The Ending of Thomas Convenant

[simon1006]

I know the title of the series is "The Last Chronicles of Thomas Convenant," but is it really the end? And do you guys want it to be the end? I'm just wondering what kind of ending fans think it would be and what kind of ending fans would want it to be. We all know at the end of the first series when he states that Despite cannot be destroyed and the Creator saved his life that a sequel is very possible. So will Foul be finally destroyed permanently or will the ending leave an opening for further chronicles? And do you want the ending to be open or closed?

Personally, I like finality in things so I don't like open endings.

[danlo]

I've got a felling that this thread might be better off in the Last Chronicles forum--seems too spoiler tempting...

[Orlion]

Agreed... good topic, unideal location.

[Menolly]

I had written a welcome to simon1006, and added a suggestion that perhaps this thread be moved to The Last Chronicles forum in it. But then accidentally clicked on the 'X' in the tab, and was too frustrated at the time to rewrite it.

So first...

Be Welcome to the Watch, simon1006 (may we call you simon?).
Be Well Come and True.

Please come introduce yourself and tell us about how you discovered SRD in the Say Hello in Here thread up in The Summonsing.

Second...

In which sub-forum of The Last Chronicles forum would such a thread go? The topics under the list of sub-forums are locked. Could a more general sub-forum, not necessarily connected to any individual book in the series, but relating to all, be created there?

[rdhopeca]

Given the ending of the GAP cycle, I am not altogether convinced that this will be a "closed" ending. But hopefully I am wrong.

[AjK]

Welcome to KW, simon1006!

I know the title of the series is "The Last Chronicles of Thomas Convenant," but is it really the end? And do you guys want it to be the end?

Based on SRDs responses in the GI it sure sounds like this will be the final installment. However, I would of course read as many of these as he is willing to create.

So will Foul be finally destroyed permanently or will the ending leave an opening for further chronicles?

I don't believe it is possible for despite to be pemanently destroyed (although it has been "reduced" and may ultimately be "contained".)

And do you want the ending to be open or closed?

I don't view any ending as closed.

[Orlion]

I don't believe it is possible for despite to be pemanently destroyed (although it has been "reduced" and may ultimately be "contained".)

That's kinda how I feel. I think what will come will be a sort of 'final' defeat for Foul, in that we will be convinced that he's not ever going to be able to break the Arch, but I don't see him "dying" in any sense.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

What if Foul is a little mistaken about the Creator's reasons for imprisoning him in the Land? What if Foul didn't really exist before the world was made?

What if the Creator is a benevolent jailer and that Foul's prison is all that keeps him alive?

Since nothing ever quite is as it seems, this may apply even to Foul.

[wayfriend]

I think that this will indeed be the last Chronicles. Yes, despite cannot be destroyed. But I think Donaldson wants to show us what the final answer to despite is. So I think the Final Chronicles will exhibit that answer.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I think that this will indeed be the last Chronicles. Yes, despite cannot be destroyed. But I think Donaldson wants to show us what the final answer to despite is. So I think the Final Chronicles will exhibit that answer.

I was under the impression that the answer was to accept it as a necessary part of yourself, but not necessarily all that there is of you. It is you but it doesn't define you, that is.

Foul thinks it defines him. There may be aspects of him that he has not considered before.

edit: what if Foul is the Creator and is doing what he is doing to teach people how to love beauty, despite the fact that it may not last forever?

[wayfriend]

I think that this will indeed be the last Chronicles. Yes, despite cannot be destroyed. But I think Donaldson wants to show us what the final answer to despite is. So I think the Final Chronicles will exhibit that answer.

I was under the impression that the answer was to accept it as a necessary part of yourself, but not necessarily all that there is of you.

Yes. But we haven't really seen how Covenant does that yet. In this story, he has to accomplish this integration on several levels, not just the metaphoric level. And we certainly see no signs of Foul accepting such a result, and I consider that achievement equally important.

[Zahir]

Well, maybe the ultimate answer is for the Creator and Foul to realize they are two halves of the same truth--or maybe the twin sons of the same OTHER.

But my own hope is that maybe, just maybe, the Land and its world will enter into its final age--that it will have thousands of years of life remaining, but in those declining years it will be cured of Despite (for all intents and purposes).

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Yes. But we haven't really seen how Covenant does that yet. In this story, he has to accomplish this integration on several levels, not just the metaphoric level. And we certainly see no signs of Foul accepting such a result, and I consider that achievement equally important.

Is Foul capable of being taught anything? His personality--perhaps his nature--makes him unlikely to accept any viewpoint except his own.

