What Should Hile Troy Have Done?

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duchess of malfi
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Troy (not to mention the Land) was actually lucky in that things could have been a lot worse. The Giant Raver's army was so large, he could have easily bottled up the Warward in Doom's Retreat while he could have sent out large numbers of other troops (ur-viles mounted upon kresh, perhaps) to decimate a virtually unprotected Land.

Troy was a failure in that he had no contingency plans. When his plans failed he fell apart emotionally, and threw himself upon Mhoram. It was Mhoram who actually came up with a way to save what was left of the Warward, though Troy did volunteer to pay the price (I am more than happy to give him credit for that.)

He was a lot like Kevin -- and Elena -- in that he made a huge and irrevocable gamble that failed. Well, it would have failed in his case, too, if it hadn't been for Mhoram...

All three are tragic figures to me. All three love the Land -- and all three were blinded in making their decisions, and ended up hurting that which they most loved. :(
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Post by Thaale »

This analysis is way off base.

When his plans failed he fell apart emotionally, and threw himself upon Mhoram. It was Mhoram who actually came up with a way to save what was left of the Warward,

That’s not how it happened at all. It was all Troy’s idea to lead Flesharrower into Garrotting Deep. Mhoram had no idea what was going on. Troy knew all along he’d need Mhoram to convince Caerroil Wildwood to let them through. But he never fell apart.

He was a lot like Kevin -- and Elena -- in that he made a huge and irrevocable gamble that failed.

No. Each of them despaired, and each of them thought more passion was the answer. Troy never despaired, never stopped planning. Did he momentarily lose heart at times, as when he heard from Rue how much time had been lost? Of course? But never for more than an irrelevantly brief period. Then he was back to trying to salvage the situation. He never tried to smash the board Kevin-style.

If you think Troy “failed,” you must have read some other series. I’m pretty sure it was Fleshharrower who failed.

Well, it would have failed in his case, too, if it hadn't been for Mhoram...

Or without Amorine, for that matter. Or his army. Yes, he needed Mhoram, but he knew he had Mhoram. Properly using your resources is a sign of good generalship. That’s like saying Covenant would have failed without Foamfollower and Linden, or if he weren’t the white gold.

All three are tragic figures to me. All three love the Land -- and all three were blinded in making their decisions, and ended up hurting that which they most loved.

Nothing could be further from the truth than to lump Troy in with those two. What hurt did Troy do or cause? Did he waste the Land? Break the Law of Death?
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Post by duchess of malfi »

He eventually ended up breaking the Lawof Life, and I believe we have yet to see what will become of that. :(

Though in that breaking, he did buy more time for the Land. :)
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Post by Thaale »

He eventually ended up breaking the Law of Life

Yes, but it’s hard to form any but the most indirect link between Caer Caveral’s action of 3,500 years later and the original war plans of Hile Troy.

Apparently, breaking the Law of Life was a necessary though terribly flawed corrective to the Law of Death being broken. Better by far that both remain intact, but once the one was broken the other had to go.

I assume that by the end of the Final Chronicles things will be placed on a better footing, Law-wise.
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Post by Reynard Ashmelayn »

If Troy's mistake was giving his active support to the Land, then should Covenant not have failed in The Power that Preserves and later in the Second Chronicles?

"I'm going to bring Foul's Creche down around his ears" (probably not an exact quote) sounds like pretty active support to me. (Actually, it sounds like bluster, except for the fact that he went ahead and did it)
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Post by duchess of malfi »

from The Illearth War:
"Foul wanted the Lords to trust me because he knew what kind of man I am. Dear God! It doesn't matter how much I hate him. He knew I'm the kind of man who backs into corners where just being failable is the same thing as treachery.

But you forget it isn't up to me anymore. I've done my part - I've put you where you haven't got any choice. Now Mhoram has got to save you. It's on his head."

Quaan appeared torn between his dismay for the Warward and his concern for Troy. "Even a Lord may be defeated," he replied gruffly.

"I'm not talking about a Lord," Troy rasped. "I'm talking about Mhoram."

