Im amazed how much info about the Despiser's past is in this chapter. Probably more that all the other books combined. I was shocked when he couldn't approach the One Tree because of the Elohim Guardian. I always assumed he was more powerful than the Elohim. Maybe he is but only in his own way? A "limited" Lord Foul is probably a cooler opponent than an all consuming one because his evil achievements require more efforts and manipulations. Making him "badder" because he works harder at his evil deeds, than if it was all so effortless.
Awesome chapter - I printed it out and read it like 10 times already. If I remember right - there were 2 chapter previews for one or both the other new books. Lets hope we get another soon.
Chapter 1 (***yes, there will be spoilers!!!***)
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Vraith
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I don't know...depends on how you read Mhorams intent/meaning: I always thought he was implying that choices like that one are the...what's that french? raison detre? [I know there are accent marks in there, and maybe sp. problem]...for choice at all....it might not save the world from destruction, but it's a kind and/or quality of choice that the forces really responsible for destruction could never make.
[which could lead me to a whole rant about the problems of the "sacrifice 1 to save 1000" logic...but I won't do it..at least not here, not now]
[which could lead me to a whole rant about the problems of the "sacrifice 1 to save 1000" logic...but I won't do it..at least not here, not now]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
I don't think the parallel between Covenant's choice in TPTP and Linden's choice is quite as strong.I like how you make the connection between Linden's reviving Covenant and Covenant saving the little girl... very interesting! Everything Linden is doing is for the purpose of saving Jeremiah...
The way I read it, Covenant saw a choice between saving the girl, or saving the Land. He chose to save the girl. That choice might well have doomed the Land, but it was in no way a conscious choice to harm the Land.
Linden, it seems to me, isn't just choosing between Jeremiah and the Land, but it seems she's willing to actively harm the Land in order to save Jeremiah.
To me, there's a huge difference there.
Vraith: Raison d'être. (and I liked your perspective on the choice.)
Thanks to matrixman and Orlion for the welcome!
starklir: I did not recognize examples of Linden willing to harm the land. Did I miss one?
She has abdicated the project to help it, but she also knows, by now, that Jeremiah's life will be in the Land, at best; and suspected it before. So though she was not focused on the Land, she also made sure not to harm it fatally (eg by collapsing the arch of time in her jaunt in the past.) Though I'll also admit she was not calculating risks too closely either. But as others have pointed out, neither was Covenant in the 1st chronicles.
Also, to be clearer: I had meant to make the parallel both with Linden's efforts towards Jeremiah and towards Covenant. The second case is a bit weaker, as
1) Saving Covenant, who had a full life ending in self-sacrifice, does not feel morally equivalent to saving either child (why?)
2) she hopes Covenant will help her find Jeremiah, so it's not fully disinterested.
I thought of those, but I believe that she also wanted to get Covenant back for her own sake (not his, mind you; the child parallel requires more selflessness than that!) and... because she hopes Covenant can save the Land!
And this is what I beg to differ with you, starklir: one key purpose in reviving Covenant is enabling him to act on behalf of the Land. (more directly than as a Timewarden.) A selfless act, at least in part.
And this is why I thought that the parallel with saving the little girl could stand. Kinda. (But the relationship with saving Jeremiah is clearly stronger.)
Regards to all
Thanks to matrixman and Orlion for the welcome!
starklir: I did not recognize examples of Linden willing to harm the land. Did I miss one?
She has abdicated the project to help it, but she also knows, by now, that Jeremiah's life will be in the Land, at best; and suspected it before. So though she was not focused on the Land, she also made sure not to harm it fatally (eg by collapsing the arch of time in her jaunt in the past.) Though I'll also admit she was not calculating risks too closely either. But as others have pointed out, neither was Covenant in the 1st chronicles.
Also, to be clearer: I had meant to make the parallel both with Linden's efforts towards Jeremiah and towards Covenant. The second case is a bit weaker, as
1) Saving Covenant, who had a full life ending in self-sacrifice, does not feel morally equivalent to saving either child (why?)
2) she hopes Covenant will help her find Jeremiah, so it's not fully disinterested.
I thought of those, but I believe that she also wanted to get Covenant back for her own sake (not his, mind you; the child parallel requires more selflessness than that!) and... because she hopes Covenant can save the Land!
