THOOLAH?

[peter]

Another specific instance is when Covenant is catatonic and Linden finally, after waiting for several chapters in the book, went into him and broke the hold that was placed on him by the Elohim to bring him back. Or when he needed healing and she waited to do that. Linden has taken her time healing several characters or taking action throughout the book continually. So like the previous posts I can only call her action inaction.

But WWWCM, this is a woman whose actions and interventions to date have been to kill her own parents - can we be suprised that she distrusts herself to act, let alone to actively posess! She believes herself to be inherantly EVIL - her pursuit of medicine ia an attempt to expiate those previous interventions, is grounded in self hatred and doubt - it is not some halo shrouded act of philanthropy. In this light can we wonder that she is indecisive - and in those circumstances! - Think of it!

[wayfriend]

[As moderator, I spoilerized some material in this thread that describes what happens in the Final Chronicles.]

As a proud member of Linden's Army (buy the LA item and display it!), I'll point out that there's nothing Linden does in the Second Chronicles, whether it be "whining" or "inaction" or anything else, that Covenant didn't do in the First Chronicles, and more of, and worse stuff, too.

If anyone can like Covenant but dislike Linden, it's not for the reasons stated. There's another factor at work, and I have my theories about it.

[High Lord Tolkien]

As a proud member of Linden's Army (buy the LA item and display it!), I'll point out that there's nothing Linden does in the Second Chronicles, whether it be "whining" or "inaction" or anything else, that Covenant didn't do in the First Chronicles, and more of, and worse stuff, too.

If anyone can like Covenant but dislike Linden, it's not for the reasons stated. There's another factor at work, and I have my theories about it.

Yeah yeah yeah.....we hate women or something?

TC didn't know what he was doing in the 1st Chronicles but he had an idea at the end and went for it.
I think we all love Elena.
Why?
She's crazy but she was decisive.
We all love the First because she was kind and kickass at the same time.

THOOLAH loves women, make no mistake.

But Linden?
A whiny tag-along!
Good Lord I think she was crying up to the last page.
(and she only gets worse in the 3rd)

[wayfriend]

If anyone can like Covenant but dislike Linden, it's not for the reasons stated. There's another factor at work, and I have my theories about it.

Yeah yeah yeah.....we hate women or something?

Uh ... no.

But maybe people have more respect for someone whose issues coping with the world derive from something tangible, like having a disease, than someone whose issues derive from something which is "psychological trauma". That the latter don't justify indecisiveness, and sticking to internal principles which make your actions appear wrong to others, while the former does. We respect the hard place that Covenant came from, but not the hard place Linden did.

For example, Linden's reticense in healing Covenant from his silence is every bit as grounded in principle and as horrific for the enactor as Covenant's reticense in giving Seadreamer his caamora. And every bit as wrong in the end.

[Wheelwash Whitecap Mate]

As a woman, let me state that I do not hate women or men anymore then the other. I believe that anyones inaction when it comes to a hurt soul is unacceptable.

I have discussed the issue of inaction and whining with WWWC (my husband), and we have discerned that it is not Linden's whining and inaction that is necessarily the problem. We went through the hesitation and undecisiveness with Covenant at the beginning of the books, waiting for him to act, and when he finally did we loved it. To go back to a main character having the same issues is disappointing to say the least.

In my personal opinion when Linden began acting like a strong independent woman she should have kept being that. The reader wants the hero to save the day. That is what we, as readers, have come to expect. Keeping a reader on their toes is acceptable, but it just seems like a set back in the book to me personally.

Again just stating my personal opinion here and do not want to upset anyone, but it is what it is...

WWWCM

[peter]

Again just stating my personal opinion here and do not want to upset anyone, but it is what it is...

Never a problem here WWWCM, from those who have the ears to hear (and keep it all in perspective) Respect to you.

[Fist and Faith]

I've posted a lot about this in the AATE thread, starting here:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=751095#751095
Final Chrons spoilers, of course.

[peter]

I've posted a lot about this in the AATE thread, starting here:

Thats a bit bizarre F&F, when you try to go to that 'adress' all you get is the green page telling you 'This thread or page does not exist'. All very conspiratorial if you ask me; in fact I'm starting to feel a bit insubstantial myself!

[kevinswatch]

THOOLAH! THOOLAH! THOOLAH!

It's great that we've been able to carry the hate from the Second Chronicles right into the Last Chronicles without missing a beat.

-jay

[aTOMiC]

I don't think being a card carrying member of THOOLAH makes me a bad guy and I certainly don't hate women but there's just something rather potent about the way Linden in portrayed that really seems to get under my skin.

I've made my feelings known in other THOOLAH themed discussions so I won't go on about it here.

