Vain - why did he bar his teeth and look at Covenant?

[DavidDel]

In TWL, while TC is in Andelain after being ambushed (and the spider bites him), he is suddenly under a feverish spell and tied to the stakes.

In regards to Vain : "Slowly his eyes shifted across the frenzy until they met Convenant's"
He then asked Vain to help him and Vain grinned.

Now, after TC used the power of command on him, did he in fact, invoke a never ending command by saying "save me"? By saying this, it seems quite open-ended and possibly eternal. He would have to save him no matter what happened, because "save me" is so general. After this, I starting thinking that maybe Vain actually did save him, causing the white gold to ignite in Andelain.

It is interesting to note that Foamfollower said the power of command over Vain had one use, but it seems like TC used it twice escaping from Woodhelvin - the first time against the graveller and the second time when Vain killed the 5 pursuers.

More than this, I wonder SDR must have wanted the reader to distrust Vain and his purpose until the final reveal.

Just thinking aloud...

[peter]

I would need to re-read the section to be sure but I believe the saving of Covenant here would only constitute one use of the power as all of the incidents would come under one instance of sustained threat that one use of the command would cover.....er.....if that makes sense!

[peter]

Sorry - forgot to answer the main question! Vain bared his teth in his version of 'grinning like a wolf' at the fact that 1) covenant had been forced to ask him for help - even in the face of constantly declaring his mistrust of him and 2) with the pleasure that any cruel individual gets at finally being able to show off their power - being let of the leash as it were and knowing that someone else is going to pay big time for it.

[Earthfriend]

Perhaps he also did it with pleasure at knowing that the one constraint upon him had just been lifted. Now, no one could command him. Now, he was free to persue his purpose as he saw fit, answerable to none.

[tinhamodic]

It could also be that Vain knows Covenant is powerful with the white gold and will be made more powerful via what is yet to happen, yet in a way helpless so is amused by that fact

[High Lord Tolkien]

Or Vain is just a total dick.




Good question!
But don't compare the Power of Command (with the capitals) with Vain's use once command.
I think that Foamfollower's comment regarding the once use command on Vain is enough for me.
The smile about now being free is good too.
But seriously, I think he was just being a dick.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Perhaps he also did it with pleasure at knowing that the one constraint upon him had just been lifted. Now, no one could command him. Now, he was free to persue his purpose as he saw fit, answerable to none.

That never occurred to me, and I like it.
But, yeah, he's a bit of a d---, too.
People who are all structure are like that

[krejaton]

Having recently re-read TWL, here is what I took away from that episode along with the entire character who is Vain. I think that moment, along with so many throughout the 2nd trilogy, just feeds the enigma of Vain. Beyond the one-time command word, he is neither helpful not a detriment, he is nearly always oblivious yet on rare occasion he offers some action or reaction.

I saw it more as a literary device to demonstrate that Vain isn't just a void, a piece of flotsam or other inanimate object but he isn't desiring to interact much with his surroundings. That is what made him a valuable character to the series--he wasn't just a piece of furniture with legs but some mysterious foil, not quite benevolent, not quite malevolent, more oblivious except at certain times known only to Vain.

[SleeplessOne]

Having recently re-read TWL, here is what I took away from that episode along with the entire character who is Vain. I think that moment, along with so many throughout the 2nd trilogy, just feeds the enigma of Vain. Beyond the one-time command word, he is neither helpful not a detriment, he is nearly always oblivious yet on rare occasion he offers some action or reaction.

I saw it more as a literary device to demonstrate that Vain isn't just a void, a piece of flotsam or other inanimate object but he isn't desiring to interact much with his surroundings. That is what made him a valuable character to the series--he wasn't just a piece of furniture with legs but some mysterious foil, not quite benevolent, not quite malevolent, more oblivious except at certain times known only to Vain.

