Now, it's completely disingenuous to say that Tiller was killed because he was pro-choice. He was killed by a whacko that even Randall Terry has distanced himself from.The day before a Kansas abortion provider was gunned down at his church, the suspect in his slaying was chased off from another clinic he tried to vandalize, a worker there said Monday.
Scott Roeder faces a scheduled court hearing Tuesday in the weekend slaying of Dr. George Tiller, one of the few U.S. doctors who still performed late-term abortions. Associates described Roeder as a regular participant in anti-abortion demonstrations in Kansas City and Wichita, where Tiller's practice was located, but most abortion opponents disavowed him Monday.
Roeder was "a regular" in demonstrations outside Central Family Medicine in Kansas City, Kansas, a clinic worker told CNN. The worker, who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity out of fears for his safety, said Roeder's height -- over 6 feet -- made him "hard to miss."
Early Saturday morning, a worker at the clinic "actually chased after him" after spotting him trying to pour epoxy into the facility's locks two weekends in a row. Video surveillance cameras at the clinic captured Roeder on May 23, but not well enough "for any kind of conviction of any sort," the worker said.
"He hit us in 2000, the same thing -- two weekends in a row," the worker said. But Saturday, "He only got one lock glued before we nailed him."
Another clinic worker "managed to catch his license plate number," the worker said. "I reported this to federal authorities on Saturday." He said FBI agents told him nothing could be done with the information until a federal grand jury convened.
The man said he memorized the license number -- and after learning of Tiller's killing on Sunday, he found out "that the license plate number of the getaway was the same as the license plate that we had here."
Roeder, 51, was arrested about 30 miles southwest of Kansas City on Sunday, about three hours after Tiller's death. He faces possible first-degree murder charges in the killing and was being held without bond in the Sedgwick County jail, according to the sheriff's department. Video Watch panel discuss ramifications of slaying »
Abortion is one of the most contentious issues in U.S. politics, and opposition to the practice has periodically spilled over into bloodshed. Tiller and his Wichita clinic were the target of frequent protests and legal challenges, and he had survived a 1993 shooting before being gunned down while serving as an usher Sunday.
Roeder had a history of protesting at clinics where abortion is performed, one fellow protester who knew him told CNN, and he appears to have posted a message on the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue's Web site in 2007, calling for prayers to shut down Tiller's "death camp."
"Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller," the message reads.
Roeder also had been affiliated with the Freeman movement, an anti-government movement in the 1990s. In 1996, he was arrested in Kansas with explosives in his car; in court, a Shawnee County prosecutor called Roeder a "substantial threat to public safety" and said he refused to acknowledge the authority of the courts.
Roeder served 16 months in prison and eight on probation before his conviction was overturned on appeal.
Eugene Frye, who says he has known Roeder for years as an anti-tax campaigner, said just Roeder showed up at a recent abortion protest talking about this year's trial of Tiller, whom Frye called the "killer." Tiller was acquitted in March of 19 misdemeanor counts of performing unlawful procedures at his clinic, and Frye said Roeder had attended the trial. See what people are saying about Tiller's slaying »
"He just said he'd been down there, and that the trial was a sham," Frye said. But he said he was surprised that Roeder was a suspect in Tiller's death, saying he never spoke of any kind of violence. Video Tiller describes the philosophy of his clinic in 1999 »
But Regina Dinwiddie, a 54-year-old grandmother, said Roeder once confronted a doctor at a Planned Parenthood center, telling the physician, "Now I know what you look like."
"Scott came out and told us that he had done that, and we all said, 'Scott, you better leave or they are gonna get after you,'" Dinwiddie said. "Next thing, all these people come rushing out of the place, all worried. Scott was standing up for what he believed in."
Dinwiddie said Tiller's slaying was "absolutely" justified.
"He forfeited his life by taking the lives of innocent children," she said.
And in Iowa, Dan Holman, of the anti-abortion group Missionaries to the Preborn, told CNN that Tiller's death was something to "cheer."
"I was cheered by it, because I knew he wouldn't be killing any more babies," Holman said.
Holman protested a May 17 speech by President Obama in which the president urged Americans to find common ground on abortion. He told CNN that "all abortionists are deserving of death, and they are not the only ones. There are politicians and judges, and others who support this murder are also deserving of death."
Asked to name names, he said, "George Bush, Barack Obama -- any politician that gives our tax money to Planned Parenthood and organizations that kill babies or participate in the killing of children deserve the same penalty."
But the killing drew condemnation from national anti-abortion organizations. The Rev. Gary Cass, director of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, said, "This guy is not one of us, and if he thinks he is, then he is deluded."
"I and so many others have been fighting in the movement within the parameters of the law, and all this does is paint us in a broad, awful stroke," Cass said.
Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry told reporters in Washington that Tiller's killing was "wrong, period," and that anti-abortion leaders "are not responsible for George Tiller's death." But he added, "George Tiller was a mass murderer and horrifically, he reaped what he sowed."