All I can say is that there is some truth to the notion that I do in part dislike Linden because she is in many ways replaces TC as the central figure. It's probably true in many cases when a character or person one has grown fond of is replaced by another. Why can't I like Van Halen with Sammy Hagar? Is the music harmed in some way? Not really. However my first exposure to VH was with DLR's vocals and personality and I liked it that way. I still can't listen to newer VH to this day.
The same must in some part be true with Linden, however in addition to the reason I just mentioned there are a host of others that really solidify my distaste for the character and my membership in the holy order of THOOLAH!!!!!!

[Wheelwash Whitecap]

Basically, at this time of the story, it does not matter who the main character is. I like them all. The characters all play a part in making it a great read. Good ones, bad ones, mediocre ones....you need them all.

SRD has really done an excellent job at making this story one of the greatest. Look at how his writings have influenced people to think and share their thoughts on so many different areas of the human condition.

I can't hardly wait till the next installment of it.

Thanks

WWWC

PS...I just love the Thoolah Blog....It cracks me up everytime I read it. Thanks Jay.

[Vraith]

I think I went on about this at length somewhere a year or so ago...if I didn't, I meant too, but exceedingly briefly:
I "like" Linden because every bit of her is well-crafted, and every action [or inaction] makes sense in terms of her background and experiences.

[High Lord Tolkien]

PS...I just love the Thoolah Blog....It cracks me up everytime I read it. Thanks Jay.

God-damn-it!!!
WTF?

[Wheelwash Whitecap]

High Lord Tolkien,

Please accept my apologies for giving Jay credit for the Thoolah Blog. I know that you should receive the credit. I honestly do not have any excuse for miswording my statement. I find that the Thoolah Declaration (Jay) and the Thoolah Blog (HLT) both crack me up.

Thanks

WWWC

[Jasprer]

For me the reason was simple. I just prefer the TC first person and not the Linden. I remember when I wa reading the second chronicles the very first time I kept wondering when I would be returing to TC point of view. I guess I liked his personal strife (internal thoughts and comments) more than Linden's. She seemed to nag alot. Linden got annoying in her point of view. TC just pissed me off. I guess that is why I liked this series so much. I actually have some emotion when i read it like "duh stut up linden geesh!" or "dammit TC use your ring!". I think many you know what i mean. For what its worth.

[Orlion]

"dammit TC use your ring!". I think many you know what i mean. For what its worth.

Yep, that just about sums up the first time I read the first chronicles...

[High Lord Tolkien]

"dammit TC use your ring!". I think many you know what i mean. For what its worth.

Yep, that just about sums up the first time I read the first chronicles...

The great thing about that is that we had no idea what WM could actually do or how it would manifest itself.
We got little bits and pieces:
A lightning bolt to turn a storm...kinda vague.
A few more bursts of energy that transcended Lords fire...well big whoop what the heck does that mean. TC was destined to be a real powerful Lord?
Awakening the Kill....we had no idea what that meant and still it was just a blast of light.
Troy's hand was wrapped in white fire....but that was it. What could he have done? My mind was racing as I was reading. toss bolts of fire? make Elena appear before him or could Troy will himself to her. I was on the edge of my seat reading.
THEN TC touches the Stone.....
It was awesome.

[Kaydene]

I can't believe I'm only just finding this thread. Sadness.

I am, obviously, a THOOLAH devotee. She's half the character TC is, lacks the depth, and the moral conflict. She doesn't grow. She's a stagnant personality whereas TC is a gripping personality.

[peter]

Mmmm........ Am I getting the sense that there is a lot of represed animosity toward Linden out there.

[BellTelephoneCompany]

For me the reason was simple. I just prefer the TC first person and not the Linden. I remember when I wa reading the second chronicles the very first time I kept wondering when I would be returing to TC point of view. I guess I liked his personal strife (internal thoughts and comments) more than Linden's. She seemed to nag alot. Linden got annoying in her point of view. TC just pissed me off. I guess that is why I liked this series so much. I actually have some emotion when i read it like "duh stut up linden geesh!" or "dammit TC use your ring!". I think many you know what i mean. For what its worth.

That's a good point about Covenant's POV. He can often be quite funny in his internal dialogues, even if it's just the "Bloody Hell! Hellfire! Damnation!" expostulations. Some of his observations are almost light-hearted, or at least sarcastic, or brutally honest, in the midst of all the horror and strife.

Linden... not so much.

The curmudegeonly and tormented middle-aged man is also a comedy-drama archetype - like Dr. House in, uh, House - and we all love to hear the stinging put-downs of the hopeless optimism of others, and the way they both rebel against the absurdity of fate with sarcasm and wit.

I'm equating Covenant with House because of the idea of Hugh laurie as Covenant in any films that might come out, btw.

There is no equivalent archetypal character for women, except The Bitch, who is seen as being a lot less loveable, even if equally funny.

Imagine if House was a woman, the way he tears into people at times, and the way he tears into himself.... it's just not as funny, for some reason.

Still, I like Linden a lot. She's all dark, all the time, but I don't mind.