The Seven Hells
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The Seven Hells
In the Second Chronicles, the Seven Hells are defined as: Desert, Rain, Pestilence, Feritility, War, Savagery, and Darkness... but why were only the first four actual 'Suns' of the Sunbane?
Covenant turned in time to see a short figure detach itself from the burning mud, step queasily onto the hard ground.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
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Vraith
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I never actually thought about his at all. Interesting catch.
My first reaction is that the first four are all [to an extent] 'elemental,' where as war and savagery are are dependent on consciousness, and darkness is as well, by one definition..by the literal definition a "Sun" of "Darkness" isn't possible.
My second reaction is that, once the Sunbane reached it's full potency, the last three may have become more literal.
My third reaction is that: the 4 elemental portions had already begun forcing thinking beings into the latter three states.
My first reaction is that the first four are all [to an extent] 'elemental,' where as war and savagery are are dependent on consciousness, and darkness is as well, by one definition..by the literal definition a "Sun" of "Darkness" isn't possible.
My second reaction is that, once the Sunbane reached it's full potency, the last three may have become more literal.
My third reaction is that: the 4 elemental portions had already begun forcing thinking beings into the latter three states.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
A Sun of Darkness could be an eclipse, a true warping of Eatchpower to keep an eclipse going for that long.
Covenant turned in time to see a short figure detach itself from the burning mud, step queasily onto the hard ground.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
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peter
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Am I right in thinking that this refers to 'A Jeroth of the Seven Hells - the mythology of the Land at the time of the Clave etc. I don't remember the passage where the seven hells are named (though I don't doubt its existence) but even given that they are, is there any reference to thier being related to the different forms that the sunbane takes. (Why I wonder is fertility taken as a form of hell - surely infertility would be much worse). Assuming however that the relationship holds, perhaps the 'missing three' are implicit in the manifest forms and thier effect on the inhabitants of the Land.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
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wayfriend
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Donaldson does like to choose numbers which have mystical/spiritual/religious significance. For example, forty years between Covenant's first and second appearance. Three ravers.
Seven Hells strikes me as analagous to the Seven Deadly Sins. Not that they correlate. But that the same number was used, to convey the same mystical/spiritual/religious effect. (And in the Divine Comedy, wasn't there a level in Hell for each of those Deadly Sins?)
"Four Hells" doesn't sound half as ominous.
Seven Hells strikes me as analagous to the Seven Deadly Sins. Not that they correlate. But that the same number was used, to convey the same mystical/spiritual/religious effect. (And in the Divine Comedy, wasn't there a level in Hell for each of those Deadly Sins?)
"Four Hells" doesn't sound half as ominous.
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True, but 4 phases of the Sunbane isn't really ominous either. I've never heard of the number 4 having any type of special significance. 3, 6, and 7, sure... just not 4.wayfriend wrote:Donaldson does like to choose numbers which have mystical/spiritual/religious significance. For example, forty years between Covenant's first and second appearance. Three ravers.
Seven Hells strikes me as analagous to the Seven Deadly Sins. Not that they correlate. But that the same number was used, to convey the same mystical/spiritual/religious effect. (And in the Divine Comedy, wasn't there a level in Hell for each of those Deadly Sins?)
"Four Hells" doesn't sound half as ominous.
I thought the Sunbane was a manifestation of the Seven Hells, as part of the punishment. If they aren't related, why name 4 out of 7 as the same thing?
Covenant turned in time to see a short figure detach itself from the burning mud, step queasily onto the hard ground.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
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DukkhaWaynhim
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Seven is a more literary number than 4. A-Jeroth of the Four Hells? Nope. Wouldn't cut it.
The four phases of the Sunbane are perversions of nature afflicted upon the Land. This leads to daily war and savagery, with the ever-increasing result being personal darkness (despair), which leads to Foul's ultimate goal of The Last Dark, the destruction of the Land and thus his being set free.
Regarding Sunbane fertility - take something good, break it horrifically, and give it back. That's the essence of Lord Foul, because it engenders despair. Uncontrolled growth/fertility is known to us on Earth as cancer.
dw
The four phases of the Sunbane are perversions of nature afflicted upon the Land. This leads to daily war and savagery, with the ever-increasing result being personal darkness (despair), which leads to Foul's ultimate goal of The Last Dark, the destruction of the Land and thus his being set free.
Regarding Sunbane fertility - take something good, break it horrifically, and give it back. That's the essence of Lord Foul, because it engenders despair. Uncontrolled growth/fertility is known to us on Earth as cancer.
dw
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
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peter
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I get this DukkaWaynhim, but what I was refering to was 'fertility' in the original list as one of the Seven Hells. To me it just doesn't seem to square with the others on the list.DukkhaWaynhim wrote: Regarding Sunbane fertility - take something good, break it horrifically, and give it back. That's the essence of Lord Foul, because it engenders despair. Uncontrolled growth/fertility is known to us on Earth as cancer.
dw
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
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Earthfriend
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Re: The Seven Hells
Good catch. In my opinion, The Seven Hells are part of the false mythos Foul has created for the people of the Land; are way he has devised so that he can rape them and the Land and have them thank him for it. The seasons he perverts with the four phases of the Sunbane; the people live in a constant state of war and savagery, and the naMhoram's Grim is a darkness all fear.soft one wrote:In the Second Chronicles, the Seven Hells are defined as: Desert, Rain, Pestilence, Feritility, War, Savagery, and Darkness... but why were only the first four actual 'Suns' of the Sunbane?
But it is also possible that such inconsistencies expose the Sunbane for the falsehood it is.
