Is there free will in the land?

[DavidDel]

I was thinking after reading the first 100 or so pages of the TOTree, that there is less likely a chance of FREE WILL in the land. Everything that happens manages to get there regardless of how the characters feel or what they want. The Elohim hint to this as well as the Lord in the first series. The end is known and there doesn't seem to be an escape to it. Now, thinking about this, is LF the only one that doesn't see this? If LF did, I think he might give up...

[peter]

Everything that happens manages to get there regardless of how the characters feel or what they want.

The land is not so different then to the world that we live in, and the chances of there being 'free will' (as opposed to a deterministic world where all of thier actions are pre-determined) are about the same as ours.

[Earthfriend]

It's an interesting question, especially considering the importance placed upon choice in the text. In the final chapter of The Power That Preserves, (Leper's End), even the Land's Creator admits to being un-sure of the outcome of his choice to send Covenant to the Land - indicating the existence of free will.

[wayfriend]

That's a very interesting question, DavidDel.

On the one hand, you have people like Foul and the Elohim who are able to plot and plan with a result that seems inevitable.

On the other hand, you have the need of the Creator to not interfere with his creation, to the point that Covenant must be free to make his own choices and not be the Creator's tool.

However, Earthfriend is right. The text does talk about free will, and the need for it, many times. It's one of the overarching themes. There would almost be no first Chronicles at all if Covenant wasn't as free to choose destroying the Earth as he was free to choose saving it.

I think the inevitability of the mechanizations amongst the powers of the Land doesn't negate free will. All of those mechanizations allow for multiple paths to the same end. So while an end might be inevitable, or almost inevitable, how our friends choose to get there is not.

For example, in TPTP the Lords contemplate how to serve the Land when it's destruction seems inevitable. Mhoram helps them understand that it is better to fight and lose than to desicrate like Kevin or adopt the tactics used by Foul. Either way, the Land would be lost, but how they choose to meet that end makes all the difference.

[Zarathustra]

Excellent points, Wayfriend. Inevitability of an outcome doesn't mean there is no free will. Otherwise our own mortality would make it impossible.

Now that it's been mentioned, which outcomes were inevitable in the Chronicles? I don't remember a single one (except that everyone will eventually die).

Likelihood doesn't mean inevitability.

With the importance SRD places on the necessity of freewill, I'm not even sure how its existence is an issue. He couldn't have this particular story without it.

[wayfriend]

Now that it's been mentioned, which outcomes were inevitable in the Chronicles? I don't remember a single one (except that everyone will eventually die).

Likelihood doesn't mean inevitability.

Perhaps, under those terms, I mean "so close to inevitable it might as well be". (Didn't I say "seems inevitable", "almost inevitable"?)

For example, Foul predicts that Covenant would place the ring into his hand. And that transpires. The Elohim predict that Linden would have the ring and become the Sun-Sage. And that transpires. The Dead predict that Covenant would encounter an Elohim who would enable Vain's destiny. And that transpires.

Then you have the prophets and seers. Seadreamer knows what would happen at the Isle of the One Tree, knows he will die. And that transpires.

If these things, and a number of others, can be predicted and or foreseen, that in turn could lead one to conclude that that world operates by predestination, and that free will is of no consequence.

[Earthfriend]

Now that it's been mentioned, which outcomes were inevitable in the Chronicles? I don't remember a single one (except that everyone will eventually die).

The first one that springs to mind is the consequences of Elena drinking the Earthblood - even Covenant could see that the only outcome of that event would be tragedy and death.

And once Foamfollower had endured Hotash Slay, and returned healed and whole, how could there be any other outcome but success?

Equally, once Mhoram decided to share his secret knowledge of the Ritual of Desecration, how could the newly empowered Lords fail? How could Mhoram himself fail, having found such strength?

[Vraith]

heh...an issue, as someone said, in the real world too. It is important to notice that NO ONE's vision is perfect. Would LF have WANTED the ring in his hand, if he knew the results of that? But that's the stuff that fantasy worlds are made of. It works for books...but the books [at least tangentially, or by implication] are struggling with the issue in the real world.
In the real world, though...despite attempts by a number of people to argue otherwise, there are really only 2 options: if ANYONE knows [even if it's only God, and s/he stays silent] absolutely what will happen in the future..no matter how small the incident...then there is no free will. Period. If NO ONE knows [not even God, and s/he shouts to us all] absolutely what will happen in the future..no matter how obvious the incident..then there is.
You decide.

[wayfriend]

I don't know, Vraith. Free Will and predestination are certainly mutually exclusive. Having them both at the same time would be ... a paradox.

[Relayer]

And once Foamfollower had endured Hotash Slay, and returned healed and whole, how could there be any other outcome but success?

Equally, once Mhoram decided to share his secret knowledge of the Ritual of Desecration, how could the newly empowered Lords fail? How could Mhoram himself fail, having found such strength?

I wouldn't agree that either of these were therefore predestined within the context of the story. Rather, your viewpoint sounds more like how we "expect" stories to unfold. As a reader, of course we know they're each going to win. (then again, with Donaldson, you never really know )

In the first, TC could easily have tried to fight Foul, and lost. Or Foul could've laughed back and turned TC into an amoeba. Or any number of other things.

In the second, Mhoram still probably would have lost had TC not returned to the Land at that exact moment (when the krill reactivated).

[Zarathustra]

Well, these are tricky issues.

Perhaps, under those terms, I mean "so close to inevitable it might as well be". (Didn't I say "seems inevitable", "almost inevitable"?)

Your language was fine. It was mine that was inexact. I should have said, "which outcomes seemed inevitable or were almost inevitable in the Chronicles?"

Your examples are good. However, I'm not sure that predestination precludes freewill. As you said, it would be a paradox, but I have no problem with such a paradox, because I think it depends upon the "inside/outside" distinction. In other words, it's a product of perspective. From the inside, it would feel like one had freewill even if from the outside view (perhaps the Creator's) it's predestined.

But then again, I don't believe in predestination, not even in this story. Knowing how the future will unfold doesn't mean that it is predestined to unfold that way. It could just mean that a person will know how things will turn out IF events A and B and C happen. If A, B, and C don't happen, well then all bets are off. And knowing how someone will freely choose doesn't mean they didn't freely choose. It just means you know that person really well.

Or it means we're talking about magical foresight, in which case there is no problem of impossible paradox, because once you introduce magic into the equation, it no longer has to be logical or rational. Magic transcends these limits.

A speaking of predictions, Lord Foul's predictions are themselves attempts at manipulation. He is good at creating self-fulfilling prophesies, where the prophesy itself exerts an influence upon the victim. And, don't forget, Foul has contingency plans. Being able to predict outcomes becomes easier when you plan well. Contingency plans wouldn't be necessary if something were predestined to happen. Ditto for the Elohim. Findail's mission was a contingency plan just in case Linden didn't take the ring from Covenant. If she were predestined to take it, why plan for another outcome? And the issue of the Elohim's foresight was questionable anyway, since they were surprised that Linden didn't already have the ring.

In discussing the various motives of the ur-viles, Covenant's dead, Lord Foul, the Elohim, etc. Donaldson was very clear in the Gradual Interview that none of their plans were inevitable. Any of them could have failed. Otherwise the victories achieved would have been empty and meaningless.

[Loresraat]

Well said, Malik. To my understanding, there must be Free Will in the lands, and in fact it was very important that it exist. The Creator had to be extremely careful not to manipulate Covenant lest Coventant become his tool and break the Arch of Time. And Mhoram lets Covenant go because he sees that Despite has to be fought willingly or not at all.

The existence of visions does cast something of a shadow over the existence of Free Will, but there is "a difference between an Oracle and a Prophet" (whcih I've been trying to understand, but am not sure I do yet). Also, I agree with those who raise the point that "prevision" may be more a matter of understanding intuitively what is most likely to happen, and if the intuition is good enough it can seem infallible.

I really do love it though when the Big Bad Guy's prophecy don't turn out anything like what they thought it meant. One of my faves has to be Lord Of The Rings where it is told that the Wringwraith will never be killed by mortal man.....

[wayfriend]

But then again, I don't believe in predestination, not even in this story.

I merely said that such examples could lead one to believe that there is. The original poster seemed to indicate that he felt that "everything that happens manages to get there regardless of how the characters feel or what they want."

Foul may just be a really good guesser who can execute devious plans which ensure his guesses are correct. Maybe the Elohim work the same way.

Earthsight, and Mhorams oracular and seeric visions, are harder to explain, but could be chalked up to predictions manufactured by an unconscious stewing over clues.

However, Donaldson is quite capable of tackling the paradox of predestination and free will. And I think, to some degree, he does. I don't think that everything can quite be explained by luck and predictive talents. I don't think Seadreamer has Foul's capacity for predicting and plotting, so how could he have known of his appearance at the One Tree?

I think his answer, as I said above, is that some aspects of the future may be inevitable, but how we meet the future is not. And, of course, that omens need not mean what we think they mean.

{edit} Don't forget the wyrd of the Waynhim: "In the Waynhim tongue, Weird has several meanings. It is fate or destiny - but it is also choice, and is used to signify council or decision-making. It is a contradiction - fate and choice. A man may be fated to die, but no fate can determine whether he will die in courage or cowardice. The Waynhim choose the manner in which they meet their doom."

[Earthfriend]

I wouldn't agree that either of these were therefore predestined within the context of the story. Rather, your viewpoint sounds more like how we "expect" stories to unfold. As a reader, of course we know they're each going to win. (then again, with Donaldson, you never really know )

I agree with you that my viewpoint is based on what I expected as a reader.

But I would argue that is the text itself that encourages the reader to make such assumptions - and that Donaldson at almost every turn fulfills the reader's expectations. The author often strongly indicates or hints towards the outcome of a coming event, before the event transpires. (Elena drinking the Earthblood is an obvious example, but there are others. The encounter with the Elohim is littered with portents of ill omen, as was the Quest's misadventure at the Isle of the One Tree.) As a reader, I may not have known beforehand the exact order of events, but I certainly 'knew' whether or not, for example, Hergrom and Ceer would be successful against the Sandgorgon.

I guess what I'm arguing is that, from one perspective, there cannot be free will in the Land due to the fact that it is a construct; a piece of fiction created by another who has mapped out and plotted each and every character's actions. And that reality is necessarily reflected within the text, so try though the author might, hints of what is to come are evident.

But having said that, I still believe that Donaldson intended free will and choice - and the consequences that invariably accompany a choice - to be major themes within the Chronicles, and that as far as the characters are concerned, they do indeed have free will.

[Blackhawk]

Predestination can be changed which makes it Predestination (with a Clause) if you reach the same point at a paths end no matter what choices you make you still have free will to shape the route of that path on the way there, its like a rubiks cube... you can beat predestination but you need the right Combination.

Foul had free will to complete a simple sentence which could have achieved his goal.. but Rage prevented him from reaching his goal after planning for 6000 years. Predestination is far too fragile if a simple .... "Avant Shade" could prevent or seal its outcome.

the relationship between freewill and predestination is the same as the relationship between TC and the Creator, as the Creator could not control TC just as predestination cannot control Free will. Free Will seems to be the only means of elimination for Predestination.

To make it simple i dont think predestination can exist... Free will shapes and changes that path. Free will and predestination are a paradox..they cannot exist together.. because one cancels the other out.