sacrifice of the Lords

[lorin]

In the Illearth War, Hile Troy states that if the Warward is not allowed to flee into Garotting Deep by Caerroil Wildwood unscathed, that he will lead the army in there anyway and sacrifice the army and the Lords, hoping that the Despiser’s army will follow and be destroyed as well. The Bloodguard, hearing Hile Troy, tell him that the Bloodguard will not allow the Lords to sacrifice themselves in such a way.

Yet the Bloodguard allowed Lord Verement, in despair, to sacrifice himself at Dooms Retreat.

What did I miss?

[Orlion]

When Lords Tamarantha and (Variol?) sacrifice themselves at Soaring Woodhelvin, the Bloodguard allow it as well, they simply were around to defend them.

I think the Bloodguard's issue with Troy's plan was that it was Troy who was going to sacrifice the Lords, it was not the Lords that were going to sacrifice themselves for the Land. They seem to be able to allow the Lords to sacrifice themselves so long as they can stick around and participate in their suicidal actions (At the end of LFB, the Bloodguard refuse to leave even though Mhoram wants them to leave in order to preserve the Staff of Law, the Second Ward, and future wards. Bannor's response seems to imply that the Bloodguard's pride would not allow them to leave a Lord since Kevin deceived them)

[Vraith]

I also think that, for the Bloodguard, a suicidal mission where you die on your feet, fighting is worthy and honorable...abject surrender founded on a baseless hope is not.

[benzss]

I think it was a matter of choice on the Lords' part. If the Lords had made the decision the bloodguard would not have been in the position to reject it, but Hile Troy was pulling the strings (or so it seemed).

[Blackhawk]

In the Illearth War, Hile Troy states that if the Warward is not allowed to flee into Garotting Deep by Caerroil Wildwood unscathed, that he will lead the army in there anyway and sacrifice the army and the Lords, hoping that the Despiser’s army will follow and be destroyed as well. The Bloodguard, hearing Hile Troy, tell him that the Bloodguard will not allow the Lords to sacrifice themselves in such a way.

Yet the Bloodguard allowed Lord Verement, in despair, to sacrifice himself at Dooms Retreat.

What did I miss?

I believe the Bloodgaurd thought running thoughtlessly into the almost sure death of Garroting Deep without a fight was a way of despair, meaning while one living being stood it would be better to die in battle than with a blade or an ax in your back... or in this case a tree limb....

Lord Verement though dispairing for the loss of his wife was willing to fight to the death allowing the army to escape sure slaughter which the bloodguard would probably admire and consider a "worthy death". thats difference i see between the two anyway. had they known of Troys plans at the time they may have decided staying and fighting in Dooms Retreat was a more sane option, or even taking their chances in Doriendor Korishev.
(Lords and Bloodguard alike)

I believe that Verement was also a decoy to make the army believe that the rest of the lords army was still inside Dooms retreat allowing for more time to escape...... I think the sacrifice was a waste but on the other hand the giant might have been more cautious entering the retreat and most of his army would have survived the trap had the giant not been so enraged by Verements death before he could get him to pledge to the despiser. then the Haruchai further enraged him by getting a deathgrip on his throat, ..I think that is why the Giant sent his troops steamrolling into the retreat.

[wayfriend]

lorin, that's a great question.

Immediately upon reading it, it reminded me of the question of Kevin Landwaster. What kind of sacrifice did Kevin make, and why is it one that we are supposed to feel was the wrong choice.

The Bloodguard certainly saw it that way.

"It is suicide. We do not speak of the Warward. But we are the Bloodguard. We will not permit the Lords to enact their own death. We failed to prevent High Lord Kevin's self-destruction. We will not fail again."

I guess, after all the discussions about Kevin here on the Watch, it all comes down to: are you sacrificing yourself in service, or are you sacrificing yourself out of despair. No matter how bad things get, you always have hope if you live to fight another day.

[benzss]

I guess, after all the discussions about Kevin here on the Watch, it all comes down to: are you sacrificing yourself in service, or are you sacrificing yourself out of despair. No matter how bad things get, you always have hope if you live to fight another day.

I think this is a perfect appraisal of the problem.

Awesome.

[Relayer]

Yes. And any Haruchai would recognize the valor of fighting Corruption. I don't think the Bloodguard saw Verement as being suicidal; after all, he could have *won*

[wayfriend]

Yes. And any Haruchai would recognize the valor of fighting Corruption. I don't think the Bloodguard saw Verement as being suicidal; after all, he could have *won*

Agreed. You could argue that Verement suffered from despair. But his sacrifice served the war and it served the warward. Perhaps Verement volunteered for it because of his despair, but the act he volunteered for was a military necessity. And in fact he did succeed at it, as his mission was only to enrage Foul's servants and cause a delay thereby.

But was Verement really suffering from despair? Or was he merely feeling insufficient?

[lorin]

Yes. And any Haruchai would recognize the valor of fighting Corruption. I don't think the Bloodguard saw Verement as being suicidal; after all, he could have *won*

Agreed. You could argue that Verement suffered from despair. But his sacrifice served the war and it served the warward. Perhaps Verement volunteered for it because of his despair, but the act he volunteered for was a military necessity. And in fact he did succeed at it, as his mission was only to enrage Foul's servants and cause a delay thereby.

But was Verement really suffering from despair? Or was he merely feeling insufficient?

my insufficiency causes me despair.

[rdhopeca]

Yes. And any Haruchai would recognize the valor of fighting Corruption. I don't think the Bloodguard saw Verement as being suicidal; after all, he could have *won*

Agreed. You could argue that Verement suffered from despair. But his sacrifice served the war and it served the warward. Perhaps Verement volunteered for it because of his despair, but the act he volunteered for was a military necessity. And in fact he did succeed at it, as his mission was only to enrage Foul's servants and cause a delay thereby.

But was Verement really suffering from despair? Or was he merely feeling insufficient?

I'm not sure it was despair. Hile Troy asked for volunteers to hold the Retreat, and Verement demanded to be the only volunteer. I think it was more a desire to strike as hard as a blow was he could in a war that could result in his death at any time. In my view, he's a hero. Who knows how many warriors he saved? Rather than die in despair, he made his death count.

[hpty603]

Yes. And any Haruchai would recognize the valor of fighting Corruption. I don't think the Bloodguard saw Verement as being suicidal; after all, he could have *won*

Agreed. You could argue that Verement suffered from despair. But his sacrifice served the war and it served the warward. Perhaps Verement volunteered for it because of his despair, but the act he volunteered for was a military necessity. And in fact he did succeed at it, as his mission was only to enrage Foul's servants and cause a delay thereby.

But was Verement really suffering from despair? Or was he merely feeling insufficient?

I'm not sure it was despair. Hile Troy asked for volunteers to hold the Retreat, and Verement demanded to be the only volunteer. I think it was more a desire to strike as hard as a blow was he could in a war that could result in his death at any time. In my view, he's a hero. Who knows how many warriors he saved? Rather than die in despair, he made his death count.

Ya, he saw himself as only one person who had the power to make a difference, whereas it would've taken probably at least 100 soldiers in a fatigued, beaten down army to have made any similar effect on Foul's army

[wayfriend]

my insufficiency causes me despair.

Aw.

"You're not insufficient, the help you're getting is."

[Relayer]

Rather than die in despair, he made his death count.

Ya know, this made me realize something... how many times have we discussed the sacrifices of Hamako, Brinn, and Honninscrave, Troy and Foamfollower... and AFAIK never thought to include Verement.

Truly, the man deserves a Ranyhyn.