Stone and Sea are deep in life,
two unalterable symbols of the world;
permanence at rest, and permanence in motion;
participants in the Power that remains.
two unalterable symbols of the world;
permanence at rest, and permanence in motion;
participants in the Power that remains.
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DukkhaWaynhim
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Remember back to Linden's reaction to the fertile sun... wasn't it the worst of the phases for her, the most personally evil, since it caused trees to scream under the warping pressure of wrongness that was forcing them to grow far outside their normal cycle, like malignant tumors? How was that not a hell?peter wrote:I get this DukkaWaynhim, but what I was refering to was 'fertility' in the original list as one of the Seven Hells. To me it just doesn't seem to square with the others on the list.
I see how in a list of 'hell' items like pestilence, war and savagery, that fertility initially seems out of place -- but taking something that is normally so good and warping it so badly... it really deserves the top spot.
dw
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
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wayfriend
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I think the Sunbane had four phases to replace the four seasons. (And that Donaldson could not imagine what a fifth one would be. Sun of Ice?)
Fertilty is listed as a hell because it is one of the phases of the Sunbane, and it spefically means the Sun of Fertility (rather than fertility in general) which is as bad a Sun as any other. Sure, it brings food, but many travails as well, and also (IIRC) that's when the various villiages go to war to capture blood to shed.
Why are there more hells than phases of the Sunbane? The simplest answer is that the phases are each a hell, but that there are other things which are as well. If there were Four Hells, which were only the four phases, that would not be worth the effort of noting them.
Fertilty is listed as a hell because it is one of the phases of the Sunbane, and it spefically means the Sun of Fertility (rather than fertility in general) which is as bad a Sun as any other. Sure, it brings food, but many travails as well, and also (IIRC) that's when the various villiages go to war to capture blood to shed.
Why are there more hells than phases of the Sunbane? The simplest answer is that the phases are each a hell, but that there are other things which are as well. If there were Four Hells, which were only the four phases, that would not be worth the effort of noting them.
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All I know for sure is, when I read them the first time, I kept waiting for just ONE day of Savagery Sun, just to see what would happen to everyone. It could have happened while they were on the Quest for the One Tree, and then the horrors could have been told by Sunder and Hollian.
I assumed those other three were just extremely rare days... so rare, that no one knew about them. Of course, a Sun of War would cause undue spilling of blood, which would lessen the people available for the Banefire.
I assumed those other three were just extremely rare days... so rare, that no one knew about them. Of course, a Sun of War would cause undue spilling of blood, which would lessen the people available for the Banefire.
Covenant turned in time to see a short figure detach itself from the burning mud, step queasily onto the hard ground.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
The figure was scarcely taller than the skest, and shaped like them, a misborn child without eyes or any other features. But it was made of mud. Flames flickered over it as it climbed from the fire, then died away, leaving a dull brown creature like a sculpture poorly wrought in clay. Reddish pockets embedded in its form glowed dully.
Couldn't 'darkness' refer to the darkness in which the people of the Land were kept about the true nature of the Land?
Linden should have quailed. His certainty was as bitter as the touch of a Raver: it should have defeated her. But it did not. How often had she heard Lord Foul or his servants prophesy destruction, attempting to impose despair? And how often had Thomas Covenant shown her that it was possible to stand upright under the weight of utter hopelessness?
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IrrationalSanity
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Some thoughts:
4 - Four seasons, Four Elementals (earth air fire water)
7 hells and the Sunbane:
Desert, Rain, Pestilence, Feritility: Easy
Savagery: The warped who weren't on stone at first touch
Darkness: And you don't think the Grim counts here?
War: The Sunbane is the essence of the War against Law
4 - Four seasons, Four Elementals (earth air fire water)
7 hells and the Sunbane:
Desert, Rain, Pestilence, Feritility: Easy
Savagery: The warped who weren't on stone at first touch
Darkness: And you don't think the Grim counts here?
War: The Sunbane is the essence of the War against Law
- Woody -
Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
"Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand." - Amok
Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
"Desecration requires no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand." - Amok
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Vraith
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Few unrelated to each other comments:
Anciently, I think especially in the strange combined mystic/mathematic system that Pythagorus and others followed, 4 was a very "potent" number.
Basically, as I meant to imply in my first post, the first 4 are torture/punishement/defilement of the cycle and "bodies" of the world, the second three are of the "souls" of the world. [naturally they relate to each other].
Fertility is so aweful because it is unrestrained...like cancer [according to some people/theories] is life out of control, life killing with too much life.
Anciently, I think especially in the strange combined mystic/mathematic system that Pythagorus and others followed, 4 was a very "potent" number.
Basically, as I meant to imply in my first post, the first 4 are torture/punishement/defilement of the cycle and "bodies" of the world, the second three are of the "souls" of the world. [naturally they relate to each other].
Fertility is so aweful because it is unrestrained...like cancer [according to some people/theories] is life out of control, life killing with too much life.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
-
peter
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I think it is important to remember Fouls main aim here - not just to spread misery and despair thoughout the Land but to engineer the situation where the Arch would be destroyed and he would be free to wreek havoc on the universe at large. To detroy the Land would have been fun to him but ultimatly a waste of time in terms of his bigger purpouse.soft one wrote:All I know for sure is, when I read them the first time, I kept waiting for just ONE day of Savagery Sun, just to see what would happen to everyone. It could have happened while they were on the Quest for the One Tree, and then the horrors could have been told by Sunder and Hollian.
I assumed those other three were just extremely rare days... so rare, that no one knew about them. Of course, a Sun of War would cause undue spilling of blood, which would lessen the people available for the Banefire.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard