THE SPARROW

[Dragonlily]

Taraswizard asked me to start a thread on this book that we are both so impressed with: THE SPARROW by Mary Doria Russell. One of his paragraphs to me makes a great jumping off point.

I've read in various places that Ms Russell can not write convincing SF because her background is not "hard" science(and I know she has a Ph.D in Anthropology) and The sparrow is really a book of 'soft' SF. This makes me see the truth of a quote of Pat Murphy's "if a women wrote a SF book based on atomic physics, some critics would call it 'soft' SF".

To which I would add:
...if your idea of softness is being hit by an avalanche.

Gather your courage, all ye who enter THE SPARROW. It is one of the most emotionally wrenching books I have ever read. How did the hero get from this condition, eager, shining, and lovable, to the condition in which we see him in the very next chapter? Russell has woven together three time lines so tightly yet so mysteriously that the suspense builds to be almost unbearable. A group of idealists went aboard a spaceship to visit another world; one broken man came home, accusing himself of something that surely can't be true. Or, what kind of alien planet and society could change someone so much that it might be true?

Especially psychology, but also philosophy, ethics, anthropology, biology, linguistics, are all strongly written. This debut is written with the grip of a master. THE SPARROW is a novel to separate the men from the boys, even though it is written by a woman.

[taraswizard]

All the stuff that Joy said, and it's a 'ripping good yarn'. FWIW, this is a debut book by Mary Doria Russell.

Some additional items. IMO, this book has some similarities to The mote in God's eye by L. Niven and J. Pournelle. Wonder if Ms. Russell had any famaliarity with that book? Furthermore, this is a much better book than the Niven and Pournelle one.

This book won the Tiptree award www.tiptree.org in 1997. The Tiptree is awarded to SF that is gender bending. Past winners have included Ammonite by Griffith, Light by Harrison, Conqueror's Child by Charnas. Does this work strike anyone with its particular gender bending characteristics?

AFAIK, this book is not promoted as a SFnal work, does that make sense to anyone? My local public library's copy, the copy I read, puts special sticker on the spine of SF books, The sparrow does not have the sticker. I've read one or two on-line reviews that say this book surpasses SF in its 'literary quality'. Comments.

(second message to follow)

[taraswizard]

Continued from last message. Made seperate because this might be considered spoilery. If you do not care if you're spoiled proceed
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Are the Jana'ata, one of the two sentient and intelligent species on Rakhat, really civilized? They are cultured, highly intelligent and possess a culture but are they civilized?

Are Sofia Mendes, and Emilio Sandoz, the two main characters, the heros of the book? Are there no heros to this story?

The copy of the book I read had three pages of discussion questions, IMO most were intellectual 'soft balls'. One that wasn't, does one think there are any parallels between the humans meeting with the VaRahkati and Europeans meetings with new cultures in the 16th - 19th century?

[Dragonlily]

Continued spoiler:

Spoiler

If the Jana'ata civilized themselves in the sense we would consider so, they would die.

Taras, have you read the sequel, CHILDREN OF GOD? It studies that point.

As to parallels between SPARROW and European exploration, there is the obvious religious one. Aside from that, there is the vast sense of alienness that one would expect in any such circumstances, but that is simply part of exploration in general.

The question you ask about Sofia and Emilio requires a definition of hero, otherwise we will all be talking about different things.

[taraswizard]

One of the reasons I raised the question about if the Jana'ata are civilized is cause in the POV of Niven and Pournelle the Moties are not civilized. The Moties possess high intelligence and the they have a culture, but are not civilized. FWIW, some of the plot of the book is driven by the Motie culture trying to hide its lack of civilization and the continued futile quest by the humans (in TMiGE the human first contact party is a highly organized governmental party) to deal with them as if they are.

[taraswizard]

The Jana'ata regardless of their intelligence and cultured status are not really civilized beings. this makes them truly aliens and foreign to our experience. Interestingly, the VaRakhati make no effort to hide their nature from these strange visitors, perhaps since they have no concept of space travel. In TMiGE, the Moties are knowlegeable of space travel prior to their contact with humans.

[Dragonlily]

lol. Reminds me of a quote from SHOGUN: "We think of ourselves as quite civilized, Anjin-san."

[Dragonlily]

Mary Doria Russell has another book out. This one is a historical novel. Here's the inside flap blurb:

It is September 8, 1943, and fourteen-year-old Claudette Blum is learning Italian with a suitcase in her hand. She and her father are among the thousands of Jewish refugees scrambling over the Alps toward Italy, where they hope to find safety now that the Italians have broken with Germany and made a separate peace with the Allies. The Blums will soon discover that Italy is anything but peaceful, as seemingly overnight it becomes an open battleground for the Nazis, the Allies, resistance fighters, Jews in hiding, and Italian civilians trying to survive.