And this is what I beg to differ with you, starklir: one key purpose in reviving Covenant is enabling him to act on behalf of the Land. (more directly than as a Timewarden.) A selfless act, at least in part.
And this is why I thought that the parallel with saving the little girl could stand. Kinda. (But the relationship with saving Jeremiah is clearly stronger.)
Regards to all
(Separate post, for a separate topic)
Another option did come to my mind: Jeremiah can create portals between worlds. Could the Land be lost and some/most of its people be saved that way? Interesting idea, but I doubt it. We have been made to care about the Land itself; the nobility of its inhabitants is a reflexion of the Land's munificence. Undoing the Land (without redoing it somehow!) would almost feel more brutal than killing its inhabitants.
But those portals... will have a role. Might they allow Foul to escape the prison of Creation? Preferably after merging with TC! But if it's so simple, why is Foul not doing it now? The necessity of freedom does not seem to apply to Jeremiah's portals, so far. Questions, questions.
I'm sure others have thought along those lines, and we're definitely going beyond Chap. 1. Shouldn't there be a general rampant speculation section outside of the per-book forums?
No kidding, the mind boggles at the idea that SRD might indeed destroy the Land! But if, as said elsewhere on the watch, Foul and Covenant are to realize their unity, the Land has "accomplished its mission" as a container for a one-sided evil. And its nature would change deeply, without perforce being destroyed. It would certainly suffice to ensure the finality of Covenant's chronicles, which SRD was adamant about.Orlion wrote: As Mhoram side (paraphrasing) " The Land will not be undone by such actions."
Of course, this seems to fly in the face of that
Another option did come to my mind: Jeremiah can create portals between worlds. Could the Land be lost and some/most of its people be saved that way? Interesting idea, but I doubt it. We have been made to care about the Land itself; the nobility of its inhabitants is a reflexion of the Land's munificence. Undoing the Land (without redoing it somehow!) would almost feel more brutal than killing its inhabitants.
But those portals... will have a role. Might they allow Foul to escape the prison of Creation? Preferably after merging with TC! But if it's so simple, why is Foul not doing it now? The necessity of freedom does not seem to apply to Jeremiah's portals, so far. Questions, questions.
I'm sure others have thought along those lines, and we're definitely going beyond Chap. 1. Shouldn't there be a general rampant speculation section outside of the per-book forums?
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Vraith
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There are several threads for predictions/wishes/speculations, though finding them could be very time consuming...so MANY threads here. Anyway, they exist...hopefully some God-like Mod will see your post and have the links handy...I can only boost your spirits and say "they do exist!"amapa wrote: I'm sure others have thought along those lines, and we're definitely going beyond Chap. 1. Shouldn't there be a general rampant speculation section outside of the per-book forums?
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Orlion
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Which is an interesting parallel to Covenant in the 1st Chronicles.... Linden is starting to make compromises (deals) to try to avoid what is essentially her responsibility....amapa wrote:... because she hopes Covenant can save the Land!
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
I think there is a thread somewhere (there was one in the FR if I remember correctly). I'll see if I can find it...or hopefully dlb will save the day...or wayfriend...or.... I have a memory like a sieve so I'm totally unreliable!amapa wrote:I'm sure others have thought along those lines, and we're definitely going beyond Chap. 1. Shouldn't there be a general rampant speculation section outside of the per-book forums?
Great first section.. but it also brings up alot of questions, esp bout Foul.
Kasreyn of the Gyre is NOT an Insequent.
He(Foul) has had more failures than Carter's has little pills.
It talks about his attempts that breach over the ages. So what is considered an age? 1000 years? 10,000 who knows.
and Foul even has his dispair.. that is hidden from himself.
Sure sounds like a loser to me.
SRD sure did pack alot of info in a small section.
Wow.. just wow..
Is this a new people we will get to hear about? Are they the croyel?Demimages of Vidik Amar, who wielded a contingent magic; but he found that when he had corrupted them to his purpose, they turned against each other, diminishing themselves in the name of Despite.
Kasreyn of the Gyre is NOT an Insequent.
He(Foul) has had more failures than Carter's has little pills.
It talks about his attempts that breach over the ages. So what is considered an age? 1000 years? 10,000 who knows.