[hamako]

I think Foul will be absorbed by TC into some form of alloy and he will meld back into the arch having been pulled away from it by Linden.

[wayfriend]

I think Foul will be absorbed by TC into some form of alloy and he will meld back into the arch having been pulled away from it by Linden.

Hmm... with that in mind, I'd suggest going back and re-reading the part in WGW where TC defeats foul by absorbing his energy, and apply this theory to what you read. You may be surprised.

[Vraith]

Interesting stuff.
I think the conclusion will have the end of the Land, probably the entire world it sits on...but:
Yes, there is a need to "accept" despite as part of yourself..TC has had to do it...I think the creator [assuming for the moment creator also isn't just a facet of TC] realized HE needs to accept it too...and has philosophically, but couldn't ACTUALLY in the past because Despite had to ALSO be somehow re-integrated, not simply turned loose by the Creator reaching and giving him a big hug [destroying the arch in the process]...this is TC's "job." Each time he has been there the end result is change for him...but also change for LF...before laws were broken, for example, LF couldn't really get near earthpower, it couldn't destroy him, but he couldn't touch it...but the ending of 1st Chron. allowed beginning of 2nd...certainly LF affected [corrupted] earthpower...but it also sustained him [you are what you eat]...also, the laws needed to be broken for the coming transition to happen "smoothly"..there is going to be death and violence and ending...but nothing like the explosion there would have been earlier [and done earlier, nothing BUT the explosion would have been accomplished]
There's a lot more I could say, but the point is that there is a kind of amalgamation coming...which brings us back to the 'acceptance'...yes, accept...but the acceptance is NOT victory or permanent in nature, nor stagnant...one must both accept and oppose an infinite number of times, at each instant you live...like the series, it's the same fight, but always a new arena, a different stage. So the Land ends, this story ends..but not the conflict, and not all stories, in an absolute sense.
I'm not sure how this will happen of course, or why keep reading?
In a very loose [and not at all creative] metaphorical way TC will be the 'part' of the creator that says no to certain things...parallel to how the moral among us in commited relationships say "God..s/he is hot and wants me...but...no."
I think there will be at least the possibility, if not the certainty, of a new world born from this one...but in it, only natural despite will exist..the supernatural despite will be back in the Creator's part of existence...where he belongs.

[wayfriend]

On acceptance:

Do you see The First Chronicles as being the external battle and The Second Chronicles as being the internal battle, with The Land being both internal and external?

• I see The Land as being the reflection of an internal struggle. I think that's what Fantasy is: turning an internal struggle inside out, and dramatizing it as if it were external. The two stories together are a kind of moral hierarchy: the first one is relatively simple concerned with muscle; the second is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles , and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land. I believe there is another test that which if I ever get to it I will try to explore: I guess superficially you might call it the test of acceptance, but it's a sequence: you can't get to the second stage unless you have done the first. That's how I look at it.

Unfortunately, there are so many things that "acceptance" might mean, so many degrees which "acceptance" can express.

In once wrote (and I lack the humility necessary to resist quoting myself): In the first Chronicles, [Covenant's] struggle was to learn to save the Land. In the second, his struggle was to learn to let go, and let another save the Land. In The Last Chronicles, his struggle will be to learn to let it all go.

Acceptance can mean accepting that the Land cannot be saved.

Acceptance can mean accepting defeat.

So here is nothing promising about knowing that the Final Chronicles is about acceptance. In and of itself, that can be either very good or very bad, very hopeful or very depressing: triumphant, or bitter.

[Orlion]

It may be interesting to note that TC never wants to preserve the Land, persay, but what the Land and it's beauty means to him (that's the impression I get at the end of the First Chronicles). The problem is that the Land is not necesarily what it meant to TC anymore. So, a decesion must be made: is what the Land has become meaningful enough to preserve? Any answer to this question means some sort of acceptance, either acceptance of what the Land has and will become or acceptance that its magic has been confined to the past. There's also the facet of acceptance with Linden: it may turn out that to save Jeremiah, she must accept the death of the Land, and vice-versa. It then becomes not a question of whether or not to accept things, but what is important enough to accept (and therefore, presumably, preserve).

As Wayfriend pointed out earlier, the possibilites really do become numerous to the point knowing that the Last Chronicles are about acceptance will not really enlighten us as to what, exactly, is going on.

[finn]

An idea kicked up by Hashi's post.......

What if Foul is an integral part of protecting the land from the Creator?

[DrPaul]

Given the centrality of the theme of "loving parents and erring/unfortunate children" to the Last Chronicles, I wouldn't be surprised to see some resolution of the relationship between the Creator and the Despiser which embodies this theme.