In his weariness, Lord Mhoram ached to deny this, to refuse the burden. He said, "Warmark, of course I will do all that lies within my strength. But if Lord Foul has chosen you for the work of our destruction - ah, then, my friend, all aid will not avail. The burden of this plan will return to you at the last."

"No." Troy kept his face toward the fire, as if reliving the acid burn which had blinded him. "You've given your whole life to the Land, and you're going to give it now."

"The Despiser knows me well," Mhoram breathed. "He ridicules me in his dreams." He could hear echoes of that belittling mirth, but he kept them at a distance. "Do not mistake me Warmark. I do not flinch from this burden. I accept it. On Kevin's Watch I made my promise - and you dared this plan because of that promise. You have not done ill. But I must speak of what is in my heart. You are the Warmark. I believe that the command of this fate must finally return to you.
Hile Troy knew his plan would not work as soon as he saw the size of the Giant Raver's Army from the top of Kevin's Watch. His first instinctive reaction was to attempt suicide by trying to throw himself off of the top of the Watch.

He then tried to recover his plan a bit, by allowing one of the Lords to face the Giant Raver alone with his Bloodguard (essentially a suiceide mision) to cover the retreat of the Warward out into the desert (with not enough food or water). They are assailed by very fell magic in the ruins there, and Troy loses his Land-given site, as well as falling apart emotionally (though, granted, falling apart emotionally was helped along by the Vortex of trepidation).

They end up in a place where no one has ever come back from alive -- the forest of Garroting Deep. They are trapped between the huge opposing army and the forbidden forest. What is left of the warward is being slaugtered. Mhoram has to save what is left of the Warward, though hIle Troy, as the quotes indicate, did indeed pay the price.

Without Mhoram figuring out how to call the Forestal, the entire Warward would have been killed, with no gains at all for that sacrifice.
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Post by Reynard Ashmelayn »

I don't understand how that supports that it was OK for Covenant to actively support the land, but not for Troy.

EDIT: I know I'm seeming stubborn, but it seems to me that there HAS to be something Troy could have done...Donaldson's writing is always full of hidden messages for the reader to apply to their own life. "You've got to be Superman to win" doesn't fit the mold.
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Post by Thaale »

You’re correct that he did momentarily despair when he saw the size of Fleshharrower’s army.

But you don’t give Troy enough credit for recovering from his lapse. As you acknowledge, the collapse of Doom’s Retreat was part of a calculated delaying action. So was the retreat to Doriendor Corishev, Troy’s stand there, and slipping the bulk of his forces out the back door while a few volunteers stayed behind to distract Fleshharower.

They don’t merely “end up” at Garroting Deep accidentally; that was Troy’s last plan. That was the whole point of the delaying action in the Retreat and in the city.
“Our position is desperate—but you know that. Fleshharrower is only a league away by now. We’re caught between his army and Garroting Deep. I want you to know that this is not an accident. We didn’t panic and run here out of fear. We didn’t come here because Fleshharrower forced us. You aren’t victims. We came here on my order. I made the decision. When I was on Kevin’s Watch, I saw how big Fleshharrower’s army is. It’s so big that we wouldn’t have had a chance in Doom’s Retreat. So I made the decision. I brought us here.



We are going to fight that army here for one reason. Lord Mhoram needs time. He’s going to make this plan of mine work…”
So it was a deliberate plan, of Troy’s. It wasn’t Mhoram taking over for Troy. In fact, Mhoram privately never believed Troy’s plan would work – and he only found out about it relatively late in the day. Yes, Troy needed Mhoram’s powers as a Lord. But Troy was the brains of the operation.

Also see here.
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Post by drew »

...Thinking of the First Chronicles ONLY...
Troy and Covenant were Bi-polar opposites. That was Donaldson's plan.
During the Illearth War, Covenant was the model of Unbelief, while TRoy was the model of beleif. Covenant knew where complete unbeleif lead...rape, letting Elena die..etc, but he also saw were complete beleif lead...killing 15000 of your own army, becoming a tree. If it wasn't for TRoy's sacrifice, I don't think Covenant would have found the paradox he needed, he woulnd not have found the Eye of the Virtigo, which was Beleif/Unbeleif...or a little bit of Covenant with a little bit of Troy.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Going to Garroting Deep was NOT Troy's original plan. That was an act of desperation, after he realized that his plan -- leading Fleshharrower's army into the canyons and ambushing/destroying them would not work.
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Post by Thaale »

Going to Garroting Deep was NOT Troy's original plan.
Of course it wasn't his original plan. That's the whole point! You have maintained that Troy gave up and left it to Mhoram to save the day. That's not what happened. He kept planning. That's what good generals do. They change their plans as circumstances change. That's not a sign of weakness or a point of similarity to Kevin or Elena.

His original plan was to meet Foul's Army in the Center Plains. When he got word too late of Fleshharrower setting out, he had to come up with a new plan.

His next plan was to lure Fleshharrower to Doom's Retreat and fight a defensive battle there. That plan had to be abandoned when he later saw just how large Fleshharrower's army truly was. I don't know why you think this was his original plan; it was merely an interim one.

The next plan was the one that stuck: to slow Fleshharrower up in the retreat (Verement's job); to delay him again in Doriendor Corishev; and then to flee toward Garroting Deep, where the only power that could overcome Fleshharrower's vast army could (hopefully) be persuaded to help Troy and Mhoram out.

And of course this plan worked. And it was a plan, of Troy's, from the time he began setting it in motion as he moved his forces away and left Verement (at V's behest) behind.
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Post by MrKABC »

Thaale wrote: BTW, what’s with the general assumption that Troy failed? Wasn’t Fleshharrower’s army destroyed entirely? Didn’t Troy successfully draw it away from the Center Plains before they and Revelstone could be attacked? It’s hard to say that any other strategy could have produced a better outcome. He lost one Lord (Verement) and maybe half his outnumbered forces, but accomplished the total destruction of a much larger army without giving it any chance to lay waste to the populated parts of The Land.
Troy's plan was a failure in that he had been promising victory over and over again - and then belatedly realizing that the battle of Doom's Retreat would not win that war. Being a military man, he should have planned for all contingencies, including an extraordinarily large enemy army, but did not.

Thaale, I disagree with your point that Hile Troy had not given up. He clearly abrogated all responsibility for his army once he lost his sight at Doriendor Corishev. He did not want to talk to his troops anymore and kept to himself on Mehryl - only speaking to Lord Mhoram at the very end of the march to Garroting Deep.

His plan was a failure, and if Lord Mhoram had not successfully intervened with Caerroil Wildwood, all of the Lords and their armies would have been slaughtered by Garroting Deep.
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Post by jacob Raver, sinTempter »

HT bet the farm on a the reaction of a being whom he wasn't even sure existed...how is that good leadership? Ludicrous.
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Post by Earthpower »

What should have HT done? I say jump off the nearest cliff IMHO. The first thing HT failed to do was find out what Foul was up to. He waited to long to get this information and should have had other plans to fall back on. Once he found out there was no time to reach Doom's Retreat without a death march that is when the backup plan should have kicked in.

I have to ask myself why did he not have Doom's Retreat all ready for his army months in advance? They could have had supplies stored away. There could have been wards setup. They could have setup trenches, barricades, pits, etc... Where were the archers? I could go on and on.

Why did not HT setup his army in the Central Plains to have more time to react to Foul's army? He could have setup a base of operation for easier communication in all directions.

Why no contact with the Haruchai to join in the defense of the land? Why take so long to get the support of the Giants? They might have survived there slaughter if earlier contact was done.

With that said the best offense in this case should have been to stay in Revelstone and defend it. They had plenty of resources to defend Revelstone for many years. He had plenty of time to setup many different kinds of defenses. These could have been as simple as trenches to cut off avenues of attack on the main gate to as complex of setting up some nasty wards. They also could have built a mobile army of archers and bloodguard with a lord or two to do hit and run tactics. The main purpose of this unit would be to keep hitting their supplies and interfering with their supply chain.

