Doesn't Lord Foul REALLY Have a Heart?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Doesn't Lord Foul REALLY Have a Heart?

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

In chapter 1 of AATE we find that the Despiser also despairs, only he doesn't feel it, so he projects this despair onto others.
Covenant remembered the sources of the Despiser’s frustration, the roots of his accumulating, minatory fury. He recognized the Despiser’s own secret despair, concealed even from himself, and enacted on the beings around him instead.
Is it the case that despair, even a secret one, requires a heart? Or does despair only require a heart to feel it? If the Despiser doesn't have a heart then obviously he can't feel despair, assuming he can have it in secret concealed even from himself.

If the Despiser has a secret despair, does he also have a secret heart concealed even from himself? Is this why he told Linden in ROTE that he doesn't have a heart - he has one but he himself doesn't even know about its existence?

It is possible, in human psychology anyway, to have an emotion and not know it or feel it - this is called repression - and then unknowingly to project that emotion onto others. In Foul's case, the emotion of despair is projected onto others, by causing them to experience it for him, and then rationalized as a ploy to eventually escape from his emprisonment.

I call it a rationalization because other ploys might work just as well, but something in the Despiser's psychology leads him to this particular ploy and so, as a form of self-concealment, he has to justify it somehow.

It may be the case that psychology does not require the concept of a "heart," but it does require the concept of an emotional center loosely known as the heart.

If the Despiser has a form of despair within him, then why does he choose to conceal its existence even from himself?
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Post by Vraith »

Hmmm...this is worthing thinking on and exploring.
I have 2 initial thoughts that make this possible, theoretically:
1) The despair must be hidden because it is attached to guilt that other parts of him cannot admit: he knows, for example, that his first desecration of the world, before trapped there, was wrong [he really DID do it because he knows creator is superior to him and he was envious, he really DID deserve punishment]
2) He knows, and must hide from himself, that even if freed from his trap, and even if he is purely 'evil,' and separate from the creator, only 2 ends are possible: an endless battle against that which opposes despair, or a time without end contemplating the nothingness that will result from his "victory."
[I have another thought, but it's tangential, probably long, and nebulous atm]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Vraith wrote:Hmmm...this is worthing thinking on and exploring.
I have 2 initial thoughts that make this possible, theoretically:
1) The despair must be hidden because it is attached to guilt that other parts of him cannot admit: he knows, for example, that his first desecration of the world, before trapped there, was wrong [he really DID do it because he knows creator is superior to him and he was envious, he really DID deserve punishment]
Assuming that Creator story is true and not a myth.
2) He knows, and must hide from himself, that even if freed from his trap, and even if he is purely 'evil,' and separate from the creator, only 2 ends are possible: an endless battle against that which opposes despair, or a time without end contemplating the nothingness that will result from his "victory."
[I have another thought, but it's tangential, probably long, and nebulous atm]
So does the Despiser have a heart?
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Post by Vraith »

Short answer: I think so.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Vraith »

Short answer: I think so.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Vraith wrote:Short answer: I think so.
But how would Mr. Donaldson answer this question?

I think he would say that I misconstrue his point in that paragraph very badly, and say that evil can have no heart. I think he would say his idea of a "heart" is something beneficial - it is the seat of kindness and compassion - not a source of evil.

Yet he stated through TC that Lord Foul has despair. Despair is not evil. Projection is not evil. Rationalization is not evil. They are symptoms of other psychological issues.

If the Despiser is just the product of his psychology, can it be that he is evil "all the way down"? Or does he just act evil because he has issues?
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Post by Orlion »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:Short answer: I think so.
But how would Mr. Donaldson answer this question?

I think he would say that I misconstrue his point in that paragraph very badly, and say that evil can have no heart. I think he would say his idea of a "heart" is something beneficial - it is the seat of kindness and compassion - not a source of evil.

Yet he stated through TC that Lord Foul has despair. Despair is not evil. Projection is not evil. Rationalization is not evil. They are symptoms of other psychological issues.

If the Despiser is just the product of his psychology, can it be that he is evil "all the way down"? Or does he just act evil because he has issues?
I view Foul as an embodiment of Despair, not evil.... and that helps with that problem :P
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Orlion wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:Short answer: I think so.
But how would Mr. Donaldson answer this question?

I think he would say that I misconstrue his point in that paragraph very badly, and say that evil can have no heart. I think he would say his idea of a "heart" is something beneficial - it is the seat of kindness and compassion - not a source of evil.

Yet he stated through TC that Lord Foul has despair. Despair is not evil. Projection is not evil. Rationalization is not evil. They are symptoms of other psychological issues.

If the Despiser is just the product of his psychology, can it be that he is evil "all the way down"? Or does he just act evil because he has issues?
I view Foul as an embodiment of Despair, not evil.... and that helps with that problem :P
Foul doesn't see himself that way, he sees himself as an embodiment of evil. Donaldson created him to be an embodiment of evil. Yet LF despairs, secretly, without knowing it. So is he evil all the way down, deep in his heart? Does he even have a heart?
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Post by Orlion »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Orlion wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: But how would Mr. Donaldson answer this question?

I think he would say that I misconstrue his point in that paragraph very badly, and say that evil can have no heart. I think he would say his idea of a "heart" is something beneficial - it is the seat of kindness and compassion - not a source of evil.

Yet he stated through TC that Lord Foul has despair. Despair is not evil. Projection is not evil. Rationalization is not evil. They are symptoms of other psychological issues.

