Not only the moniker idea. But, like, the fact that two deities could have the same domain. So it's no longer a case of Bel being a single interpretation of the domain of "Peace", while others who might think that "Peace" could be played a different way are just out. (I chose Bel because he is such an easy example of someone playing a domain in a way other than the typical interpretation.) Now, we'd have Joe, the God of Peace through meditation; and Billy-Bob, the God of Peace through destroying all your enemies; and Jurgen, the God of Peace through lobotomizing the world until they're too stupid to fight. All of them are deities of "peace", and all interpreting that domain differently. And, while they're all focusing on that domain, they are more than just that domain... they have character in themselves, and just choose to express that character through the filter of their domain.
Or... a God of Death that focuses on the transition from life to death (maybe also having the domain of life, focusing on the moment of creation of life, but not caring about the quality of existence between those moments)... and one who focused on funeral rights, and one who focused on the afterlife and proper atonement for sins. One who could perhaps seek death on a mass scale, because of the power gained by fear of death.
In our current form, we get one deity of Death, and one of Peace. And each of those gets to impose her and his interpretation of those domains on the world. I just like the idea of a system where there could be several competing interpretations of a single domain, and the various deities could actually debate / fight over which one is the most correct.
Pantheon - Discussions on the Future
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Goatkiller666
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Allright, in the meantime I'll reveal another change in the game. Namely, what happens with Houses and Courts?
In P3, each god belonged to one of five Houses which depended on the god's primary domain; each god in a House would benefit if the other deities from that House grew stronger, and vice versa would suffer if they were weakened. Other than that, there were no other perks linked to Houses.
In P4, I already explained how there will be four Houses, deities shall be distributed evenly across all Houses in a random fashion, and the primary purpose of Houses will be to make turns more manageable by fractioning the total amount of turn orders and results into four different deadlines, each of which applies only to the gods of a specific House. So, each game turn would have, say, the three Winter deities acting first, sending orders and receiving results; then the three Spring deities, and so on.
Regarding Courts, here's where a major change comes in. The Court system of P3 will be replaced by a Pantheon system: there will be no "mandated Courts", but rather, groups of players will be able to form their own pantheons, effectively helping each other to grow more steadily. I toyed with the idea of setting up some checks and balances to ensure that we don't end up with the same players forming the same alliances, but I decided that it's not worth setting up specific rules against that situation: I hope players will be mature enough to avoid falling into that pit trap, and in any case I can always act directly if I feel this is happening. Anyway, each pantheon will be an official entity - with some perks, such as the fact that you'll only be able to loan power to deities in your own pantheon. You won't need to be in a pantheon to play (a monotheistic deity, for example, wouldn't be likely to be in a pantheon!), and there would be some additional restrictions (for example, you would need a minimum number of deities to form a pantheon). This way, you could basically create your own Courts, not necessarily in opposition to others.
Oh, on the other hand, given the tendency of P4 to slow down the growth of a deity's raw divine power, I scrapped the concept of Divine Right...
In P3, each god belonged to one of five Houses which depended on the god's primary domain; each god in a House would benefit if the other deities from that House grew stronger, and vice versa would suffer if they were weakened. Other than that, there were no other perks linked to Houses.
In P4, I already explained how there will be four Houses, deities shall be distributed evenly across all Houses in a random fashion, and the primary purpose of Houses will be to make turns more manageable by fractioning the total amount of turn orders and results into four different deadlines, each of which applies only to the gods of a specific House. So, each game turn would have, say, the three Winter deities acting first, sending orders and receiving results; then the three Spring deities, and so on.
Regarding Courts, here's where a major change comes in. The Court system of P3 will be replaced by a Pantheon system: there will be no "mandated Courts", but rather, groups of players will be able to form their own pantheons, effectively helping each other to grow more steadily. I toyed with the idea of setting up some checks and balances to ensure that we don't end up with the same players forming the same alliances, but I decided that it's not worth setting up specific rules against that situation: I hope players will be mature enough to avoid falling into that pit trap, and in any case I can always act directly if I feel this is happening. Anyway, each pantheon will be an official entity - with some perks, such as the fact that you'll only be able to loan power to deities in your own pantheon. You won't need to be in a pantheon to play (a monotheistic deity, for example, wouldn't be likely to be in a pantheon!), and there would be some additional restrictions (for example, you would need a minimum number of deities to form a pantheon). This way, you could basically create your own Courts, not necessarily in opposition to others.
Oh, on the other hand, given the tendency of P4 to slow down the growth of a deity's raw divine power, I scrapped the concept of Divine Right...
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Fist and Faith
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Being able to receive aid from other deities would be the primary advantage by the looks.
It seems that what Xar is implementing is that the courts would exist at the exclusion of the others, all most as if they deny the existence of the other, and thus cannot act in a way that aids them. So no more sending DRP to a non allied god
It seems that what Xar is implementing is that the courts would exist at the exclusion of the others, all most as if they deny the existence of the other, and thus cannot act in a way that aids them. So no more sending DRP to a non allied god
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Fist and Faith
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Thing is, yeah, the advantage is that you would be able to give and receive aid from others. But the disadvantage of not being able to give and receive aid from those not in your pantheon doesn't seem all that bad a thing. Especially if those who are not in a pantheon can't give or receive aid from anybody. So is there a more serious disadvantage to being in a pantheon? And is there an advantage to not?
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Pam, I'm unsure yet as to how to proceed with the smaller forums. I'd rather keep everything on the site, so people don't have to go sift through various hosts, but it really depends on how volatile these Pantheons will be - I wouldn't want to ask the admins to make and delete pantheon subforums every week 
Well of course, with Av as admin, maybe that would be more doable, but still
Murrin, I still need to think about available domains. But in general, I think I'll ease the restrictions a bit, especially in light of the fact that more than one person can pick up the same domain. However, I think that I will unofficially try to encourage people to take different domains than they already played in Pantheon.
Fist, there will be several advantages at being in a Court/Pantheon. The three most important are:
1. There will be a sort of synergy between your growth and that of other deities in your pantheon: when they grow in strength, so will you (although of course to a lesser degree) and the opposite will also be true. So, gathering together a group of deities who work well together can be useful for all of them to grow in power faster.
2. You will only be able to give or receive raw divine power from others in your pantheon;
3. Most importantly: because of the ties between the deities of your pantheon, you will be able to use your divine power in ways that you couldn't do alone (see below).
The disadvantages of being in a Pantheon directly relate to those two advantages:
1. If you are at odds with your allies, and/or they suffered tremendous setbacks, you will also be weakened somewhat;
2. You will not be able to receive or give raw divine power to anyone outside that pantheon, no matter how much you want it.
As for the advantages and disadvantages of NOT being in a pantheon:
1. Your power growth will not be influenced (either positively or negatively) by the growth or weakening of anyone else;
2. You will be able to exchange divine power only with others who are not in a pantheon.
So basically, being in a pantheon gives you a good chance to grow faster (and the more people are in there, the more likely this is to be the case, as it's unlikely so many people would suffer setbacks at the same time); it also gives you a chance to set up a "divine power trade", and to be more flexible with how you use your power. NOT being in a pantheon ensures that no matter how bad it gets for others, you will never be weakened in such an indirect way, and it also means that you are more flexible as to sharing divine power, but you can still use it only within your domain (see below).
As for divine power itself: it will grow slowly, but it will be the only way you have to affect areas where you don't have mortal influence, or to perform miracles. However, normally you will only be able to use it within the boundaries of your domain (creative ideas are welcome, but be careful not to stretch them too far). So if you are a deity of death, you won't be able to use your power to, say, create a bridge. But if you are in a pantheon with the god of construction work, then yes, you will be able to do so (and he in turn will be able to use his power in ways related to your domain).
Well of course, with Av as admin, maybe that would be more doable, but still
Murrin, I still need to think about available domains. But in general, I think I'll ease the restrictions a bit, especially in light of the fact that more than one person can pick up the same domain. However, I think that I will unofficially try to encourage people to take different domains than they already played in Pantheon.