This is why TIEW is my least favorite book for I just get frustrated reading it. :P
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I'm way beyond clueless about strategies and warfare. But maybe he could have had armies in a few different locations? No matter which way Foul's army came from, there would have been a force already there. And maybe one army right in the middle, to immediately go to wherever Foul showed up to reinforce, giving the other armies time to get there too?

Like I said, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Maybe there's real obvious flaws with that kind of strategy that I can't see. And, in any event, Foul would have found his way around it.
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Post by jacob Raver, sinTempter »

I think it's just basic contingency planning and utilizing the resources, peoples and tools around you...which HT/SRD chose not to...use.
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Post by Darkdenubis »

Hile's a chump. He based his whole plan on luring Foul's army to Doom's Retreat, but didn't think to stock up on supplies ahead of time? A weeks worth of food, Troy? A WEEK? "If he sends his army in 10-20k at a time, the battle will last for weeks, we'll starve to death in here!" Yeah, no kidding, nimrod.

Which reminds me, they finish off the remainder of the food right before they enter the forest, what the hell did they eat on the journey home? Too bad Troy had to leaf (heh) the army behind, he would have learned every curse word in the Land on that march home :D
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Post by CovenantJr »

I agree in general, but we have to remember that when dealing with someone who knows practically everything anyway, preparing ahead of time just signposts what you're planning.
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Post by Orlion »

CovenantJr wrote:I agree in general, but we have to remember that when dealing with someone who knows practically everything anyway, preparing ahead of time just signposts what you're planning.
I couldn't agree more. They had sent spies to find out what Foul was trying to do...with disasterous results. It could be assumed that Foul had some form of spies in the Land, and seeing an army prepare for the fight at Doom's Retreat would clearly give away the plan. The main mistake that Troy made, is that he believed and wanted to defeat Foul in this war in the here and now. All his 'mistakes' are because of this. When he heard that Fleshharrower had crossed over with his army into the Land, he should have just (as has been pointed out) try for a good defense, since he lacked any intelligence. But he felt the plan could be salvaged and decided to take the gamble that it would be better to defeat Foul as soon as possible. This lead to other 'mistakes' (in quotes because it may only be obviously clear with hindsight), such as not bringing enough food and so forth.

I think it is also important to know that Troy was a think-tank guy, he never was an actual field commander in any actual battle. Expecting him to perfectly command a war against an unknown enemy would be like expecting a kid that has beat StarCraft to lead the Allies to victory against the Nazis and Japanese in WW II.

That said, I think that Troy's actions were ultimately a failure, since he didn't take anything away from Foul that he wasn't willing to give up but sacrificed much needed man power in future battles (though to be fair, he at least kept Mhoram alive).
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Post by Orlion »

Reynard Ashmelayn wrote:I don't understand how that supports that it was OK for Covenant to actively support the land, but not for Troy.

EDIT: I know I'm seeming stubborn, but it seems to me that there HAS to be something Troy could have done...Donaldson's writing is always full of hidden messages for the reader to apply to their own life. "You've got to be Superman to win" doesn't fit the mold.
I think a lot of it has to do with attitude. Troy's was an arrogant "look at me, I'm so good at strategizing! I'm sure I can beat Foul in one fell swoop!" I don't think Covenant had that attitude... he was never sure if he would be successful, but the beauty of the Land was important enough to him that he was willing to try to defend it.

Also, in this context, I think it is more effective to compare Troy to Mhoram, not to Covenant. Consider: only Covenant had the power to defeat Foul with any degree of finality. Troy did not recognize this, rather he did not recognize the limits of his power. Mhoram, on the other hand, knew he may be able to fight against the Despiser's armies, but he knew ultimately that only Covenant could defeat Foul. Heck, even Covenant didn't think his power was unlimited, he recognized some of his limits as well. This was the common mistake of Kevin, Elena, and Troy: None of them recognized the limits of their power and felt that they sufficed to defeat Foul.
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