Mary Doria Russell sets her first historical novel against this dramatic background, tracing the lives of a handful of fascinating characters -- a charismatic Italian resistance leader, a priest, an Italian rabbi's family, a disillusioned German doctor. Through them, she tells the little-known but true story of the vast underground effort of the Italian citizens who saved the lives of 43,000 Jews during the final phase of the war.

The result of five years of meticulous research, A Thread Of Grace is an ambitious, engrossing novel of ideas and history. Sure to gratify the many readers of The Sparrow and Children Of God, Russell's third novel will introduce to an even larger audience the authentic drama of a nearly forgotten aspect of World War II's Italian front.

And the back cover quotes:

"Mary Doria Russell's fans (and aren't we all?) will rejoice to see her new novel on the shelves. A Thread Of Grace is as ambitious, beautiful, tense, and transforming as any of us could have hoped."
Karen Joy Fowler, author of THE JANE AUSTEN BOOK CLUB

"Fans of Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow and Children Of God will be thrilled by her masterly new novel. A Thread Of Grace is a rich, multilayered narrative that offers fresh insight into a devastating time in world affairs. A story of love and war, it speaks to the resilience and beauty of the human spirit in the midst of unimaginable horror. It is, unquestionably, a literary triumph."
David Morrell, author of THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE ROSE and FIRST BLOOD

"You will lose yourself completely in this ecumenical epic of Italians working together to save Jewish refugees during the German Occupation of 1943-44. Russell has a deep empathy for her characters and writes with genius about the horrors of guerilla war. This wholly absorbing novel ends with perhaps the most moving coda in fictional history."
Susan Cahill, author/editor of DESIRING ITALY and THE SMILES OF ROME

None of this high praise surprises me. This is truly a landmark author.

[taraswizard]

Wishing I owned a copy of thiis book. But regardless. I do not think this requires spoiler space (unless one does not already know several of the characters from this book are Jesuit priests).

What is the consequence that a man of profound and deep faith (including a belief in a Universal God), discovers a culture that seemingly has no religion, or at least no God? OK,( this is where I wished i owned a copy of the book), Father Sandoz and Sophia Mendes are linguists, and when one reads in the narrative of their linguistic work with the Rakhti languages, I do not remember them having to translate a word for God or religion? And peculiarly the linguist priest did find this or in any way odd or unusual? Really hoping more people will join this discussion.

But Joy, not sure where you're trying to lead the discussion about Pilot Blackthorn from Clavell's Shogun. Are you saying that my comments are as ethnocentric as that character's. To comment concerning Blackthorn briefly, his naivette is a little hard to believe, since his home culture was 16th Century England and Europe a place to which barbaric cruelties were not uncommon, and yet he's so shocked by Feudal Japan.

[taraswizard]

Bump for Duchess

[duchess of malfi]

I do not believe that the Jesuit party learns of any religions...but there is a scene where one of the Jana'Ata ruminates about the legends/myths of the origins of his people. I'm pretty sure that in the legend, his people are "created" (the being who created them is named) and live on an island with their prey, and how they had to learn how to balance their population with that of their prey before they are allowed to leave the island and live on the mainlands...

So it is quite possible that the Jana'Ata do have some sort of religious mythos, though it is unclear if they actually practice a religion.

This is obviously based on the first book, as I have not read the sequel.

Devastatingly good book, by the way.

I feel blessed. The last three sf&f books I have read were all first class reads and quite wonderful.
Russell's The Sparrow
Clarke's Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell
Kostova's The Historian

[Dragonlily]

Devastatingly good book, by the way.

Duchess, I'm glad to see another person with the same reaction.

Taras said he wouldn't be able to review SPARROW, and I have the same reaction -- though I have decided to play around with my opening post and see if it can be useful as a semi-review, when attached to our Favorites list for that year.

Taras, I was saying that every civilization has a different definition of civilization.

I wonder what we would do if pigs and string bean vines began to register on our scale of sentience.

[Fist and Faith]

It looks like some posts here discuss Children of God, which I haven't read yet. So I'll post my thoughts on The Sparrow at the Hangar.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I'm done with Children of God.





*whew*





This lady can sure write some books, eh? Draining stuff!! She obviously meant the two as one big book, which she says in the interview at the end.