So Foul may have be trying to break the Arch for a very long time.Nevertheless the Haruchai’s words were too recent: they could not break the grip of Lord Foul’s striving across hundreds or thousands of centuries.
and Foul even has his dispair.. that is hidden from himself.
Sure sounds like a loser to me.
SRD sure did pack alot of info in a small section.
Wow.. just wow..
What's this silver looking ring doing on my finger?
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Romeo
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(Narnia spoilers! .... wanted to provide warning just in case)
Regarding Donaldson destroying the Land... I'll remind everyone that the Chronicles share a lot more with Narnia than with LoTR (IMHO). Narnia is its own "universe" in which the White Witch was trapped. Rings were originally used to move between the worlds (then were buried in the back yard, a tree grew over them, and that tree was later cut down and used to make the Wardrobe). Then we compare "The Last Dark" with "The Last Battle." An orangutan disguised a donkey as Aslan (by throwing a lion skin over him) in an attempt to gain power. Very much like the glamour used by the Land's "ape and poor, innocent, donkey" - Roger and Jeremiah. Going to the end of "The Last Battle," Narnia is destroyed. Or "unmade." I still can't figure out exactly what happened or why. But if I remember correctly, everything in Narnia got sucked through a DOOR and into oblivion/eternity. Which is almost word-for-word how the Roger or the croyel described Jeremiah's capabilities at one point.
And THEN (as if we need an "and then"), SRD himself said in a 1991 interview (I think that year is correct) that this last set of books would be called the "Last Chronicles" because the earth would be destroyed (or something to that effect). He did admit later to being a bit flip with that answer, but I'm not so sure about that.
So. I see "the Land and Earth being destroyed in the end" as inevitable. But I'm interested to see how it happens and how we get there. A warning about the AATE chapters 2 - 24 part of the journey: better buckle up!
Regarding Donaldson destroying the Land... I'll remind everyone that the Chronicles share a lot more with Narnia than with LoTR (IMHO). Narnia is its own "universe" in which the White Witch was trapped. Rings were originally used to move between the worlds (then were buried in the back yard, a tree grew over them, and that tree was later cut down and used to make the Wardrobe). Then we compare "The Last Dark" with "The Last Battle." An orangutan disguised a donkey as Aslan (by throwing a lion skin over him) in an attempt to gain power. Very much like the glamour used by the Land's "ape and poor, innocent, donkey" - Roger and Jeremiah. Going to the end of "The Last Battle," Narnia is destroyed. Or "unmade." I still can't figure out exactly what happened or why. But if I remember correctly, everything in Narnia got sucked through a DOOR and into oblivion/eternity. Which is almost word-for-word how the Roger or the croyel described Jeremiah's capabilities at one point.
And THEN (as if we need an "and then"), SRD himself said in a 1991 interview (I think that year is correct) that this last set of books would be called the "Last Chronicles" because the earth would be destroyed (or something to that effect). He did admit later to being a bit flip with that answer, but I'm not so sure about that.
So. I see "the Land and Earth being destroyed in the end" as inevitable. But I'm interested to see how it happens and how we get there. A warning about the AATE chapters 2 - 24 part of the journey: better buckle up!
And then the ravens pecked out his eyes.
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thranathiril
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Well, not exactly the end of Narnia as you describe it.
At the end of the Last Battle, there is a door created somehow (can't remember by who, probably Aslan). To escape the destruction of Narnia, all the creatures run towards the door, where Aslan is standing. Those that reject him run past the door and dwindle (?may be misremembering at this point) into normal creatures and disappear into the darkness. Those that look Aslan in the face and accept him get to go through the doorway.
Beyond the doorway is either Aslan's country, or a more Narnia-like Narnia.
The most direct correlation between the two that I can see is the doorway - we already have seen Jeremiah's ability to construct things, and Roger has talked of getting him to construct a doorway.
At the end of the Last Battle, there is a door created somehow (can't remember by who, probably Aslan). To escape the destruction of Narnia, all the creatures run towards the door, where Aslan is standing. Those that reject him run past the door and dwindle (?may be misremembering at this point) into normal creatures and disappear into the darkness. Those that look Aslan in the face and accept him get to go through the doorway.
Beyond the doorway is either Aslan's country, or a more Narnia-like Narnia.
The most direct correlation between the two that I can see is the doorway - we already have seen Jeremiah's ability to construct things, and Roger has talked of getting him to construct a doorway.
