Elohim vs. Staff of Law/2nd Chronicles

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think it's that simple, because I think the Elohim saw more than one outcome that they considered "good", and therefore angled for.

Findail certainly thought the outcome where Covenant gave him the ring was a good one.

He also wanted Linden to have the ring, and I think the reason for that had a lot more to do with protecting the Earth from Covenant's wild-magic-powered venom than with healing the Sunbane.

Indeed, the text indicates that the Elohim believed letting TC keep the ring would lead to the worst possible outcome. They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

The Elohim could have wrested the ring from TC but such an action would have left a shadow upon their hearts which would have diminished the ring's capabilities for them.

Agree, except for last: with the ring they would be TOO powerful if/when the shadow corrupted them [the shadow was already there, not something that would be caused by the ring].

Yes, Findail mentioned a shadow upon the heart of the Elohim, although I read in another part of the text that the Elohim, like LF, have no heart, literally and figuratively speaking.

Findail recognized two possible hopes, that LA take the ring for herself after the Elohim silenced TC, and failing that, that TC should cede the ring over to the Elohim.

Findail said:

Or perhaps you might have ceded the ring to me, empowering the Elohim to save the Earth after their fashion. Then would we have had no need to fear ourselves, for a power given is altogether different than one wrested away. But whatever your choice, there would have
been hope. To accomplish such hope, the price of the ring-wielder's silence—and of my Appointment—appeared to be neither too great nor too ill.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

And that is the most critical of clues. Except I have no idea what it means.

The Elohim get the truth from the very Earth itself. So how could they be mistaken about the Sun-Sage? And what does it mean that they were?

My only idea so far is that this mistake represents a flaw, that the Elohim cannot comprehend some things. Whether those some things are mortals from Covenant's world, or the human element of the equation, or their own dark hearts, or something else, I don't know.

Certainly they did not understand that, had Linden been given the ring earlier than when she finally got it, it would have spelled the doom of the world. The power would have put her over the edge, and her inner darkness would have taken control.

Those things seem connected to me.

The Sight of the Elohim is not perfect, I don't see anything to indicate anything more. Daphin said,

"Perhaps our vision has been incomplete," said Daphin. Her voice lilted like birdsong. "Perhaps there is a merging to come. Or a death."

That's definitely a clue.

[wayfriend]

The Sight of the Elohim is not perfect, I don't see anything to indicate anything more. Daphin said,

"Perhaps our vision has been incomplete," said Daphin. Her voice lilted like birdsong. "Perhaps there is a merging to come. Or a death."

But Chant said, "Our vision does not lie. Rawedge Rim and Woodenwold do not lie. How may this be explained?"

It sounds like they had never encountered this imperfection before, and even considered it impossible. They are the heart of the Earth, and the Earth knows the truth, and cannot lie.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The Sight of the Elohim is not perfect, I don't see anything to indicate anything more. Daphin said,

"Perhaps our vision has been incomplete," said Daphin. Her voice lilted like birdsong. "Perhaps there is a merging to come. Or a death."

But Chant said, "Our vision does not lie. Rawedge Rim and Woodenwold do not lie. How may this be explained?"

It sounds like they had never encountered this imperfection before, and even considered it impossible. They are the heart of the Earth, and the Earth knows the truth, and cannot lie.

At least Chant is correct, his vision did not lie. The imperfection wasn't explained, I don't think.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The Sight of the Elohim is not perfect, I don't see anything to indicate anything more. Daphin said,

But Chant said, "Our vision does not lie. Rawedge Rim and Woodenwold do not lie. How may this be explained?"

It sounds like they had never encountered this imperfection before, and even considered it impossible. They are the heart of the Earth, and the Earth knows the truth, and cannot lie.

At least Chant is correct, his vision did not lie. The imperfection wasn't explained, I don't think.

I found more of the answer in this TC quote:

"Chant here tried to talk me into giving him my ring."
Linden gaped. Her encounter with Daphin had not prepared her for the possibility that her companions might be examined more roughly.
"He had a lot to say on the subject," Covenant went on. Behind his asperity, he was savage with distress. "These Elohim consider themselves the center of the Earth. According to him, everything important happens here. The rest of the world is like a shadow cast by Elemesnedene. Foul and the Sunbane are just symptoms. The real disease is something else-he didn't bother to say exactly what. Something about a darkness threatening the heart of the Earth. He wants my ring. He wants the wild magic. So he can attack the disease."

The shadow on the Elohim is the darkness (or disease) threatening the heart of the Earth. I think most of us know what that is by now.

TC sees it in terms of a disease with symptoms. I think the answer is more metaphysical than that analogy. Think in terms of Plato's metaphysics, his parable of the cave, and the shadows dancing on the wall of the cave. The cave would be the world of things such as LF and the Sunbane. The real world consists of the clachan of the Elohim.

If only the Elohim knew the truth: not even they are real, they are only a part of TC's dream. So that makes the Land a shadow of a shadow.

[peter]

Findail certainly thought the outcome where Covenant gave him the ring was a good one.

I can't agree Wayfriend. Wormoftheworldsend's third boxed quote in the posting above clearly demonstrates that Findail and the rest of the Elohim had no desire for the ring to be passed to them - they had considered this posibility and had disregarded it due to the '...arrogance of such power when a shadow plainly lay across our hearts.' And if the Elohim had no desire to see a new staff of law formed, then why did they require the sunsage and the ring weilder to be one and the same individual (since the only logical reason for this is so that the sunsage who has the 'eyes' to see how the healing of the earth must be done also has the power to achieve that healing.) Lastly we return to the point that if the Elohim did not want a new staff of law formed then how did they plan to deal with its absence in that it was an indispensible element in the healing of the Earth.

[peter]

And there is nothing in the text to indicate that the Elohim's purpose was to merge Sun Sage and Ringwielder.

At thier appearance in Elemesnedene the Elohim were clearly distressed that Sun Sage and Ring Weilder were not one individual, and Findails comments regarding Covenant surrendering his ring to Linden demonstrate that he approved of this course of action. Inrespect of the Elohim wanting the ring for thier own purposes, can I be lazy and refer you to the response I gave to wayfriend above where I demolish this argument once and forall in a withering display of logic and factual recall

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And there is nothing in the text to indicate that the Elohim's purpose was to merge Sun Sage and Ringwielder.

At thier appearance in Elemesnedene the Elohim were clearly distressed that Sun Sage and Ring Weilder were not one individual, and Findails comments regarding Covenant surrendering his ring to Linden demonstrate that he approved of this course of action. Inrespect of the Elohim wanting the ring for thier own purposes, can I be lazy and refer you to the response I gave to wayfriend above where I demolish this argument once and forall in a withering display of logic and factual recall

Of course they were distressed that their vision was wrong, they're Elohim.

But the intentions of the Elohim were clear almost from the very start:

Now he sounded rife with potential eruptions. "Chant here tried to talk me into giving him my ring."

[peter]

Now he sounded rife with potential eruptions. "Chant here tried to talk me into giving him my ring."

Good quote WOTWE! - but it still does not demonstrate that the Elohims purpose was to USE the ring themselves; Chant could just as easily have passed the ring to Linden as anything else. I still believe your earlier qoute demonstates abley that the Elohim had no intention of trying to use the ring themselves.
As to the distress they showed when Linden and TC turned out to be two sepparate individuals - I believe it was because they knew that a combined use of both power AND sight would be needed to heal the world and not just chagrin at their 'wurd' being wrong (which in the end of course it was not).

[wayfriend]

I can't figure out which quote you are referring to, peter. But if it's the one I think it is, is it possible that they are refering to taking the ring rather than having it given to them?

"Surely it is plain that for us the easiest path lay in the simple wresting from him of the ring. With wild magic could we bid any Despite defiance. Then for beings such as we are it would be no great task to achieve the perfection of the Earth. Yet that we did not do. Some among us feared the arrogance of such power, when a shadow plainly lay upon our hearts."

For later, Findail says,

"Thus the choice would have fallen to you in the end. His ring you might have taken unto yourself, thereby healing the breach between sight and power. Or perhaps you might have ceded the ring to me, empowering the Elohim to save the Earth after their fashion. Then would we have had no need to fear ourselves, for a power given is altogether different than one wrested away. But whatever your choice, there would have been hope.

So Findail is saying, one path to hope (in the eyes of Elohim) is that Linden takes the ring, and another is the ring being given to Findail.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Now he sounded rife with potential eruptions. "Chant here tried to talk me into giving him my ring."

Good quote WOTWE! - but it still does not demonstrate that the Elohims purpose was to USE the ring themselves; Chant could just as easily have passed the ring to Linden as anything else. I still believe your earlier qoute demonstates abley that the Elohim had no intention of trying to use the ring themselves.
As to the distress they showed when Linden and TC turned out to be two sepparate individuals - I believe it was because they knew that a combined use of both power AND sight would be needed to heal the world and not just chagrin at their 'wurd' being wrong (which in the end of course it was not).

Well you know, Peter, I can continue to do your homework for you and offer the Findail quote in which he stated that the Elohim will use the ring to create works of wonder. However, at this juncture, I would prefer that you re-read The One Tree, and perhaps also White Gold Wielder.

