Would the Bloodguard have made any difference?

[Thorhammerhand]

Yet in LFB lord Mhoram says, ' The Bloodgaurd are only five hundred-a pittance for any task other than the defense of Revelstone'

Yes, they had lost some half dozen or so that could not be replaced (see Bannor's explanation to TC of the Bloodgaurd's service), but those did not compromise the Bloodgaurd, rather it was due to their corruption that they lost faith with themselves.

[peter]

Agree with WF and HLT. The Haruchai were always very susceptible to coercion, and the Illearth Stone was put into use against the citizens of Revelstone in that manner. Imagine for a moment, nearly 500 Bloodguard under the control of Satansfist, inside the gates of Revelstone, wiping out every man, woman and child.

The Haruchi suceptable to coercion? Remember Kasreyn of the Gyre!

[Thorhammerhand]

Yes Kyrsten could not change the minds of the Haruchi that attached them selves to the quest, but they were forwarned of his power by the unnatural hustin. They had no warning and thus no defence against the clave attacking as they did when the Na-Morhram faked his attack on the krill in Sunders hand.

[wayfriend]

Thorhammerhand, that wasn't the only time the Haruchai fell to the Clave's coercion.

"Halfhand, you know that our work requires blood," Gibbon continued reasonably. "As the Sunbane grows, the Banefire must grow to resist it. We are long beyond the time when the people of the Land could meet all our need.

"Five generations past, when Offin na-Mhoram led the Clave, he was faced with the defeat of our dream. He had neared the limit of what the Land could supply, and it did not suffice. I will not dwell on his despair. It is enough to say that at that time - by chance or mercy - the Haruchai came to our aid."

He shrugged. "It is true that they did not intend the aid we found in them. Five came from the Westron Mountains in the name of their legends, seeking the Council. But Offin did not flinch his opportunity. He took the five captive.

"With the passage of time, five more came in search of their lost kindred. These also were captured. They were hardy and feral, but the power of the Banefire mastered them. And later more Haruchai came seeking the lost. First by five, then by ten, then by the score they came, with long lapses between. They are a stubborn people, and generation after generation they did not relent. Generation after generation, they were captured." Covenant thought he saw a glint of amusement in Gibbon's red eyes. "As their numbers increased, so grew the Banefire. Thus not a one of them prevailed or escaped.

"Their most recent foray comprised fivescore - a veritable army in their sight." Gibbon's blandness sounded like the serenity of a pure heart. "Threescore and seven remain."

...


"Ur-Lord," Ceer said then, "the Clave gathers about the Banefire. We harry them, and they make no forays - but there is great power in their hands. And four more of the Haruchai have been slain. We have guided all prisoners from Revelstone. We watch over them as we can. Yet they are not safe. The Clave holds coercion to sway our minds, if they but choose to exert it. We know this to our cost. We must flee."

[Thorhammerhand]

Fair point.

My instance was just to point out the difference in the conditions leading to the vaunrability of the bloodgaurd.

[wayfriend]

Admittedly, only the Clave seemed to have the power to coerce the Haruchai. But it was knowledge born of the Ravers, who have long known and hated them. And it was powered by corrupted Earthpower, and the Haruchai are beings that partake of Earthpower. It seems to me that a Giant Raver with a fragment of the Illearth Stone could conceivably also have done it, where Kasreyn could not. (Kasreyn was the one who was not forewarned; he had never met any Haruchai, and so was not prepared to dominate them.)

[peter]

Sorry Wayfriend - can't agree that the Haruchai are beings that 'partake of earthpower'. The Bloodguards vow certainly - the Haruchai as Bloodguard, possibly, but the Haruchai as inhabitants of the Westron Mountains, no. They are beyond the reach of earthpower in thier homeland and are not touched by it when they visit the Land - they are not, you will remember, even registered by the sunbane (much in the manner of Covenants boots) and hence have no need to be warded from this corruption of earthpower.

[wayfriend]

Well, the "Haruchai as Bloodguard" are certainly what pertains if the question is about the defense of Revelstone in the First Chronicles.

I think it's open to interpretation whether or not the Haruchai in general partake of Earthpower. The author would tell you that they do, I think. (And then he would tell you that your own interpretation is just as valid.) I base this on some comments in the GI.

The Haruchai are magical--or magic-ful--people in the same sense that the Ranyhyn are magical horses.
(11/30/2006)

As I see it, if you consider that the Haruchai eschew lore completely, something like their Vow could not have occurred had not they had some intrinsic, unconscious ability to weild Earthpower.

