Historical and Religious Views of the Roots of Christianity

[rusmeister]

My apologies Fist!
I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't ever read it! It's mainly that it got shifted into low priority. I really may have time this summer (I'm a teacher and only work part-time - but my own kids take up the bulk of the difference. In the meantime, what I said about taking the time stands.

On that last post, I was just turning the tables. I already know and have given up hoping that you guys would read any of my stuff. (Consider your own response to TEM, your refusal to even discuss it, and just saying that it was "bad".) I hope I have not even appeared to go so far regarding anything Furl's or Stephen wrote.

[Fist and Faith]

No, I don't think you said anything negative about them. You simply don't embrace the same Truth they do. So why read so much of it? I'm just saying I'm in exactly the same boat with TEM. Should Furls demand you go through every post with her, explaining what problems you have with each part you don't agree with, saying what you dislike about the style of writing, etc etc, and giving her the chance to change you to her way of believing? That would, of course, be a waste of time. I think we all already know that your beliefs would not change, and it might even create hard feelings. And that's exactly how it is with me and TEM.

[Furls Fire]

*sigh*

Sweet mercy...my head hurts.

Well, I certainly will never force anyone to go there, nor will I ever force anyone to believe what I believe.

I'll say this tho, my faith goes way beyond just "personal experience". My faith comes from His Presence in everything I do, in everything I say, in the people I love...My faith surrounds me, enwraps me, gives me the strength to walk the path He has laid before me. And that path has been laden with excrutiating pain and abundant joy.

I remember a scene from West Wing, when Chinese Christains were seeking asylum in the United States and Jed Bartlett asked the priest who the leader of his church was. And this was his reply...

JHIN-WEI: The head of our parish is an 84 year old man named Wen-Ling. He’s been beaten and imprisoned many times. The head of our church is Jesus Christ.

BARTLET: Can you name any of Jesus’ disciples? If you can’t, that’s okay. I usually can’t remember the names of my kids, or for that matter...

JHIN-WEI: Peter, Andrew, John, Phillip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Thaddeus, Simon, Judas and James. Mr. President, Christianity is not demonstrated through a recitation of facts. You’re seeking evidence of faith, a wholehearted acceptance of God’s promise for a better world. “For we hold that man is justified by faith alone” is what St. Paul said. “Justified by faith alone.” Faith is the true... uh, I’m trying to... shibboleth. Faith is the true shibboleth.

And that...is my stance. I don't feel the need, nor the desire to label myself as anything but a Christain. I was raised Catholic, if that is what you want to know. But, it really doesn't make any difference to me. To me, religion isn't the driving force behind my faith. Jesus Christ is. And if He, Himself, told me to, I would go back to the church without hesitation. But, with all I have seen and done and lived...I think He is just as pleased that I am where I am. After all, He's the one that put me here.

Oh, and my brother...from the time he could voice what he wanted to be when he grew up, he wanted to be a priest. It was Jesus that turned him from that path. It was Jesus who told him that his time here with us would be too short to go into the priesthood. Stephen helped many find their way back to Him, and...he still is. My brother was/is holy. He was touched by Grace. That is why I invited you to meet him and the only way to do that is to read his journals. But, like I said, I would never force anyone go there, I only thought that if you really wanted to understand me, what better way...

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, a great WW scene, for sure!!

[rusmeister]

*sigh*

Sweet mercy...my head hurts.

Well, I certainly will never force anyone to go there, nor will I ever force anyone to believe what I believe.

I'll say this tho, my faith goes way beyond just "personal experience". My faith comes from His Presence in everything I do, in everything I say, in the people I love...My faith surrounds me, enwraps me, gives me the strength to walk the path He has laid before me. And that path has been laden with excrutiating pain and abundant joy.

I remember a scene from West Wing, when Chinese Christains were seeking asylum in the United States and Jed Bartlett asked the priest who the leader of his church was. And this was his reply...

JHIN-WEI: The head of our parish is an 84 year old man named Wen-Ling. He’s been beaten and imprisoned many times. The head of our church is Jesus Christ.

BARTLET: Can you name any of Jesus’ disciples? If you can’t, that’s okay. I usually can’t remember the names of my kids, or for that matter...

JHIN-WEI: Peter, Andrew, John, Phillip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Thaddeus, Simon, Judas and James. Mr. President, Christianity is not demonstrated through a recitation of facts. You’re seeking evidence of faith, a wholehearted acceptance of God’s promise for a better world. “For we hold that man is justified by faith alone” is what St. Paul said. “Justified by faith alone.” Faith is the true... uh, I’m trying to... shibboleth. Faith is the true shibboleth.

And that...is my stance. I don't feel the need, nor the desire to label myself as anything but a Christain. I was raised Catholic, if that is what you want to know. But, it really doesn't make any difference to me. To me, religion isn't the driving force behind my faith. Jesus Christ is. And if He, Himself, told me to, I would go back to the church without hesitation. But, with all I have seen and done and lived...I think He is just as pleased that I am where I am. After all, He's the one that put me here.