Vain was a great and unique character who in many ways embodies SRD's 'mystery-writer' tendencies imo
A lot of his actions made more sense after his purpose was finally revealed, e.g. bowing to Linden, destroying the warped ur-viles and acquiring the heels of the Staff of Law.

[Rocksister]

How cool if there was a book devoted to just different parts of the Chronicles. A book just about the Demondim and the creation of Vain; Vain's thoughts and desires. Another book on the Giants, from their Home to their travels to the Land, and branching off into the attempts by sea to find Home. Another book on the Haruchai; their ancestral home in the mountains, their coming to the Land to pick a fight and making the Vow instead, their extravagance and fealty and tireless service. Another book on the Stonedownors, another on the Woodhelvennin, another one on Andelain. Another book on the forests, the ravaging of men, and the creation of the Forestals, and the Colossus. SRD does not have to continue the Chronicles. He could write all these "companion" books. I doubt he'd entertain the thought, but it sure would make me happy......

[wayfriend]

More than this, I wonder SDR must have wanted the reader to distrust Vain and his purpose until the final reveal.

I think that this is the essential point. Vain's rare and inexpicable examples of motivations are meant to make us confused and a bit scared, not to enlighten.

There's a possibility that Vain's grin at this point in the story is related to Covenant's one command being used up.

The other thing that occurs to me is that it might be Vain recognizing that Covenant is about to unleash his power. Not because he is cruel - I don't believe that Vain has enough personality to be cruel. But because his design is such that the excercise of wild magic is one of the things that completes his existance. Therefore, he may have some sort of response to seeing the wild magic in action. Or of seeing it's potency increased by the Raver, as tinhamodic mentions.

I think, if we look back, we can measure all of Vain's independent actions as being related somehow to recognizing or serving his ultimate purpose.

He may seem like a dick. But I don't think he really is. I think he was just wrote in a way to make that seem like a possibility.

Now, after TC used the power of command on him, did he in fact, invoke a never ending command by saying "save me"?

I don't think so. I think the command ended as soon as Covenant was safe (saved).

So even though Vain helped him escape the villiage, it was still in force while they evaded pursuit. Not until, perhaps, reaching Andelain was the command ended.

[Krazy Kat]

[Wayfriend wrote: There's a possibility that Vain's grin at this point in the story is related to Covenant's one command being used up.]

That makes sense.

Vain grinned because he had more important things to do, like finding the heels to the Staff of Law. Which meant that Covenant would have to use wild magic if he wanted to command Vain again...and again...

In Andelain, Vain stepped out from the inside of a tree. Now that's saying something

[Cagliostro]

Maybe Vain had just been to the dentist and wanted to show off.

[Blackhawk]

Vains command had been used... he no longer could react according to his making. the act of grinning at TC was what made the wild magic erupt so i was thinking it was the only way Vain could help TC, so when TC said... Vain Help me, It seems as if Vain Smiled Blackly and said internally.."OK ...but your not going to like it" and somehow triggered TCs wild magic, it also made me wonder why vain could react to save linden. was there a set of rules in Vain that allowed him to make sure himself and specifically the one capable of healing the land were not killed?

TWL: "Vain!" Covenant gasped as if he were choking on blood. "Help me!" In response, Vain bared his teeth in a black grin.
At the sight, Covenant snapped. A white shriek of fury exploded from his chest. And with his shriek came a deflagration that destroyed the night.

[wayfriend]

It's probably worth diving into the GI for a quote.

Vain certainly has the power to defend himself. But he is, in a manner of speaking, a robot with very limited programming. He protects himself, and attacks Sunbane-warpped ur-viles: that's it. (With the one obvious exception that Covenant is allowed to command him once.) Other than that, he only does what he has to do to serve the purpose for which he was made. So, for example, he enters Revelstone the first time because he needs the iron heels of the old Staff, but stays outside the second time because (in terms of his programming) fighting the Clave is irrelevant to his purpose. Covenant and Linden are irrelevant to his purpose. Only Findail and the ring matter. (Remember that Vain's makers don't want to expose him to dangers--e.g. the full force of the Banefire--which may be powerful enough to damage him.)