Fist, there will be several advantages at being in a Court/Pantheon. The three most important are:
1. There will be a sort of synergy between your growth and that of other deities in your pantheon: when they grow in strength, so will you (although of course to a lesser degree) and the opposite will also be true. So, gathering together a group of deities who work well together can be useful for all of them to grow in power faster.
2. You will only be able to give or receive raw divine power from others in your pantheon;
3. Most importantly: because of the ties between the deities of your pantheon, you will be able to use your divine power in ways that you couldn't do alone (see below).
The disadvantages of being in a Pantheon directly relate to those two advantages:
1. If you are at odds with your allies, and/or they suffered tremendous setbacks, you will also be weakened somewhat;
2. You will not be able to receive or give raw divine power to anyone outside that pantheon, no matter how much you want it.
As for the advantages and disadvantages of NOT being in a pantheon:
1. Your power growth will not be influenced (either positively or negatively) by the growth or weakening of anyone else;
2. You will be able to exchange divine power only with others who are not in a pantheon.
So basically, being in a pantheon gives you a good chance to grow faster (and the more people are in there, the more likely this is to be the case, as it's unlikely so many people would suffer setbacks at the same time); it also gives you a chance to set up a "divine power trade", and to be more flexible with how you use your power. NOT being in a pantheon ensures that no matter how bad it gets for others, you will never be weakened in such an indirect way, and it also means that you are more flexible as to sharing divine power, but you can still use it only within your domain (see below).
As for divine power itself: it will grow slowly, but it will be the only way you have to affect areas where you don't have mortal influence, or to perform miracles. However, normally you will only be able to use it within the boundaries of your domain (creative ideas are welcome, but be careful not to stretch them too far). So if you are a deity of death, you won't be able to use your power to, say, create a bridge. But if you are in a pantheon with the god of construction work, then yes, you will be able to do so (and he in turn will be able to use his power in ways related to your domain).
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variol son
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That sorts the balance out a little, although I still think it's weighted in favour of players creating Pantheons. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. 
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
It is probably a bit skewed towards the participation in Pantheons, that is true. On the other hand, keep in mind that in order for most of those Pantheon-related advantages to be meaningful, you need to actually work together with your allied gods. In other words, if one just makes up a "pantheon of misfits" in hopes of simply reaping the benefits, he or she might find out that those benefits aren't there at all. In other words - as long as the gods in a pantheon work synergistically with each other, then yes, you have a lot of benefits. On the other hand, if there is friction between the deities of a pantheon, or even worse if enmity develops, then... well, you basically lose all benefits of being in a pantheon in the first place.variol son wrote:That sorts the balance out a little, although I still think it's weighted in favour of players creating Pantheons. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Incidentally, it will also be relatively difficult to join and leave pantheons. It will take at least the consensus of three gods to form and maintain a pantheon (so at most you can have 4 pantheons at the same time, each of them with three gods), and I think it will take unanimous consensus of all gods in a pantheon to add someone else to the ranks. On the other hand, you will be able leave a pantheon whenever you want, but you will not be able to rejoin it afterwards.
This reminds me of another thing. I came up with a "disgruntlement" rule which will be easily implemented. As I said before, you will have "influence tokens" in various cities, and you will only be able to wield that mortal influence in those cities; this influence can be used to solve natural problems (i.e. if there is a famine, you can use your influence to, say, have your priests help alleviate suffering by opening your church's granaries). However, some large natural disasters may require more influence than you have in that city; alternately, you may find that the "religious war" going on in a city is getting too heated for you, and you might want to move your priesthood to a city where no gods have a stake. Normally, you will be able to move your influence tokens around (within limits); however, if you will move ALL your influence tokens from one city to elsewhere, the city your priesthood is leaving en masse will become disgruntled towards you (the form of this disgruntlement depends on your god - the local worshippers may be pissed off that your priesthood abandoned them, or the locals may be happy that a tyrannical religion has left and might take up arms to prevent your return, and so on) but in general, disgruntlement will have the effect that you won't be able to move your influence tokens back into that city for a while, because the mortals won't like you.
Also, there will be mortal kingdoms and not just cities. You will not be able to place influence tokens in a kingdom at large, but your influence in that kingdom will be dictated by how much influence you have in its cities in general (so if you have tokens in all the cities of that kingdom, you might be the state religion and therefore have a good deal of influence on its politics).