Oh, and my brother...from the time he could voice what he wanted to be when he grew up, he wanted to be a priest. It was Jesus that turned him from that path. It was Jesus who told him that his time here with us would be too short to go into the priesthood. Stephen helped many find their way back to Him, and...he still is. My brother was/is holy. He was touched by Grace. That is why I invited you to meet him and the only way to do that is to read his journals. But, like I said, I would never force anyone go there, I only thought that if you really wanted to understand me, what better way...

Thanks, Furls.
I have no reason to think that your brother is not holy (speaking in the eternal tense using the present simple); indeed, this last Sunday, for the Orthodox Church, was the Sunday of all Saints - including (especially) the ones that are known only to God, and I would be very pleased if God considered your brother one of His Saints (in the Orthodox/Catholic/ancient sense). I hope the same things for Lewis and Chesterton, neither of whom were Orthodox, so the orthodox Church cannot proclaim their sainthood - because it doesn't know that which is known to God alone. (On the same basis I hope He will save my father, who died as a lapsed Catholic - as far as I know, without confession/unction, etc.) I can't pray to Stephen as a saint - because the Church has not declared him one, but there is nothing wrong with praying (talking, in protestant parlance) to him and asking him to pray for us - if he IS a saint, then "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much". As Lewis said, there are some people we would be tempted to bow down before.

The "label" does mean something, and dismissing it makes the whole concept of "Christian" meaningless, as it becomes something defined by the individual; that is what I meant by purely personal , as opposed to corporate faith. If your faith is defined by "everything you do and say..." it is personal, in a literal sense as you described it). If it is not corporate than it is purely personal, and that's what I would have problems with, if you know what "prelest" is (False spiritual knowledge leads to spiritual delusion (Russian prelest, Greek plani) which is the opposite of sobriety. Sobriety meaning full consciousness and self-realization (enstasis) called true spiritual knowledge or true gnosis)*, and our incredible capacity for self-deception. ("The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...") I make no judgement about your situation, just so that's clear. Even an Orthodox monk or hesychast is not immune from prelest. No one is. That's why the corporate faith (which you seem to identify with 'label') is important.

By the way, it's totally OT, but there's this awesome icon of the Chinese martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion I'd love to show you, if I could figure out how to successfully post images here.

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoria

[Furls Fire]

I like to believe that Stephen is a Saint, or one of the "blessed ones" as a Deacon at the Catholic School he attended told him once. He was beautiful, and he was wise, and he helped many people. And when I see him now, his beauty is beyond words and he nearly brings me to my knees. And where he is...Ah, it is glorious and Light radiants around him.

As far as the label goes...I didn't mean that it means nothing. I just meant that from where I am, it is secondary. "Corporate Faith" as you put it, is not, to me, the Way. And maybe I am wrong, hasn't been the first time and most assuredly won't be the last, but "Corporate Faith" cares more about power, than it does about bringing people back to God/Jesus. That wasn't more evident to me than when the Catholic church decided to protect abusers instead of the children they abused. I'm sorry, but to me, that means the "True" message of Jesus Christ was lost somewhere along the way. When "image" takes precedence over the protection of children, God's children...then there is really something very very wrong. So, if you want to call my faith "personal", well I say this...so be it. It's gotten me this far, and I pray that it will take me, in the end, to the arms of the Father and His Son. I have no reason to believe otherwise. It got my brother there..

[Fist and Faith]

Is this it, rus?

[rusmeister]

Yes, thanks a lot, Fist!

For me, the awesome thing is that I can pray to these people (again, translated as "talk" for Protestant readers) and ask them to pray for me to God - see what I said about saints above - basically as members of the Family - which is a wonderful denial of the barriers of race, space and time.

Moses the Black has some really good ones, too - my favorite is of him carrying a basket on his back and a paper in front.

[rusmeister]

"Corporate Faith" cares more about power, than it does about bringing people back to God/Jesus. That wasn't more evident to me than when the Catholic church decided to protect abusers instead of the children they abused. I'm sorry, but to me, that means the "True" message of Jesus Christ was lost somewhere along the way. When "image" takes precedence over the protection of children, God's children...then there is really something very very wrong.

I certainly agree with your last statement - however, I think that there are deep and powerful answers - certainly in Orthodoxy, and also, I think, from the Catholic Church - to your concern and perception, particularly regarding power. (My own view happens to accommodate your view of the Catholic Church - if nowhere else on the simple basis that the Roman Church broke from the Church established by Christ and the Apostles 1,000 years ago, and that definite wrongs were a result of that, ranging from indulgences and the Inquisition...to the scandals you hear in the news - but at the same time recognizes that power grabbing doesn't really have anything in particular to do with it (except, perhaps, in the minds of certain messed-up individuals - who are the exception, not the rule. You will find sin in any church or Church. The question is, is the sin a result of the very structure, design and organization of the Church, or is it just sinful individuals? (in which case you cannot blame a Church that predicts that all are sinners)

All of that leads back to my comment on the necessity and primacy of corporate faith over individual beliefs.