(maybe the Mayan prophesy of the world ending in 2012 means that the Land will be sucked into our world! 
I can dream...)-
Romeo
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Thank you thranathiril! It's been a while for me, too. Although not so long that I should have forgotten stuff like that. I never read the series as a kid - I went through them all just before the first Narnia movie came out. And visuals from a book usually stick in my memory very well.
Although I never really looked for it while I was reading, I always scratch my head when people mention the strong ties to Christianity. I don't know why my brain didn't make the connection as I read (and it's even hard for me to look back and see that connection). People say, "Aslan is a Christ figure." I say, "ohhhhhhhh...." and nod my head a lot while my brain cavitates and goes into vapor lock. But in your description of that last scene it's certainly hard to miss! Really - THANK YOU for that!!
I remember the door, and I remember "sucking." But maybe it was that Narnia was being destroyed or sucked away or something, and all those people and animals were running away from the destruction? I didn't remember another Narnia on the "other side." What I remember is a bunch of robed people standing around (in blackness or greyness?) and verbally patting each other on the back. It seemed like a non-ending ending. Or something like, "well, Narnia is gone - let's go have a spot of tea. The End."
But the glamour, and the door, and the armies, and the FLOIVAL! (that last part has to be read with your Jerry Lewis voice) I smell doom and destruction for the Land. But perhaps afterwards there will be tea.
Although I never really looked for it while I was reading, I always scratch my head when people mention the strong ties to Christianity. I don't know why my brain didn't make the connection as I read (and it's even hard for me to look back and see that connection). People say, "Aslan is a Christ figure." I say, "ohhhhhhhh...." and nod my head a lot while my brain cavitates and goes into vapor lock. But in your description of that last scene it's certainly hard to miss!
Really - THANK YOU for that!!I remember the door, and I remember "sucking." But maybe it was that Narnia was being destroyed or sucked away or something, and all those people and animals were running away from the destruction? I didn't remember another Narnia on the "other side." What I remember is a bunch of robed people standing around (in blackness or greyness?) and verbally patting each other on the back. It seemed like a non-ending ending. Or something like, "well, Narnia is gone - let's go have a spot of tea. The End."
But the glamour, and the door, and the armies, and the FLOIVAL! (that last part has to be read with your Jerry Lewis voice) I smell doom and destruction for the Land. But perhaps afterwards there will be tea.
And then the ravens pecked out his eyes.
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High Lord Tolkien
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amapa wrote: Questions, questions.
I'm sure others have thought along those lines, and we're definitely going beyond Chap. 1. Shouldn't there be a general rampant speculation section outside of the per-book forums?
Hello amapa.
There are several prediction threads out there scattered around various forums over the years.
Here's one.
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
Just dig in and have fun.
Don't worry about repeating anything.
We all love to speculate!
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
I deliberately skipped over your Narnia comparisons, Romeo - but thanks for the warning, I appreciate it!
I like to ponder what might happen within the story of AATE, but I'm avoiding predictions about the ultimate end of the Last Chronicles.
(I'm even gonna avoid them when The Last Dark comes around.)
I like to ponder what might happen within the story of AATE, but I'm avoiding predictions about the ultimate end of the Last Chronicles.
(I'm even gonna avoid them when The Last Dark comes around.)
matrixman wrote:Loric was the High Lord I most wanted to know more about, so this golden nugget of information floors me. But he roamed the depths of Melenkurion Skyweir alone? And no assistants helped him forge the krill? All this just reaffirms to me what a badass Loric was.
Quite agree with you on this. We got to meet Berek in FR and learn a bit about him. Now, it's time to get to know Loric. We already know too much about Kevin (little bitch that he is). Damelon is cool, of course, as the original Giantfriend, but Berek and Loric are the really great Old High Lords, IMHO.
Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem.
Fratres, quod in vitae spatium agimus in aeternum resonat.
Vis et Honor.
Fratres, quod in vitae spatium agimus in aeternum resonat.
Vis et Honor.
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Fist and Faith
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Fist and Faith
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I'm worried because I have a very low opinion of the Final Chrons so far. The First & Second Chrons are among the best things ever written, imo. I hate being so badly disappointed with the Final. Something I would have bet serious money couldn't have happened.danlo wrote:What in the BLEEP are you worried about Fist? settle, settle.............
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon