Size of the Illearth Stone?

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Post by stonemaybe »

Peter wrote:
the stone is shown to be hemi-spherical, smooth of surface, approximatly 10 feet in diameter
That's always how I imagined the Illearth Stone (and I've never read the 'Atlas..'), except that I saw it as spherical, with the bottom half buried in the ground of the throne room. It would have to be that big for Saltheart to think it would be a struggle for him to lift. Covenant throwing his arms around it, in my mind, was him kneeling on the floor beside it with his arms around it towards the top of the sphere.

I must admit I've read LFB alot less than that bit in TPTP so Drool 'gripping' it didn't register with me.
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Post by peter »

Stonemaybe wrote:...except that I saw it as spherical, with the bottom half buried in the ground of the throne room.
Funnily enough I imagined it this way but dropped into a concentric semi-circular depression in the dias when I first saw Fonstad's drawing. I only abbandoned it for the hemi-spherical one on the basis of the dias not being deep enough, but if one were to imagine the pit sunk also into the floor below the dias, then the sperical model could work - and would be aesthetically much more satisfying.
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Post by Cat Butt »

Was any reference ever made to the size of the Raver's chips in relation to the Illearth Stone itself? We know that Kinslaughterer's stone was large (or small, depending on your perspective) enough to fit within an adult giant's skull, closed within Kinslaughterer's fist if I recall correctly?

Humans can palm basketball sized objects with one hand, and adding facets/irregularities to the surface can add considerable gripping power. Expand the size of the hand to that of a cavewight's, designed to deal intimately with rock, and the size of the object that Drool could hold would be great indeed. The only remaining question would be the weight of the Illearth Stone itself, and no reference is ever made to the density of it's matieral.

I'm liking the grow your own crystal theory myself.
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Post by Ur Dead »

I see the IlEarth Stone as being 3.5' or 1 meter in diameter.

If 3 pieces where removed from the stone for the Giant Ravers.

Isn't there descriptions of the fragments that the Ravers held?
I believe they were large enough that a Giant couldn't wrap his hand fully around it.

This would determine the size of the Main Stone.
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Post by Barnetto »

Orlion wrote:The Illearth Stone is able to be broken up as well... it had at least three pieces that a Giant could hold in his fist... who knows if Drool had broken off a piece as well?
Well, if you watch Episode 39 of Fantasy Bed Time Hour in which SRD appears himself (well worth watching his section as expert...!) he explains that DR is holding a small piece of the Illearth Stone. His conception was that LF got DR to dig it up for him, but only allowed him a small piece. He doesn't explain in detail how it might have been broken up, but he is specific as to DR only having a slice of the larger stone.
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Post by wayfriend »

Barnetto wrote:Well, if you watch Episode 39 of Fantasy Bed Time Hour in which SRD appears himself (well worth watching his section as expert...!) he explains that DR is holding a small piece of the Illearth Stone. His conception was that LF got DR to dig it up for him, but only allowed him a small piece. He doesn't explain in detail how it might have been broken up, but he is specific as to DR only having a slice of the larger stone.
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Post by Bill Assumpcao »

Barnetto wrote:Well, if you watch Episode 39 of Fantasy Bed Time Hour in which SRD appears himself (well worth watching his section as expert...!) he explains that DR is holding a small piece of the Illearth Stone. His conception was that LF got DR to dig it up for him, but only allowed him a small piece. He doesn't explain in detail how it might have been broken up, but he is specific as to DR only having a slice of the larger stone.
Thank you Barnetto,
That was frickin' great. It had me ROFLMFAO.
I only watched episode 1 and episode 39, but will go back and watch others.
For anyone interested the address is:

fantasybedtimehour.com/

Query...SRD's t-shirt has DOTARD printed on the front. Does anyone know what that means?

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Post by DukkhaWaynhim »

Dotard -- it's the noun form to describe someone who experiences dotage. Think doddering old fool, and you'll have pretty well.

btw -- I own my own dotard t-shirt. I wear it with forgetful pride!

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Post by Bill Assumpcao »

Thanks Dukkha,
I assumed, since it was capitalized, that it was some kinda' acronym.
Doh! :roll:
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Post by Barnetto »

Bill Assumpcao wrote:That was frickin' great. It had me ROFLMFAO.
I only watched episode 1 and episode 39, but will go back and watch others.
As far as I can see, SRD appears in three episodes - 27, 39 and 40 - you've got to hand it to him for wholeheartedly throwing himself into it, whilst being made to wear a series of increasingly ridiculous wigs/headwear.... and as he labours valiantly to introduce the occasional serious comment and insight against formidible odds..... it is occasionally LOL
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Post by soft one »