"We in the pro-life movement must not shrink from our duty to continue to use words that are highly charged, to do protests, to expose these abortionists, and to work for the complete eradication of child killing," he said.
Clarence Roeder, the suspect's uncle, told CNN affiliate KMBC that Tiller's death was "a tragedy for the Tiller family." And Scott Roeder's ex-wife, Lindsey, told CNN that the killing was "a selfish thing to do."
If he was behind the killing, she said, Roeder "didn't think of his son. He didn't think of the consequences this would have for anybody, his family or anyone in that church or in Dr. Tiller's family."
During the 1990s, three doctors who performed abortions were slain in high-profile cases. See all abortion-related attacks since 1993 »
In 1998, a sniper killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in his Amherst, New York, home. Anti-abortion activist James Kopp was later arrested in France and is serving life in prison.
In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and a volunteer escort were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida. Paul Hill, a former minister, was convicted in the killings and executed in 2003.
In 1993, another doctor, David Gunn, was shot and killed outside another Pensacola clinic. His killer, Michael Griffin, is serving a life sentence.
In addition, a nurse at a Birmingham, Alabama, clinic was maimed and an off-duty police officer was killed in a 1998 bombing by Eric Rudolph, who included abortion among his list of anti-government grievances.
Rudolph admitted to that attack and three other bombings -- including the 1996 attack on the Olympic Games in Atlanta, Georgia -- and is serving life in prison.
That's a little like saying it's disingenuous to say Abraham Lincoln was killed for being anti-Confederacy. This guy was clearly a whacko, but he was a whacko who virulently hated abortion. The assassin's record shows this wasn't a random killing in the street; it was an assassination by an assassin with a record of political radicalism. Tillman was a rightly controversial figure, and it's because of his actions pertaining specifically to abortion that he was assassinated.Now, it's completely disingenuous to say that Tiller was killed because he was pro-choice. He was killed by a whacko that even Randall Terry has distanced himself from.
editing confusion about the Lincoln quoteLord Mhoram wrote:Lord Mhoram in the right-wing extremism thread wrote:Ervin is, incidentally, a longtime, prominent, and outspoken DHS critic.Clark Kent Ervin, former Bush administration Homeland Security inspector general wrote:My take on it is that it isn’t much of a story. I’m quite sure there’s been an update in threat reporting indicating that right-wing groups are more likely to commit violence than before, now that there’s a black president (and one whom they perceive to be especially left-wing). And, this, surely, is only exacerbated by the economic situation. And, with the White House confirming (surprisingly, I think) that they will, indeed make immigration reform a top early priority, I’m sure they’re even more up in arms (no pun in tended), along with the whole gun craze thing. So, I completely understand why DHS would be putting out reports like this.
That said, I completely understand the White House desire to downplay the report. The president, commendably, has never wanted to racialize things gratuitously, and I’m sure they also don’t want to suggest that they’re more concerned about his personal safety than that of the nation as a whole. And, I’m sure that there are analysts there (at D.H.S.) looking at left-wing groups like eco-terrorists and animal rights people (I know for a fact that they’ve testified about it in the past). But it’s clear that, especially now, they’re less of a danger because they surely perceive this administration and Congress to be more sympathetic than the Bush administration and its Congresses, and neither group has ever carried out anything remotely like the McVeigh attack. So, D.H.S. is doing its job, and the White House is doing its.
No kidding everyone is backing away from this and refuting any claims of a relationship to this terrorist.wayfriend wrote:So "Tiller the Baby Killer" was gunned down by a ... *cough* ... "pro-life" activist.
Six such murders during the Clinton years. None during the Bush administration. Obama is inaugurated, and we're back in business.
Can there be any doubt that such "right-wing extremism" is induced by the fear that a pro-abortion administration is going to crank up the baby killing? (Before you say no, think about the bullet shortage.)
So lets monger the fear. It's harmless.
... Or, rather, no one can blame you for what happens. Close enough.
When Will Right Wing Violence Be Terrorism?
No, it's not. The Left has demonized the Right for decades. The Right as done the same to the Left. It is illogical to say this is the natural result of demonization. If that were the case, we'd see this natural result happen a hundred times a day. Demonization goes on everywhere. Hell, you are demonizing the pro-lifers right now. Should we expect LM to shoot one of us because it's a "natural" result of your unfounded accusations?But this is the natural result of sustained demonization over a period of years.
You're fond of your little conspiracy theories, aren't you? Well, I've got one to match you: I believe your unfounded accusations and illogical conclusions are a way to intimidate the Right into not expressing their views, because expressing their views will be characterized by you as "sustained demonization" which leads "naturally" to murder. You've even compared conservative free speech acts to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. You say they deserve to feel the consequences of their actions? For exercising their 1st amendment rights, they deserve what, exactly?. . . they know how to motivate others to do the dirty work without leaving a concrete trail.