[24hoursago]

the bloodguard probably would not have made any difference but they are servants of the land and thus deserve the saftey of revelstone at that time. where else would they have gone, back to thier mountain fastness where high lord kevin sent them in the past before he enacted the ritual of desecration. i dont think so.

[Thorhammerhand]

Sorry Wayfriend - can't agree that the Haruchai are beings that 'partake of earthpower'.

No. The Haruchi still live within their mountain fastness. In their way, they know the name of Earthpower more surely than any Lord.

However I still hold to my 'unprepared for coercion' theory. I hear that Kystern of the Gyre was unprepared for the Haruchi in the quest, to his loss. The Ravers, on the other hand knew the speed and/or skill/trick that was needed to overwhelm their defenses.

[peter]

Well, the "Haruchai as Bloodguard" are certainly what pertains if the question is about the defense of Revelstone in the First Chronicles.

I think it's open to interpretation whether or not the Haruchai in general partake of Earthpower. The author would tell you that they do, I think. (And then he would tell you that your own interpretation is just as valid.) I base this on some comments in the GI.

The Haruchai are magical--or magic-ful--people in the same sense that the Ranyhyn are magical horses.
(11/30/2006)

As I see it, if you consider that the Haruchai eschew lore completely, something like their Vow could not have occurred had not they had some intrinsic, unconscious ability to weild Earthpower.

I think the conequence of thier vow was something that was imposed upon them and not somthing that they partook of, be it willingly or unwillingly. Clearly I cannot gainsay Donaldson in his description of the haruchai as 'magical or magic-ful' but this does not in my opinion relate to Earthpower (which seems to be localised in the Land and radiating out from its scource under Melenkurion Skyweir), but more to the generalised 'magic' we encounter in all parts of Donaldsons Earth ie The Elhoim, The One Tree, The Giants, Brathair etc.

[Thorhammerhand]

Spoiler

When Liand tell LA that mithil Stonedown had been visited by the Elohim, she refers to them as 'Earth-powerful beings'.

In the SC they are described as 'Earthpower incarnate'.

As a result I speculate that Earthpower is found in it's concentrated form under Melenkurion Skyweir, but is distributed throughout the world, partaken of more heavily in the Land (possibly) but not exclusively.

However, I agree that the Bloodgaurd Vow is NOT earthpowerful but from another as-yet-undefined source.

[wayfriend]

It is sure that the Vow arises from Earthpower.

[Bannor said] "I came to the Land with the first Haruchai, when Kevin was young in High Lordship. Together we first uttered the Vow of service. Together we called upon the Earthpower to witness our commitment. Now we do not return home until we have been slain."

The Haruchai yet live within their mountain fastness. In their way, they know the name of the Earthpower more surely than any Lord.

-------
But I think we digress a bit from the thread topic.

Ravers could not possess the Haruchai. They were too strong, as the Giants were too strong. However, give those Ravers more power, like a fragment of the Illearth Stone, and even the Giants can fall to Ravers. Could the Bloodguard have remained immune where the Giants failed? Maybe, Maybe not -- we have to admit, there's a distinct possibility. Those three Bloodguard that returned from Coercri with green fire in their eyes succombed. They believed that they would fight the Despiser. But he made them his own.

In the end, the Bloodguard ended their Vow, for this very reason: they could be coerced into serving Despite.

[Darkdenubis]

Coerced isn't the same as possession though, even if the result is the same. While the Bloodguard and Haruchai can be overcome by pure power, I would submit that they are completely IMMUNE to being possessed. Kasreyn's power was more finesse then dominating, he simply lacked the strength to overcome a Haruchai.

[peter]

I believe in TWL in refference to the bloodguards vow and earthpower it says words to the effect that earthpower took thier vow and turned it into something that they had not intended it to be, but be that as it may.... agreed, we are off topic.
Undoubtedly Kasreyns power was a form of coercion compared to the Ravers acts of possesion - and probably not in the same league in terms of its power over its victims . But the bloodguard en mass would have been to much for Foul plus all the ravers to master - and I have no doubt that the Bloodguard would have killed thier own at the first sign of 'possesion' (which thier thought speech would have made them instantly aware of) in order to maintain the Vow. No - for me the presence of the Bloodguard would undoubtedly made a difference at the seige of Revelstone but thier absence there has more to do with thier inhuman inflexibility - a severly limiting factor of thier usefulness in any situation. (Forgive me Bannor)