Barnetto wrote:As far as I can see, SRD appears in three episodes - 27, 39 and 40 - you've got to hand it to him for wholeheartedly throwing himself into it, whilst being made to wear a series of increasingly ridiculous wigs/headwear.... and as he labours valiantly to introduce the occasional serious comment and insight against formidible odds..... it is occasionally LOL
How in the world does he manage to not correct their mispronunciations?
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Post by wayfriend »

soft one wrote:
Barnetto wrote:As far as I can see, SRD appears in three episodes - 27, 39 and 40 - you've got to hand it to him for wholeheartedly throwing himself into it, whilst being made to wear a series of increasingly ridiculous wigs/headwear.... and as he labours valiantly to introduce the occasional serious comment and insight against formidible odds..... it is occasionally LOL
How in the world does he manage to not correct their mispronunciations?
As far as I can tell, he quite enjoys adopting their mispronounciations.
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Post by Blackhawk »

Barnetto wrote:
Orlion wrote:The Illearth Stone is able to be broken up as well... it had at least three pieces that a Giant could hold in his fist... who knows if Drool had broken off a piece as well?
Well, if you watch Episode 39 of Fantasy Bed Time Hour in which SRD appears himself (well worth watching his section as expert...!) he explains that DR is holding a small piece of the Illearth Stone. His conception was that LF got DR to dig it up for him, but only allowed him a small piece. He doesn't explain in detail how it might have been broken up, but he is specific as to DR only having a slice of the larger stone.

SERIOUSLY????? wow... so drool was only allowed a piece of the stone?now i wonder..was the stone broken and Fould guided him to the smaller fragment letting him believe it was in fact the illearth stone itself?

that would explain how drool appeared at the entrance/Exit the quest took to escape holding it in his hand.

now is one of those times I really wish we had those many many pages that were required to be hacked out, though it may not even be there.
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Post by wayfriend »

It doesn't make sense to me either, Blackhawk.

Early in LFB, Foul says, "He searches for the Illearth Stone." It doesn't sound there like Foul has the Stone. And if Drool found the Stone, how is it that he only ended up with a piece of it, and Foul the rest? Later, in TIW, Elena said, "Drool possessed the Staff, and with it unearthed the buried bane, the Illearth Stone. By reason of these powers, the Despiser was at Drool's mercy while the Cavewight lived." That doesn't sound like Foul could take away Drool's Stone. In fact, Foul would not be at Drools mercy if he had the main part of the Stone while Drool had only a piece.

In TWL, when Sill says, "He has the Illearth Stone," Hyrim replies, "No ... That is only a fragment of the Stone! The Illearth Stone itself - is much larger!" So we know that the Lords know how big the Stone is. But why then did they never comment about the Stone they saw in Drools hand? The didn't notice it was a fragment, and they never even suspected that splitting the Stone was possible until they met the Giant Raver.

Pah!

Drool had the whole Illearth Stone in his hand. If it's size in LFB is a bit inconsistent with it's size in TPTP, I don't really care.

You know ... before Drool emerged from Mount Thunder, he had been swimming in the cold Soulsease river which flows beneath the mountain. That was why he was crying "There was shrinkage!!!" when everyone noticed the size of his Stone.
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote:It doesn't make sense to me either, Blackhawk.

Early in LFB, Foul says, "He searches for the Illearth Stone." It doesn't sound there like Foul has the Stone. And if Drool found the Stone, how is it that he only ended up with a piece of it, and Foul the rest? Later, in TIW, Elena said, "Drool possessed the Staff, and with it unearthed the buried bane, the Illearth Stone. By reason of these powers, the Despiser was at Drool's mercy while the Cavewight lived." That doesn't sound like Foul could take away Drool's Stone. In fact, Foul would not be at Drools mercy if he had the main part of the Stone while Drool had only a piece.

In TWL, when Sill says, "He has the Illearth Stone," Hyrim replies, "No ... That is only a fragment of the Stone! The Illearth Stone itself - is much larger!" So we know that the Lords know how big the Stone is. But why then did they never comment about the Stone they saw in Drools hand? The didn't notice it was a fragment, and they never even suspected that splitting the Stone was possible until they met the Giant Raver.

Pah!

Drool had the whole Illearth Stone in his hand. If it's size in LFB is a bit inconsistent with it's size in TPTP, I don't really care.

You know ... before Drool emerged from Mount Thunder, he had been swimming in the cold Soulsease river which flows beneath the mountain. That was why he was crying "There was shrinkage!!!" when everyone noticed the size of his Stone.
Yes, my understanding was that LF wanted TC to take his message to the Lords so that they would recover the Staff of Law because DR was potentially a threat to LF at that stage. LF was still not sufficiently powerful at this point to control DR. Ergo, it doesn't really make sense that he could simply ensure that Drool only takes a piece of the Stone when he unearths it, keeping the rest for his own use.

Interestingly, however, in the Fantasy Bedtime Hour (you might have noticed that I'm a fan...! :lol: ) SRD posits a different reason for LF wanting the Lords to obtain the Staff from Drool. He doesn't say, "Well, Drool was too powerful at that stage for LF to control him....". What he says is that LF wants the Lords to be sufficiently powerful that the eventual battle (and their eventual failure) is sufficiently epic to serve his purposes. He isn't specific, but it seems the idea is that the eventual battle needs either to be sufficiently apocalyptic to threaten the arch of time (combined with the summoning of white gold) or at least to lead to a second Desecration?

So perhaps we are misled by the Lord's interpretation of the circumstances. Perhaps it is they that posit that LF needs them to stop Drool, but in reality LF does have sufficient control over Drool? After all, he takes TC from him, he does not tolerate Drool's threat and he must have known that Drool would be poisoned by the use of the Staff to the point of weakness such that he would not be a long term threat to LF.

Thinking about it I'm inclined now to go with this misinformation theory. LF did in reality have enough control over Drool from the outset to take the Illearth Stone from him when he found it (allowing him to retain only a small piece). The real reason that LF needed the Lords to obtain the Staff from Drool was not to prevent Drool threatening LF but to ensure that the ensuing meeting of force between the Lords and LF was sufficiently monumental to meet LF's greater purposes.
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Post by peter »

wayfriend wrote:If it's size in LFB is a bit inconsistent with it's size in TPTP, I don't really care.
Well now I really have heard everything! That must be the most UnWayfriendian posting ever - and from a man (I assume) whose attention to detail has been 'like an ever fixed star' to all at K's W for eons past! Do I hear the arch of time acrumbling?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by wayfriend »

I agree that Foul wanted the Lords to have the Staff. But not just for the "epicness". He wanted the Lords to have enough power so that they could do something rash and have it backfire on them. The more their power, the bigger the backfire. ("The bigger they are, the harder they fall.") The bigger the backfire, the more the despair. (He gave them "enough rope to hang themselves.")

Also to the epicness idea: his goal wasn't to destroy the Lords and the Warward and the people of the Land. His goal was to manipulate Covenant into despair, to hand over his ring. So the whole point of the war was to wrench Covenant's heart, and he tried to make it as heart-wrenching as he could.

But none of this, as far as I can tell, means that he could take the Illearth Stone away from Drool whever he wanted to.

What it does show is, if anything, he didn't need to. He didn't need to use the Illearth Stone, not that early anyway. And he knew it would end up in his hands no matter what happened when the Quest faced down Drool. Had the Lords aquired the Stone ... well, we saw what happened to Korik.
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote:I agree that Foul wanted the Lords to have the Staff. But not just for the "epicness". He wanted the Lords to have enough power so that they could do something rash and have it backfire on them. The more their power, the bigger the backfire. ("The bigger they are, the harder they fall.") The bigger the backfire, the more the despair. (He gave them "enough rope to hang themselves.")

Also to the epicness idea: his goal wasn't to destroy the Lords and the Warward and the people of the Land. His goal was to manipulate Covenant into despair, to hand over his ring. So the whole point of the war was to wrench Covenant's heart, and he tried to make it as heart-wrenching as he could.
Absolutely, that is what I had in mind - but you've expressed it much better than I did.
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Post by wayfriend »

Okay, I can't resist adding one more bit.

Foul was able to foresee that the Law of Death would be broken. "Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand." Which means he believed someone would drink the Earthblood. Which means someone would find Amok. Which means that they'd obtain the krill. Which means that they'd obtain the Second Ward. Which means that they'd be underneath Mt Thunder. Which means that they'd be trying to retrieve the Staff of Law.

So in that way, we can see that letting Drool have the Staff, and encouraging the Lords to get it back, led directly to the breaking of the Law of Death. Even more, the Lord's had to obtain the Staff the way that they did - by going into Mount Thunder after Drool.

If Lord Foul had just sent the Staff to Revelstone via UPS (Unbeliever Package Service) the whole plan would not have worked. No Second Ward, no krill, no Amok, no Earthblood, no broken Law.
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote:Foul was able to foresee that the Law of Death would be broken. "Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand." Which means he believed someone would drink the Earthblood. Which means someone would find Amok. Which means that they'd obtain the krill. Which means that they'd obtain the Second Ward. Which means that they'd be underneath Mt Thunder. Which means that they'd be trying to retrieve the Staff of Law.
I hesitate to wonder whether that is perhaps reading a little much foresight into a relatively ambiguous statement, which could easily just have been a threat as to his future power to decimate (or spare) the Land's peoples once he had recovered his full might...... 8O

But on that topic, what possessed Kevin to tuck away the second ward somewhere as physically inaccessible (and dangerous) as Mount Thunder. Bloody stupid if you ask me. Surely he should have made their accessibility dependent solely on the use of lore (rather than physical location). He turned finding them (or at least the second one) into a (very dangerous) treasure hunt.... (by contrast, for the uber-powerful seventh ward he provided a guide).

(I know that there were maps provided in the First Ward but still....! "Perhaps it is possible. He knew the old maps. No doubt they were given to us in the First Ward so that in time we might find our way here.")

And as a PS, do we think that SRD simply lost interest in the possibilities of the remaining three wards or is there a chance that they will reappear in the Last Chronicles? Generally it seems to me that he has erstwhile made relatively little use of the plot possibilities of the Wards suggesting that they don't interest him however....
Spoiler
...given that the Insequent are all about acquired knowledge and power might it prove possible that they have actually acquired a good deal of their knowledge from the Wards (though I guess they obtain their knowledge independently of each other which would militate against that reading)....
[/spoiler]
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