[peter]

Well you know, Peter, I can continue to do your homework for you and offer the Findail quote in which he stated that the Elohim will use the ring to create works of wonder. However, at this juncture, I would prefer that you re-read The One Tree, and perhaps also White Gold Wielder.

Probably a good idea Worm.

[spoonchicken]

Well.....at least I got a nomination for this thread.....*turns to hate and Despite for not winning a Watchie*....wields the wild spoon that destroys kitchens and tears down the Arch of Utensils in frustration...

[Krazy Kat]

I've just been reading The One Tree, with a few chapters remaining, and wanted to find a thread about Kastenessen and his Appointment.

I don't know why the Elohim were against the making of the Staff of Law, but what do you suppose Kastenessen was appointed to? I'm sure this is a big clue!

Findail tells the story saying that he had to cap a fire in the frozen lands of the north in order to prevent the destruction of the Earth. So maybe this was when Covenant destroyed Foul's Creche.

At the end of the Ridjeck Thome there was an almighty clash of fire and water. I think, unbeknown to us, Kastenessen witnessed Covenant's victory in the first chronicles.

How this ties into Kastenessen's love story, I don't know.
Maybe Linden Avery is really Joan...somehow! sorry, haven't thought this through properly

[Ur Dead]

Maybe Linden Avery is really Joan...somehow

That one can be clairified.

No.. Linden is not Joan.

Linden saw Joan when she first met Thomas.
TC was caring for Joan when Linden showed up.

The Wounded Land.

[Krazy Kat]

Maybe Linden Avery is really Joan...somehow

That one can be clairified.

No.. Linden is not Joan.

Linden saw Joan when she first met Thomas.
TC was caring for Joan when Linden showed up.

The Wounded Land.

In a dreamscape almost anything is possible

I haven't read the Wounded Land for at least 10 years, but as I was reading towards the end of the One Tree I kept thinking back to how the Wounded Land ended.

I was thinking about the story of Joan of Arc. I feel so sure SRD was aware of this and the way these images overlapped - Joan burnt at the stake for her beliefs and Covenant changing the bonefire into a caamora for the Giants of the Grieve.

And then there is Linden's story about the suicide of her father. When Covenant is in the boat with Foamfollower travelling to Revelstone, he tells a story about 'culture shock'. Both of these stories appear to echo each other.

I could write more, but all this will get further and further away from the topic thread.

I'm fairly certain I haven't 'went absolutely insane' so any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

[Darkdenubis]

The more I reread TOT, the more I dislike the Elohim. The lie, they are arrogant, they brag about their powers and then do nothing. Sort of like Greek Gods, now that I think of it.

I am surprised no one asked them to correct the Sunbane though, that was definately within their wurd, being a problem with Earthpower. But they would have said no, I expect. Stuck up cowards, every one of them. Except Daphin, she was rather nice. And hot too, no doubt. In a young Goldie Hawn sort of way.

[Vraith]

The more I reread TOT, the more I dislike the Elohim. The lie, they are arrogant, they brag about their powers and then do nothing. Sort of like Greek Gods, now that I think of it.

I am surprised no one asked them to correct the Sunbane though, that was definately within their wurd, being a problem with Earthpower. But they would have said no, I expect. Stuck up cowards, every one of them. Except Daphin, she was rather nice. And hot too, no doubt. In a young Goldie Hawn sort of way.

IIRC, they said flat out they wouldn't give a damn about the Sunbane, except that it would affect themselves if it kept going, and that is their entire reason for their interests concerning the staff itself [though they obviously had other interests related to TC and white gold/wild magic].
They ARE real asses, no doubt. That's why I can't decide whether, in the end, I want them to learn a lesson and become "better" after...or if I want them to learn a lesson just before they DIE because they screwed it up.

[Barnetto]

They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

And that is the most critical of clues. Except I have no idea what it means.

The Elohim get the truth from the very Earth itself. So how could they be mistaken about the Sun-Sage? And what does it mean that they were?

Is it too simple to suggest that they weren't actually wrong, since, at the end, Linden did indeed have the ring so the Sun Sage and Ringwielder were one. They just made the faulty assumption that their vision required it would be that way at an earlier point in time?

[wayfriend]

Is it too simple to suggest that they weren't actually wrong, since, at the end, Linden did indeed have the ring so the Sun Sage and Ringwielder were one. They just made the faulty assumption that their vision required it would be that way at an earlier point in time?

Yes, but why insert that particularly critical faulty assumption into the story?

I feel it is there to make a statement about the Elohim. Perhaps the statement is that, when it comes to beings from outside of the Earth, they don't understand everything, and can make errors.