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Fist and Faith
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Oh, I forgot to mention. Yeah, I like the monikers. Even if there aren't more than one with the same domain, I like the consistency behind the idea.
And I don't know how you'll pick 12 to play (although I'm saving my spare change, in case bribery is required), but it seems P4 will be pretty complex, so I sure hope you stick to the immediate vicinity of 12.
And I don't know how you'll pick 12 to play (although I'm saving my spare change, in case bribery is required), but it seems P4 will be pretty complex, so I sure hope you stick to the immediate vicinity of 12.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
I think I'll pick the first 12 players to register ONCE I OPEN UP REGISTRATION (I already received PMs from some players who wanted to pre-register, but I'd rather make sure everyone has equal chances). And yes, it will be pretty complex - but I've tried to make sure the complexity isn't something I need to keep an eye on. For example, the moniker idea would be implemented automatically in the sheet I use for calculations; the calculations of how gods in the same pantheon rise and fall are also automated; the "disgruntlement" idea would simply be represented by a symbol on the city and it would remain there for a while; and so on.Fist and Faith wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention. Yeah, I like the monikers. Even if there aren't more than one with the same domain, I like the consistency behind the idea.
And I don't know how you'll pick 12 to play (although I'm saving my spare change, in case bribery is required), but it seems P4 will be pretty complex, so I sure hope you stick to the immediate vicinity of 12.
The map will probably be large, to accommodate these graphics - but I'm also considering having a separate post in writing where it indicates who is influent in which city, for those who cannot read the map well. Alternately, of course, you can always download each turn's map and open it up with Photoshop to zoom in...
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Fist and Faith
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I guess I won't start worrying about when you'll be opening up registration just yet. But if I come home from work one day, and find that registration opened at 9AM my time, and was filled in three hours...
No, I'm just joking. I'd be thrilled it P3 went on indefinitely, and will do what I can to make sure it does.
No, I'm just joking. I'd be thrilled it P3 went on indefinitely, and will do what I can to make sure it does.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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Loredoctor
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Agreed. The benefits of being in a pantheon far outweigh the difficulties, and for someone who is not a social player, I can never see myself taking part. I also think the game is becoming too complex - can't gods just be gods?Murrin wrote:Thinking about all this stuff has got me wondering if I make the wrong choices with my characters for these games. I don't seem capable of producing a character that plays well with others, and it seems like my lack of interaction isn't really conducive to the purpose of these games.
P1 & P2 were more fun simply because it was all about godly power. It seems as though the rules are becoming more complex to account for issues others have identified. This is not an attack on Xar; he is doing it all for good intentions. I am just explaining my views.
Anyway, I have decided I will not be taking part in the fourth age - not for the reasons above.
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
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Fist and Faith
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Really, Murrin, your characters' aloofness annoys the hell out of the Bhaktis!
Hey, there's all kinds of deities in the world's mythologies. Your style of playing is every bit as needed as every other style.
That being said, I agree with Lore:
Not to say it's a huge problem, of course. It's still amazing fun, and I'll play if I'm able to register on time. And if it makes it easier and/or more interesting for Xar, then case closed.
Hey, there's all kinds of deities in the world's mythologies. Your style of playing is every bit as needed as every other style.
That being said, I agree with Lore:
Free to interact with anyone in any way we chose, when the only disadvantages we might face are whether or not helping or hurting deity X would please or displease other deities. I'm not a big fan of the built-in advantages and disadvantages.Loremaster wrote:P1 & P2 were more fun simply because it was all about godly power.
Not to say it's a huge problem, of course. It's still amazing fun, and I'll play if I'm able to register on time. And if it makes it easier and/or more interesting for Xar, then case closed.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
The main point that I could see from the discussions about P1, and mostly P2 and P3, was that some players want things to be very simple, they wish to just build their own little utopia and be left alone, while others enjoy the more political aspects. However, in general, many players during P3 have eventually gravitated towards micromanagement - trying to make their own realms, influencing other cities, organizing armies, and the like. Since it seems to me like the focus of many players is in the political arena, I would like to give them the option to work on such things. After all, if you just want to build your little utopia you can just dump all your influence in cities in the area, keep them entirely faithful to you, and that would basically allow you to concentrate more on the worldbuilding aspect. On the other hand, you might want to mess with politics and spread your cult around in order to get more influence.Loremaster wrote:Agreed. The benefits of being in a pantheon far outweigh the difficulties, and for someone who is not a social player, I can never see myself taking part. I also think the game is becoming too complex - can't gods just be gods?Murrin wrote:Thinking about all this stuff has got me wondering if I make the wrong choices with my characters for these games. I don't seem capable of producing a character that plays well with others, and it seems like my lack of interaction isn't really conducive to the purpose of these games.
P1 & P2 were more fun simply because it was all about godly power. It seems as though the rules are becoming more complex to account for issues others have identified. This is not an attack on Xar; he is doing it all for good intentions. I am just explaining my views.
Anyway, I have decided I will not be taking part in the fourth age - not for the reasons above.
As for divine power - as P3 has demonstrated, there is a risk in having too many gods gaining too much power. P2 also suffered from this to a certain extent, although it was less noticeable because there were less overtly evil gods for a long time. So basically the reason why I want to curb divine power in P4 is because this will give players - especially those who want to be left alone - a chance to avoid being targeted by someone who has far too much power on his or her hands. You can easily see how influence spreads, and you can prepare against it; and if your enemies have relatively little power, it's unlikely they'll use it against you.
In a way, I'm trying to reach a compromise between those players who want to build their religion without worrying that a tidal wave sent by the god of being pissed off will destroy everything, and those who can't wait to get political and to start playing religious wars with others.
True, it's getting more complex - but not as much as it sounds, in my opinion. On the other hand, I can understand if some of the old-school players don't want to have anything to do with it - hopefully though, it will be a rewarding and exciting experience for all those who do participate.
And remember - nothing is set in stone, so if you have constructive criticisms or questions about the rules as they are unveiled, by all means go ahead and ask
EDIT: Keep in mind too that a) the advantages/disadvantages thing (at least for Courts) was already there; the monikers are just an idea, and I have to see if it is viable. b) these rules can enhance the competition aspect of the game for those who are interested in it, and won't harm those who want to play by themselves. But they have an additional effect: they'll hopefully give the freedom to create almost any kind of character, so that maybe we'll have a more even distribution of moralities (and then things would get really fun
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Xar, I have to disagree. The level of politics in P2 was quite simply outstanding (the greatest age in the game). The game did not have pantheons, and nor did it need them; it was fascinating to see the factions build simply because of the dynamics of the world. Now the game is heading towards political parties and the independents - like the real world. I don't think gods of mythology woke up and had patheon x or y to move into. I'd prefer to see gods just bunch together and act in some common interest.
But, I am sure the players of the fourth age will have a fantastic time!
But, I am sure the players of the fourth age will have a fantastic time!
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
On the other hand, I did always feel that - as was mentioned before - the mortal side of the world was very underrepresented. There were no kingdoms or realms outside of what the gods made - it was a bit too static. Even P1 had these features, although they weren't used that much... and if you have mortal kingdoms, which the gods can or cannot influence, then you have to have some politics.Loremaster wrote:Xar, I have to disagree. The level of politics in P2 was quite simply outstanding (the greatest age in the game). The game did not have pantheons, and nor did it need them; it was fascinating to see the factions build simply because of the dynamics of the world. Now the game is heading towards political parties and the independents - like the real world. I don't think gods of mythology woke up and had patheon x or y to move into. I'd prefer to see gods just bunch together and act in some common interest.
But, I am sure the players of the fourth age will have a fantastic time!
The concept of forming your own pantheon is an idea, and that's after all why we're here - to discuss these changes. If a majority of people don't like them, then they can be dropped before the game even starts
Hmm, maybe I should start a few polls to see what players think...
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Loredoctor
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I completely agree.Xar wrote:On the other hand, I did always feel that - as was mentioned before - the mortal side of the world was very underrepresented. There were no kingdoms or realms outside of what the gods made - it was a bit too static.
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!