you all being my shrinks on any given occasion! )

so anyway, the upshot is that i enjoy the raiding now that i'm getting into it. i'm eager to learn how to be a better player and help out anyone else when they need it.

i'm no raid leader tho so i'm not applying for that position! i'll leave that to kysen, elan, stormblaze, raest, chryss, and kelleta. i'm not cut out for that much stress! LOL!!

which reminds me...

i do much better in 10 mans than i do in 25 mans. i do better in 5 mans than i do in 10 mans.
i get over-stimulated and get confused trying to keep track of my pet and my damage and my dps and my debuffs and my buffs and my shot rotation and adds and bosses and tanks and healers and DANCES and the like.

for that reason i need to do more 5 mans and 10 mans to prepare and practice for 25 mans. i also still need lots of the BC regular and heroic dungeons for achievements. this seems like a good way to practice to me
and chryss has said she is going to run some of those to help people level and get the achievments and whatnot so i'm hoping she'll let me tag along on those.

as i said, i'm going to run with any of my friends that ask me to run. no matter what they're running. it's all experience to me and its all fun.
and thats my 15 or 20 cents on the recent topics.

[Sorus]

Good post, Luci. That's the way it should be. For what it's worth, the way I wanted it to be. And hopefully, the way it still is for most of us.

I will keep myself well away from all DO-related events, and I will keep my opinions to myself.

[I'm Murrin]

I've been keeping my opinion to myself far too much. I'm still not going to say some things, because it won't be constructive at all and will probably make things worse. But I'm getting tired of some of this.

I let stuff go past me and just enjoy the game. Other people should try to do the same. Because it is, after all, a game. Don't let this stuff become personal.



On another note, I think the fact that The Watch no longer even has 10 players with level 80 characters on its roster, and only one healer, has put paid to hopes of all-Watch raids in the near future.

[Sorus]

Yes, it is a game. I think we can all agree that we play to have fun.

But it's also a game where you have a ton of real people who all have a lot invested in it, and a whole lot of different personalities, and while it would be nice if we could all just get along, some conflict is inevitable.

It has hurt to see us go from being able to do our own raids to not being able to do much of anything. I feel at least partly responsible for that, and for the conflict currently in AD.

If I thought I could fix it by leaving the guild, I would. This last week has been so stressful in RL that to sign on and have to deal with problem after problem in a game that I play to relieve stress has had me close to canceling my account a couple of times. I don't want to do that. I also don't want to leave the guild, but I want what is best for the guild, and if that's me leaving, I will.

For now I am trying to help where I can, fix what I can, and not cause any more problems.

[I'm Murrin]

Your leaving the Watch would do little to improve your situation and go far to making ours worse.


As far as I can tell, the only people within the Watch who really seem to be having issues because of this recent stuff are yourself and Chrys - the rest of us seem to be just bystanders.

[Sorus]

And me leaving would solve any problems that might exist between the Watch and DO, which is the only reason I would consider leaving.

We've talked about this a bit behind the scenes. I'm not ever going to be a member of Elan's fanclub. If he stops trying to recruit AD's raid team into his guild and destroying our raids, I am willing to call a truce and forgive anything he has done in the past, but I brought him into AD and vouched for him, and I feel responsible for any problems he causes there. This is between me as a member of AD and Elan. It has nothing to do with the Watch, and I don't want the Watch involved. The Watch is, however, involved because I am a member of the Watch, which is why I am willing to leave.

[I'm Murrin]

I think we're beyond the point where your connection to AD is what would damage relations between the Watch and DO.

[Sorus]

My connection to the Watch is what would damage relations between the Watch and DO.

I saw Elan as a threat to the Watch because of what he is doing to AD. I have tried to turn people against him, and I have tried to make them choose sides. This has been counterproductive, because we keep losing people to DO anyway. He must be doing something right.

It is very difficult for me to be objective when I feel there is a threat to my friends and everything I have worked to help build. I may have overreacted.

I don't believe that what he is doing to AD is out of malice or any actual desire to hurt us. But it is hurting us, and as a leader of his own small guild he should be able to see and understand that. He has a whole server to recruit from.

[I'm Murrin]

My connection to the Watch is what would damage relations between the Watch and DO.

You need to stop telling yourself that.


As for losing people to Elan, I'm pretty sure that of the people left, all of them would choose the Watch over DO. Okay, so we've already lost someone, and this has hurt the guild. But I don't think it will go any further than that.

[Sorus]

My connection to the Watch is what would damage relations between the Watch and DO.

You need to stop telling yourself that.

Well, I can tell ya that if he continues to hurt AD I am going to declare all-out war on him, and I realllly don't want the Watch involved in that.

I don't think that will be necessary. He may have even already stopped; he was certainly told that what he was doing is wrong and why, and hopefully that was enough.

There is still a fair amount of tension that will take time to heal, but I believe it will heal. AD has been hurt before and survived. We often get used by people who want to get geared up enough that they can ditch us for SoR or Solace. Hell, I owe my spot on their raid team to one of those people. We survive.

I don't like the way Elan treated me personally or AD in general. I won't ever raid with him again. But as I said earlier, I do want an end to the conflict. And I will stay out of things as much as possible unless he starts causing problems again.

As for the Watch, it will take us longer to recover from our losses. Our core team is intact, and I don't believe any of them are going anywhere. I won't, unless people want me to. Shall we put it to a vote?

But we will recover too, and it will help when Chrys comes back - Chrys.

I also think we should maintain ties between the Watch and AD - I know everyone who went with us this week had fun. Think most of them are out of town this weekend, but hopefully we can continue with our plans to do Naxx 10 next Saturday.

If some people would rather go with DO because they have prior commitments or if AD's times don't work for them or any other reason, I will not say anything. All I ask is that you don't sign up for both on the same character.

[Creator]

... If some people would rather go with DO because they have prior commitments or if AD's times don't work for them or any other reason, I will not say anything. All I ask is that you don't sign up for both on the same character.

I am probably confused ... I thought this is was the rule that was set up between the three guilds anyway. (it does help when one have 3 er 4 80s ) If guild X asks some to fill in from guild Y and guild Y members say "yes" and end up getting locked and causing guild Y problems is that a problem with the 'requestor' or the 'requestee'? I would think the guild Y member would know their guild's schedule and either say "I can use this alt toon but I'm committted or my primary" or say "no"? Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If a raid schedule blows up because some make a mistake or don't remember (I would be a good one for that) ... isn't it just a mistake and need to better structure coordination? Scheduling one guild seems challenging, three much more so ... but it seemed the guild leaders thought it worth the effort.

For what it's worth ... I would recommend the three guild leaders or sets of guild leaders get on a private vent channel. Each give the other a chance to express their frustration and perceptions (without interruption); and then agree on a protocol that minimizes the chance that such problems will occur in the future. I do not believe that any act with malicious intent ... butperhaps the passion to do the best for ones own guild can be misinterpreted. In my experience , when leaders agree to let each other (in private) know when the piss each other off - cooperation can grow from such open and direct discussions.

After all, we have a common interest. To have the most fun on WoW that we can!