If the Despiser is just the product of his psychology, can it be that he is evil "all the way down"? Or does he just act evil because he has issues?
I view Foul as an embodiment of Despair, not evil.... and that helps with that problem :P
Foul doesn't see himself that way, he sees himself as an embodiment of evil. Donaldson created him to be an embodiment of evil. Yet LF despairs, secretly, without knowing it. So is he evil all the way down, deep in his heart? Does he even have a heart?
I'd say he has passion, and that is where his despair lies... kinda like the shadow on the Elohim's hearts.

I'm not sure he vies himself as "evil", and I'm not certain that that is how Donaldson wants us to view him... at least, not completely...
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Orlion wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Orlion wrote: I view Foul as an embodiment of Despair, not evil.... and that helps with that problem :P
Foul doesn't see himself that way, he sees himself as an embodiment of evil. Donaldson created him to be an embodiment of evil. Yet LF despairs, secretly, without knowing it. So is he evil all the way down, deep in his heart? Does he even have a heart?
I'd say he has passion, and that is where his despair lies... kinda like the shadow on the Elohim's hearts.

I'm not sure he vies himself as "evil", and I'm not certain that that is how Donaldson wants us to view him... at least, not completely...
I don't know if this helps, but Donaldson states in the GI that Foul is not an archetypal evil. That is defined as an evil for its own sake, for no other motive. But Foul has his motives.

If Foul has external motives - to escape from the Earth - then maybe he also has internal motives - to escape from himself. He's not an evil being, only a being acting out with evil intent.
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Post by Orlion »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I don't know if this helps, but Donaldson states in the GI that Foul is not an archetypal evil. That is defined as an evil for its own sake, for no other motive. But Foul has his motives.

If Foul has external motives - to escape from the Earth - then maybe he also has internal motives - to escape from himself. He's not an evil being, only a being acting out with evil intent.
It does, and I found this on the GI:
From my perspective, the "evil" in the GAP books--and "Mordant's Need"--is pretty much the same as the "evil" in "Covenant": it's all just Despite in one form or another.

(06/08/2004)
The full quote explicitly mentions a combat between Good & Evil in his books, so ultimately, Foul is an arch-typical being of despite, and despite happens to be evil in the Donaldsonian mythos.

Back on topic, your idea about an internal motive is interesting, and probably hits close to or on the mark. I think for all of his outward confidence, he's not sure how all of this will turn out...
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

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Post by SGuilfoyle1966 »

Not only does he have a heart, he has a tremendous singing voice, and loves puppies and long walks on the beach with that special someone.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Orlion wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I don't know if this helps, but Donaldson states in the GI that Foul is not an archetypal evil. That is defined as an evil for its own sake, for no other motive. But Foul has his motives.

If Foul has external motives - to escape from the Earth - then maybe he also has internal motives - to escape from himself. He's not an evil being, only a being acting out with evil intent.
It does, and I found this on the GI:
From my perspective, the "evil" in the GAP books--and "Mordant's Need"--is pretty much the same as the "evil" in "Covenant": it's all just Despite in one form or another.

(06/08/2004)
The full quote explicitly mentions a combat between Good & Evil in his books, so ultimately, Foul is an arch-typical being of despite, and despite happens to be evil in the Donaldsonian mythos.
Yes, but almost exactly 4 years later Donaldson wrote in the GI
In any case, from the beginning of LFB it was always my intention that LF had reasons for what he was doing. If that disqualifies him as "archetypal evil," so be it.
Orlion wrote:Back on topic, your idea about an internal motive is interesting, and probably hits close to or on the mark. I think for all of his outward confidence, he's not sure how all of this will turn out...
That's another topic. LF is confident in himself - and the Creator obviously believes in his confidence, so much so in fact that He has given up all hope for the salvation of his Creation.

My hope is that Foul is extremely confident in himself - so much the better when he is thwarted one last time!
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:Not only does he have a heart, he has a tremendous singing voice, and loves puppies and long walks on the beach with that special someone.
That points to what I'm trying to find out. Is this "heart" something emotional? or does it have something more to do with the soul?
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Post by Vader »

You don't need a heart for despair - only glands, hormones and a brain.
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Post by Vraith »

I really do think the internal matters, and I think there is a heart [or soul].
I think it is intentionally and deeply significant that is is not enough, for LF, to
simply kill/destroy, but that despair/despite in his enemies is so integral to his strategies.
It's pretty common for people to both try to bury and impose on others their own flaws or self-hatred, or whatever. I don't think SRD's intentions for LF are quite as simple/straightforward as that, but it's part of it.
Another thought: If, as has been suggested, TC and LF are "one," in some sense, why couldn't [why wouldn't]] it be a 2 way relationship; if LF is TC's despite, TC could be LF's heart.
I actually think it's 3 way, though; TC AND Creator AND LF, no matter which, if any, are really real and which are not.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by DrPaul »

Perhaps Lord Foul is no more than a bad linguistic habit.

www.solstice.us/russell/metaphysician.html
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Post by Vraith »

That cracked me up, DrP.
I wonder why I never ran across that before...
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

DrPaul wrote:Perhaps Lord Foul is no more than a bad linguistic habit.

www.solstice.us/russell/metaphysician.html
Or in this case, a bad dream.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Vraith wrote:That cracked me up, DrP.
I wonder why I never ran across that before...
I remember you better now from my last time here, you scored 5w4 on an Enneagram test? (Same score as yours truly.)
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