LM, I think you're disagreeing with me just to disagree with me.Lord Mhoram wrote:He was killed for being an abortion doctor, albeit a specific kind of one. Abortion in the United States is a political issue, and for him to have been that kind of doctor means he's at least implicitly taking a political stand. Indeed, Planned Parenthood calls him "an integral part of our community." If that's not pro-choice coupled with practicing in medicine the most extreme logical conclusion of the pro-choice position (late-term abortions), I don't know what it is. This is a pretty simple and straightforward causation.
I don't see the point of the distinction. Like I said, he was killed for being an abortion doctor by an assassin with a record of pro-life political activism. So this was a political murder. That's my point. Yes, he was killed so that he "wouldn't be able to abort (kill) any more viable fetuses (babies)," to which I would add: by a radical whose opposition to the process of late-term abortion is not only ethical but also, inevitably, political.Of course he's pro-choice, but that wasn't why he was specifically targeted.
I was clear.Malik23 wrote:Are you really saying that people voicing their opinions is systematic domestic terrorism? I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but it seems like your post is saying this. Please clarify.
That's an example if the irresponsible rhetoric that got Tillman killed.Malik23 wrote:Are you implying that there is anything at all similar about a man killing a murderer of 1000s of viable babies and the mastermind of 9/11?
Tiller was a baby killer. That's how he made his money.
Nope. You hypothesize that they are both the same, and then when the result is different you claim its not relevant.Malik23 wrote:No, it's not. The Left has demonized the Right for decades. The Right as done the same to the Left. It is illogical to say this is the natural result of demonization.
It's not a secret. I think that anyone who inspires people to commit terrorism in the name of a political issue should absolutely change their ways and conduct their political agenda in a less harmful way. There it is, in black and white. You don't have to believe, you can now know.Malik23 wrote:I believe your unfounded accusations and illogical conclusions are a way to intimidate the Right into not expressing their views,
Mr. O’Reilly, a vocal opponent of abortion, often called him “Tiller the baby killer” for performing late-term abortions and said repeatedly that he had “blood on his hands.”
... Within nine hours of Dr. Tiller’s death, Salon magazine had catalogued references to him on 29 episodes of “The O’Reilly Factor” from 2005 to 2009. In one, Mr. O’Reilly talks about him and the lawmakers who supported his “business of destruction,” saying, “I wouldn’t want to be these people if there is a Judgment Day.”
... On Monday, Media Matters for America, a left-wing group that catalogs what it calls “conservative hate speech,” published a 2006 clip from Mr. O’Reilly’s radio show in which he said, “If I could get my hands on Tiller,” followed quickly by: “Well, you know. Can’t be vigilantes. Can’t do that. It’s just a figure of speech.” [link]
That's a really good point.benzss wrote:The only people politicising abortion are the ones who want to make it political. Many people see it as a pure ethical dispute.
O'Reilly said something vaguely controversial?!wayfriend wrote:Mr. O’Reilly, a vocal opponent of abortion, often called him “Tiller the baby killer” for performing late-term abortions and said repeatedly that he had “blood on his hands.”
... Within nine hours of Dr. Tiller’s death, Salon magazine had catalogued references to him on 29 episodes of “The O’Reilly Factor” from 2005 to 2009. In one, Mr. O’Reilly talks about him and the lawmakers who supported his “business of destruction,” saying, “I wouldn’t want to be these people if there is a Judgment Day.”
... On Monday, Media Matters for America, a left-wing group that catalogs what it calls “conservative hate speech,” published a 2006 clip from Mr. O’Reilly’s radio show in which he said, “If I could get my hands on Tiller,” followed quickly by: “Well, you know. Can’t be vigilantes. Can’t do that. It’s just a figure of speech.” [link]
I think the political ubiquity of abortion in the United States puts the onus upon you in this argument to prove to me that Tiller's murder was apolitical. Furthermore, violence is almost always political, as has been argued at length by most political theorists. For example, a standard text on the subject of violence as political can posit uncontroversially, "According to modern political thought, violence is the ultima ratio of politics. The basic subject of modern politics, in the sense of the foundational understanding of what politics is ultimately all about, is consequently violence" (link).LM, just because an issue has been politicized by society doesn't mean that every action performed by individuals pertaining to that issue is itself a political act.
I would put it a different way, as I already have above: Tiller's actions were the logical conclusion of the pro-choice position. That's almost a condemnation, you'll notice, rendering your subtle accusations that I agreed with the man irrelevant. But it's also, I think, a fact.This guy transcended the realm of politics to the realm of action.
This is a curious statement. It assumes that the political is an abstract and metaphysical entity. It's not. Politics is action.He found that politics no longer worked, in his view, so he stepped outside of the realm of politics to the realm of direct action.
I'm not convinced by this argument, but that's for another thread.Lord Mhoram wrote: benzss,
Again, like violence, ethics is inseparable from politics. Ethics (not morality) is not metaphysical, it is forged in practice. When I say I am against injustice, I'm making a vague statement. When I say I am against abortion, I'm talking about something in the real world, in society. Therefore, politics applies.
