now this was the Linden I liked........

[lorin]

"You use guilt the same way you use leprosy. You want people to reject you, stay away from you - make a victim out of you. So you can recapture your innocence"

"Covenant stared at her in silence. Her judgement hurt him like a demonstration of mendacity. Was that what he was doing - giving her a moral reason to repudiate him because she was unmoved by the physical reason of his leprosy? Was he so much afraid of being helped or trusted? Cared about?"

Spoiler

Linden, in her way, became a victim of just this as much as did Covenant. She is using her son as her path to martyrdom and isolation. It forces the people that care for her away from her, martyrs herself for her son.

I think we all have that 'skill' to push people away to some degree. Some people use arrogance to push people away, some become a martyr. Either way isolates us and places us alone on a pedestal.

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

I think we all have that 'skill' to push people away to some degree. Some people use arrogance to push people away, some become a martyr. Either way isolates us and places us alone on a pedestal.

It all boils down to selfishness. Putting oneself at the center of the Universe at one or another extreme. Either arrogantly grandios, or the flip side of the coin, the turd at the center of the Universe. Covenant and Linden both alternately wallow in the latter.

Both Covenant's and Linden's self-loathing are Foul's bread and butter.

[wayfriend]

Linden was wrong there. In my opinion. But not so wrong that Covenant could recognize that she was wrong. In part because he didn't clearly see the real reason himself.

IMO, Covenant is weary of being shunned. And he's too principled to operate falsely with people. So he tests. He rubs his leprosy in peoples faces so that, if they're going to turn away from him, they turn away from him sooner rather than later. Before he gets attached to them. It's a form of taking control. And its probably not something he is fully conscious of.

Linden's almost understands. She is right that Covenant tries to get people to reject him. She just is wrong about one thing - that what Covenant desires is not that they turn away, but that they don't.

[CovenantJr]

Good post, and I agree with you in part - but I think that becomes more the case as time goes on. I think at first Covenant makes himself repellent to people because he fears he can only fail/burden/shame them. And yes, maybe it is a form of arrogance, to assume he's so important. But we are all the centre of the world in our own eyes, whether we admit it or not.

[Earthfriend]

"You use guilt the same way you use leprosy. You want people to reject you, stay away from you - make a victim out of you. So you can recapture your innocence"

"Covenant stared at her in silence. Her judgement hurt him like a demonstration of mendacity. Was that what he was doing - giving her a moral reason to repudiate him because she was unmoved by the physical reason of his leprosy? Was he so much afraid of being helped or trusted? Cared about?"

Is this quote taken from when Covenant first tells Linden about his assault of Lena? I think it is, and based on that belief, I think part of what Covenant was trying to do here was warn Linden of the dangers of caring for him. He is being as honest as he dares with her, giving her every chance to withhold the love he so craves. And because he is so desirous of that love, he does not tell her the whole truth - that he is already dead. (He would call himself cowardly, not I.) That end was assured the moment he put himself under the knife for Joan.

And he is back in the Land, where nearly everyone he ever loved or cared about died as a consequence of his being. (At least, I believe that is how he perceives it.) Small wonder he tries to push her away.

Linden, in her way, became a victim of just this as much as did Covenant. She is using her son as her path to martyrdom and isolation. It forces the people that care for her away from her, martyrs herself for her son.

Not having read the any of the books from the Last Chrons, I know nothing of Linden's son, yet. (In fact, I'm assuming that is where the refference to Linden's son comes from...geez, I hope I didn't miss that in the first two Chrons, or I'll feel real silly, lol...) But I agree with you that both Linden and Covenant are adept at abrogating responsibilty for the plight of others, rightly or wrongly.

[deer of the dawn]

Linden was wrong there. In my opinion. But not so wrong that Covenant could recognize that she was wrong. In part because he didn't clearly see the real reason himself.

IMO, Covenant is weary of being shunned. And he's too principled to operate falsely with people. So he tests. He rubs his leprosy in peoples faces so that, if they're going to turn away from him, they turn away from him sooner rather than later. Before he gets attached to them. It's a form of taking control. And its probably not something he is fully conscious of.

Linden's almost understands. She is right that Covenant tries to get people to reject him. She just is wrong about one thing - that what Covenant desires is not that they turn away, but that they don't.

I get what you are saying, but I can't really think of any point where he is honest about that. He asks himself,

Was he so much afraid of being helped or trusted? Cared about?

I think the answer is yes, that is why he makes no offer for intimacy, accepting it only from those who are willful enough to flaunt his deflections-- like Foamfollower, like Linden.

[wayfriend]

And because he is so desirous of that love, he does not tell her the whole truth - that he is already dead.

Hmm... reading the comments on this thread, I now wonder if Linden's "You want people to reject you" comment actually encourages Covenant to stop giving her reasons to reject him ... and actually encourages him to omit telling her about the truth.

I think the answer is yes, that is why he makes no offer for intimacy, accepting it only from those who are willful enough to flaunt his deflections-- like Foamfollower, like Linden.

But, in the end, he does accept it. Which, to my mind, shows that he wants to accept it.

One of the overarching themes of the Chronicles is acceptance of all of your self, the good and the bad, and that this makes you stronger and more able than rejecting your bad side and accepting only your good side.

And Covenant, although not perfect, has presumably made good progress down this path after the first Chronicles.

Therefore, I try to see Covenant in this light. He's accepted that people shun him, and he knows that it hurts when they do, and he is scared that they will. So he's worked out his own way to let people in. First he makes sure they're not easily put off by him.

Linden, on the other hand, hasn't gone down that road yet. So she may not recognize Covenant's ways for what they are. She suspects weakness and victimization behind everything. Until she learns to accept her parents.

[Earthfriend]

One of the overarching themes of the Chronicles is acceptance of all of your self, the good and the bad, and that this makes you stronger and more able than rejecting your bad side and accepting only your good side.

I really like this point, and moreover would add that the answer Covenant finds, the alloy he becomes between venom and argent power in WGW, supports Wayfriend's point.

[lorin]

Not having read the any of the books from the Last Chrons, I know nothing of Linden's son, yet. (In fact, I'm assuming that is where the refference to Linden's son comes from...geez, I hope I didn't miss that in the first two Chrons, or I'll feel real silly, lol...) But I agree with you that both Linden and Covenant are adept at abrogating responsibilty for the plight of others, rightly or wrongly.

I thought I put a spoiler on the son thing but it seems to be gone. I am really sorry! I fixed it.

[Rocksister]

Well put Wayfriend. Bully for you!

[Earthfriend]

I thought I put a spoiler on the son thing but it seems to be gone. I am really sorry! I fixed it.

No problem, Iorin. *insert smiley face here*