***SPOILERS***


Two things surprised me as much as anything in a book has ever surprised me:
-Sophia is alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! And boy doesn't she break the Prime Directive!!! LOL! Even little things about her are so good to read, like when she looks into a reflective surface after some months, and is startled to see that she, herself, isn't a Runa. After months of seeing nothing else, she forgot!

-And Emilio being kidnapped. I'm pretty sure I've never been more angry at a fictional character than I am at the two Giulianis and Danny. I'd gladly beat them to within an inch of their lives. Carlo even considered killing his ex-wife and child, so Emilio would have less reason to want to return home!! There are no words...

And then there's things like this, right from the beginning:

The man saw her as she stepped into the room, and he wiped his face on his sleeves. "What's the matter?" she asked, coming closer. "Why are you crying?"

Don Vincenzo started to say something, but the man shook his head and said, "It's nothing, cara. Only: I was remembering something - something bad that happened to me."

"What happened?"

"Some...men hurt me. It was a long time ago," he assured her as her eyes grew round, afraid the bad men were still in the house. "It was when you were very small, but sometimes I remember it."

"Did anyone kiss you?"

"Mi scuzi?" He blinked when she said it, and Don Vincenzo stood very straight for a moment.

"To make it better?" she said.

The man with the machines smiled with very soft eyes. "No, cara. No one kissed it better."

"I could."

"That would be very nice," he said in a nervous voice. "I think I could use a kiss."

She leaned forward and kissed his cheek. Her cousin Roberto, who was nine, said kissing was stupid, but Celestina knew better. "This is a new dress," she told the man. "I got chocolate on it."

"It's still very pretty. So are you."

"Cece had babies. Want to see them?"

The man looked up at Don Vincenzo, who explained, "Cece is a guinea pig. Having babies is what guinea pigs do."

"Ah. Si, cara. I'd like that."

He stood, and she went to take his hand so she could bring him outside, but remembered about the machines. "What happened to your hands?" she asked, pulling him along by the sleeve.

"It was a sort of accident, cara. Don't worry. It can't happen to you."

"Does it hurt?" Vincenzo Giuliani heard the child ask, as she lead Emilio Sandoz down the hall toward a door to the backyard.

"Sometimes," Sandoz said simply. "Not today."

Their voices were lost to him after he heard the back door bang shut. Vincenzo Giuliani stepped to the window, listening to the late afternoon buzz of cicadas, and watched Celestina drag Emilio to the guinea-pig pen. The child's lace-pantied bottom suddenly upended as she leaned over the wire enclosure to grab a baby for Emilio, who sat smiling on the ground, black-and-silver hair spilling forward over high Taino cheekbones as he admired the little animal Celestina dumped in his lap.

It had taken four priests eight months of relentless pressure to get Emilio Sandoz to reveal what Celestina had learned in two minutes. Evidently, the Father General observed wryly, the best man for the job can sometimes be a four-year-old girl.

And he wished that Edward Behr had stayed to see this.

Incredible writing!!!!!

[taraswizard]

A few months ago, Duchess wrote that the Jana'Atta had a creation story aabout their origins, and a creator being of their species. That is not an equivalence to a religion. So my questiion seems to still be unanswered, it appears the VaRakhti do not have a religion. And four Jesuit priests did not find this unusual or strange?

[aliantha]

Fist will go to some major lengths to resurrect a thread. He sent me copies of both books.

So! To answer taras' question just above: The Jana'ata do have a religion, but you don't learn about it 'til the second book, and then only bits and pieces. And I think the reason you don't learn about it in the first book is pretty obvious, when you think about it: the mission spends almost the whole book with the Runa, whose mythology consists of "we're here to support the Jana'ata, in life and in death." The only Jana'ata they come in contact with is Supaarni, who is a merchant. And who's left of the Jesuits by then? (I tend to think of Alan Pace as the red-shirted guy, heh.) DW's health is failing, Robichaux is a botanist, and Sandoz is admittedly kind of an agnostic, at least before they arrive. I guess it's kind of weird that nobody discussed religion with Supaarni (altho he and Sofia do talk about it some in the second book). But Supaarni connects most deeply with Anne, who's agnostic at best.

Meh, I dunno.

Anyway, I thought the books were really good. And I know exactly why they weren't marketed as sf -- because as far as the marketing department was concerned, nothing this well-written could possibly be genre.

[taraswizard]

Written earlier today

...) DW's health is failing, Robichaux is a botanist, and Sandoz is admittedly kind of an agnostic, at least before they arrive.