Emphasis mine. Vain takes actions to serve his purpose. And, I daresay, to preserve the possibility of his purpose.

He escapes Elemesnedene in order to preserve his purpose. He defends himself against Findail's attacks, and against the Clave, to preserve his purpose. Those things seem fairly obvious.

But he bowed to Linden. He bowed because (I feel) he recognized that she was critical to his purpose. He must have known; the ur-viles must have known.

So he saves Linden from the plain of graveling to preserve his purpose. He helps rescue Linden from the stormy seas in order to preserve his purpose.

Which is why I think, when he grinned at TC, it was because he recognized that the wild magic was critical to his purpose. Not Covenant. But the wild magic.

This idea helps one other thing make sense. If Vain saved Linden, as he did several times, why did he need to be commanded to save Covenant? Because he did not recognize Covenant as critical to his purpose. And the ur-viles made him that way. So they added the 'Nekrimah' clause for Covenant, just in case.

[Vader]

Vain - why did he bar his teeth and look at Covenant?

Because he can.

P.S: If he had been a dog the books would have been NC-17.

[Barnetto]

SRD's reply to my query on the GI - looks like he's been taking a peek at Wayfriend's responses...

Dear Mr Donaldson,

In the past, I have laboured under the (perhaps na�ve) notion that authors are the ultimate arbiters and interpreters of their own works. Within the GI, you clearly explain that, from your point of view, once your works are in the public domain, you accept that any consistent interpretation of your work is as valid as any other (including your own).

Building on that, I wonder whether you deliberately include ambiguities within your work? Obviously you will include plot elements/detail that are ambiguous at the point they arise, but later resolve as the plot develops. But do you deliberately include elements where you yourself do not have a clear view as to which of several possible interpretations is the "correct" one? (It goes without saying that as a simple reader I labour under the weight of many unresolved ambiguities when I read your books and am happy to lay the bulk of that failure on my own limitations!)

To provide just one example to focus my question. When Covenant is about to be burned at the stake in During Stonedown, mutely watched by Vain, he turns to him to ask for help. Vain grins and Covenant erupts into argent fire. It seems to me that there are many different interpretations of what is happening here, all consistent in some way with the Chronicles. Vain's grin may actually be a deliberate way of helping Covenant access his power by heightening his ire. It may simply be a smile recognising the imminent eruption of power. Other possibilities exist. My question is whether, in writing an ambiguity such as this, you always have a clear view of which interpretation is "correct" from your perspective? Do you "know" why Vain smiles at this point?

And a related question. One thing that you have said in the GI has confused me. In relation to Vain, you state that "Covenant and Linden are irrelevant to his purpose". However, on a number of occasions Vain goes out of his way to save Linden - is this not because he recognises that Linden (though not Covenant) is indeed essential to his achieving his ultimate purpose?..........

I've been procrastinating with your question because I find it difficult to address. But first, a practical point. I wrote of Vain that "Covenant and Linden are irrelevant to his purpose." For the purposes of salving my bruised--vanity? conscience?--I'm going to pretend that you took my statement out of context. <rueful smile> Otherwise my assertion is patently absurd. Vain goes to considerable lengths to preserve Linden--for the obvious reason that he needs her. (How could I have failed to remember that? I have no idea.) So, duh, I was wrong on that point.

But I didn't intend Vain's reactions to Covenant/wild magic to be ambiguous. To my way of thinking, Vain simply *likes* seeing wild magic deployed because it--like Linden--is essential to his purpose. As an entity, he isn't complex enough to be manipulative. (After all, the ur-viles aren't the Demondim--and they certainly aren't the Viles. I doubt that they know how to create a fully functioning sentience.)

[jackgiantkiller]

He grinned cos he had just dropped a really really foul smelling bottom burp