[Seven Words]

"Corporate Faith" cares more about power, than it does about bringing people back to God/Jesus. That wasn't more evident to me than when the Catholic church decided to protect abusers instead of the children they abused. I'm sorry, but to me, that means the "True" message of Jesus Christ was lost somewhere along the way. When "image" takes precedence over the protection of children, God's children...then there is really something very very wrong.

I certainly agree with your last statement - however, I think that there are deep and powerful answers - certainly in Orthodoxy, and also, I think, from the Catholic Church - to your concern and perception, particularly regarding power. (My own view happens to accommodate your view of the Catholic Church - if nowhere else on the simple basis that the Roman Church broke from the Church established by Christ and the Apostles 1,000 years ago, and that definite wrongs were a result of that, ranging from indulgences and the Inquisition...to the scandals you hear in the news - but at the same time recognizes that power grabbing doesn't really have anything in particular to do with it (except, perhaps, in the minds of certain messed-up individuals - who are the exception, not the rule. You will find sin in any church or Church. The question is, is the sin a result of the very structure, design and organization of the Church, or is it just sinful individuals? (in which case you cannot blame a Church that predicts that all are sinners)

All of that leads back to my comment on the necessity and primacy of corporate faith over individual beliefs.

Necessity and primacy of corporate faith over individual beliefs.....

Sounds to me like an abrogation of conscience. Corruption is inherent in ANY organization, no matter how noble it's core values. Such "primacy" makes it all the easier to conceal. I'm not saying your Church is wholly corrupt...nor mostly. I am absolutely certain that most of the leaders in the Orthodox Church are sincere and devout....as are most of the leaders of every major faith. I'm simply saying that this dogma (for want of a better term, NOT meant in a disparaging way) makes it CONDUCIVE to corruption.

[rusmeister]

"Corporate Faith" cares more about power, than it does about bringing people back to God/Jesus. That wasn't more evident to me than when the Catholic church decided to protect abusers instead of the children they abused. I'm sorry, but to me, that means the "True" message of Jesus Christ was lost somewhere along the way. When "image" takes precedence over the protection of children, God's children...then there is really something very very wrong.

I certainly agree with your last statement - however, I think that there are deep and powerful answers - certainly in Orthodoxy, and also, I think, from the Catholic Church - to your concern and perception, particularly regarding power. (My own view happens to accommodate your view of the Catholic Church - if nowhere else on the simple basis that the Roman Church broke from the Church established by Christ and the Apostles 1,000 years ago, and that definite wrongs were a result of that, ranging from indulgences and the Inquisition...to the scandals you hear in the news - but at the same time recognizes that power grabbing doesn't really have anything in particular to do with it (except, perhaps, in the minds of certain messed-up individuals - who are the exception, not the rule. You will find sin in any church or Church. The question is, is the sin a result of the very structure, design and organization of the Church, or is it just sinful individuals? (in which case you cannot blame a Church that predicts that all are sinners)

All of that leads back to my comment on the necessity and primacy of corporate faith over individual beliefs.

Necessity and primacy of corporate faith over individual beliefs.....

Sounds to me like an abrogation of conscience. Corruption is inherent in ANY organization, no matter how noble it's core values. Such "primacy" makes it all the easier to conceal. I'm not saying your Church is wholly corrupt...nor mostly. I am absolutely certain that most of the leaders in the Orthodox Church are sincere and devout....as are most of the leaders of every major faith. I'm simply saying that this dogma (for want of a better term, NOT meant in a disparaging way) makes it CONDUCIVE to corruption.

I quite agree - with one exception.
If that organization actually was instituted by God, knowing of human frailty and corruption, then its "core values" are the correct reflection of what man is and what he ought to be.

So in most cases you (and Furl's and everyone for whom the first thing that comes up - re organized religion and corporate faith - is the concern about corruption) would actually be right - except for that one case - which is what I maintain.

I'd also put to you that modern secular education focuses its teaching of religion (especially via history) on corruption, guaranteeing that for most people, especially those who go through the public system, the first thing that will jump into their mind, the first association with organized religion, will be corruption. This will naturally bias the mind against serious consideration of organized religion - the more so because it is so often true.

(Edit) I'll add that if you do find that correct expression of the true nature of man, what he is and ought to be - then there would be no abrogation of conscience in the acceptance of that expression - only a clear recognition of where we do regularly abrogate and dull our consciences by deceiving ourselves into thinking that something, that we sense is wrong through the ever fainter calls of our conscience, is right.