WHAT?? If Sandoz is an agnostic, so is the Dalai Lama and Mohandas Gandhi?

Looking back over some previous messages, I saw a few things. OK, so introducing the Jana'anta's religion in the second book, seems to be a convenient plot technique by Russell. If anyone will take the time one should look up online Cheryl Morgan's review at her old perzine, Emerald City, because she's pretty scathing and dismissive about this book (Cheryl doesn't like it much).

I'm referring back to The Mote...God's Eye by Niven and Pournelle. I read this book in the 1970s, and until a friend told me not to read the Moties as civilized beings it did not make any sense to me at all.

Next, I happened t read this around the time I first saw Costner's Dances with Wolves. And of course I found lots of similarities between 'First contact narratives' and Costner's movie. As is known Costner is an avid reader of Spec Fic so his incorporation of first contact tropes into his movie might be unconscious on his part. And if you read any of the Russell's comments about the book, some of these might be in the DelRey tpbk,

Spoiler

she was writing this fiction based on knowledge of the European's contact to the Americas

[aliantha]

Written earlier today

...) DW's health is failing, Robichaux is a botanist, and Sandoz is admittedly kind of an agnostic, at least before they arrive.

WHAT?? If Sandoz is an agnostic, so is the Dalai Lama and Mohandas Gandhi?

Looking back over some previous messages, I saw a few things. OK, so introducing the Jana'anta's religion in the second book, seems to be a convenient plot technique by Russell. If anyone will take the time one should look up online Cheryl Morgan's review at her old perzine, Emerald City, because she's pretty scathing and dismissive about this book (Cheryl doesn't like it much).

taras, I respectfully disagree with a couple of your points above.

I just read Morgan's reviews of both books, and while she admits they have problems (possibly big enough to pilot a lander through, but I digress), she expressly says she enjoyed them both and that The Sparrow deserved a Hugo.

And maybe Sandoz wasn't an agnostic, per se, before setting foot on Rakhat. But his belief in God wasn't exactly knock-yer-socks-off strong, either. It seemed to me that his decision to enter the priesthood was one of pragmatism ("get me out of this drug-fueled, violent hellhole"); he certainly didn't seem to me to have a "calling," although he certainly enjoyed his work.

In fact, I was struck by how many of the Jesuits struggled with their faith, in one way or another.

Sandoz certainly *became* more devout as the first mission to Rakhat progressed, and was positively euphoric once he got there (wasn't it DW who said he looked at Sandoz at first contact and believed he was in the presence of a saint?). But he struggles hugely with his relationship with God after the mission falls apart.

Spoiler

And in the second book, he resigns from the priesthood.

I think that's one of the things that makes Sandoz so appealing as a character: that he does have doubts. He's not a cardboard cutout of a "saint".

[Fist and Faith]

FYI, I emailed a Jesuit group I found on the internet back when I read these books. A few years ago.

To my knowledge, I have never met a Jesuit. Nor have I heard anything about your organization, aside from the fact that you are an order of Catholic priests. I just read a book called "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell. The following paragraph is amazon.com's editorial review:

In 2019, humanity finally finds proof of extraterrestrial life when a listening post in Puerto Rico picks up exquisite singing from a planet which will come to be known as Rakhat. While United Nations diplomats endlessly debate a possible first contact mission, the Society of Jesus quietly organizes an eight-person scientific expedition of its own. What the Jesuits find is a world so beyond comprehension that it will lead them to question the meaning of being "human." When the lone survivor of the expedition, Emilio Sandoz, returns to Earth in 2059, he will try to explain what went wrong... Words like "provocative" and "compelling" will come to mind as you read this shocking novel about first contact with a race that creates music akin to both poetry and prayer.

In my opinion, Russell makes Jesuits look very, very good. I was wondering if any of you have read the book, and, if so, what they thought of it. I'm interested in whether you think she depicted your organization accurately. It's certainly possible for Jesuits, on the whole, to be quite different than they are in the book, yet still be people that I would think highly of. I'm just curious how close she came to the mark.

And here's the response:

Dear Mr. Kniffin,

Yes, Russell does present a positive image of the Jesuits in her novel. There were a number of book reviews written by Jesuits when the novel was published (1997). You might want to search the web for those. By and large, Jesuits thought Russell did a good job in the novel...

I hope this helps!

Thomas P. Gaunt, S.J.
Socius
Jesuit Conference
1616 P Street, NW Suite # 300
Washington, DC 20036

[aliantha]

That was very nice of him to reply to you, Fist.