Avatar

The KWMdB.

Moderators: sgt.null, dANdeLION

User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19843
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Shuram Gudatetris wrote:
dANdeLION wrote:If it were up to me, I'd just go by the number of tickets sold....the whole adjusting for inflation business seems unnecessary if you just compare apples to apples.
If you want to break that down even further, one would have to consider the following: in Gone With the Wind days, video entertainment was much more limited than it is now. For that type of entertainment, you almost had to go to a movie theater to see a moving picture (I believe it came out right around the time when television was in its infancy). Now you have cable television with HD programming, DVR's, DVD players, Blu-Ray discs, and you can even watch most of your favorite shows on the internet. Personally, I have a pretty sweet home theater myself (projector, high quality surround sound) which means I purposefully wait to see some movies so that I can watch them in the comfort of my own home.

My point being that even if GWtW did better in ticket sales, maybe back in those days they sold a lot of the same kind of apple, but nowadays there is a dozen different kind of apples available at every grocery store.
Very good point. But I'll counter that point by noting that there were much fewer people on the planet at that time. So given the fact that the potential audience was much smaller, this balances out the fact that they had less entertainment choices.

Is there ever any fair way to compare the "success" of one movie to another through time? I doubt it.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
User avatar
Obi-Wan Nihilo
Pathetic
Posts: 6503
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

I saw Avatar last night. As has been said before, it was Dances With Wolves (one of my favorite movies) meets Return of the Jedi meets Pocohantas. It was also, as many have said, manipulative, banal, and a bit naive and preachy. It may also be a cultural touchstone, even though I'm not sure I fully swallow its allegorical narrative.

It's interesting to look back at some other of Cameron's projects in the light of this latest one. I won't try to survey his entire oeuvre here (although that might be interesting for this analysis as well) but will try to hit some of the high points (how high is of course debatable). There is, it seems to me, a thread that binds them all.

Let's begin with The Terminator. We all know the story of course. What is the subtext of Cameron's movie? In an industrial age devoted to materialistic excess and the drive to subjugate and control, bubbly Sarah Connor has a horrifying doppelganger: an unstoppable, murderous machine. This of course symbolizes the self-destructive aspect of technological materialistic culture, most notably represented by the threat of nuclear annihilation. (I feel like I'm echoing the Unabomber, although I've never read his treatise -- fertile ground for a thesis probably.) The question posed is how one reacts to the revelation of one's shared culpability in a culture headed for armaggedon, and whether the individual has viable options other than continuing to participate in that culture.

I'll gloss over Aliens except to say that mankind's arrogance leads to an encounter with fearsome Aliens that are one part chthonic vengeance and another part human doppelganger, showering us with the acid of our own image as parasitic murderous breeding machines who twist natural landscapes into infernal nightmares. (Lots of doppelgangers, eh)

Then you have Terminator 2: Judgment Day which continues the Terminator themes, although man's infernal drives have been distilled into that modern bogeyman the Corporation as dehumanizing institution. The action centers around attempts to counteract the Corporate threat despite the feeling that these attempts are in some sense futile. Ultimately the choice is made to sacrifice the security of technology itself (a battered Arnie into a pool of molten steel) in the hope of reconnecting with some more genuine and less destructive way of being human.

Then there is Titanic, which is of course is a metaphor for civilization itself. The characters' merry confidence in a bright and limitless future is shattered like the steel of the hull by the iceberg. Ultimately the question becomes, if tomorrow is not promised, and civilization is a sinking ship, what can give life meaning? The answer is given when Jack's loving self-sacrifice becomes the noble fulcrum on which Rose's entire future depends. We are told that love gives meaning, but also that love transcends mere affectation to require genuine sacrifice, even our lives.

So we come to Avatar, in some ways the culmination of this thread. Avatar presents a choice, a banal choice it is true, but the point is in part its banality. Banality does not dispel urgency here, it emphasizes it. While Dances With Wolves was a masturbatory exercise in sentimental revisionist nostalgia, Avatar is very much concerned with what is presented as the current historical crisis. Aided by 3-D effects, Cameron breaks through the fourth wall to show us the writing which is all too clearly upon it: it is impossible to love one way and live another forever.

Even if we are as apparently dependent as crippled Jake on modern technology, the choice to cling to technological civilization as currently constituted is the choice to destroy the planet and ultimately ourselves; not least the spirit before the body. This is not a Disney platitude; this is a warning that reverberates with resounding finality, like the words of an Old Testament prophet busy shaking the dust off his sandals. (Who better to give us this warning than a man so adept at presenting images of archetypal horror.)

Perhaps the Navi are naive (the pun is no mistake in my opinion) but perhaps also that naivete is the very essence of what makes hope possible, the will to believe in a higher purpose or power despite the ubiquity of alienation and cynicism within western culture. What else other than naivete can overcome that ultimate corrosive of all-that-is-good, cynicism. In Cameron's cosmogony cynicism is a kind of spiritual starvation, an excuse to sit there and perish along with everything else. It is naivete that offers sustenance, and more importantly, love. In the end, the finger is pointed squarely at the viewer and in that sense the movie succeeds, whether or not you buy the premise in whole, part, or even at all.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19843
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Exnihilo2, that is an astonishingly insightful, well-written post. I realize you’re analysing Cameron’s artistic output, and not proselytising. So please take the rest of my post as an argument against Cameron’s views, and not a criticism of your analysis.
This of course symbolizes the self-destructive aspect of technological materialistic culture, most notably represented by the threat of nuclear annihilation.
We’ve been using myths to capture this doomsday fear of self-destructive hubris at least since Icarus. While those fears are not necessarily naïve or entirely misplaced, it is but one theme running parellel to that which is construed by this doomsday scenario as naïve, namely, the technological Utopia which advocates of industrial “progress” would have us believe. Yet both are true: we do have the power to destroy ourselves, and we’ve used that power in limited doses throughout our history. And yet it’s also true that with our technology we are providing greater prosperity, health, longevity, information, communication, access to resources, and understanding of our existence. By failing to include either side of this dichotomous truth, either reductionist view becomes naïve. You characterize “naivete” as the remedy. I believe it is the problem, because it is either a dismissal of the danger by the Techno-utopians, or dismissal of the solution to that danger by the Enviro-utopians.
The question posed is how one reacts to the revelation of one's shared culpability in a culture headed for armaggedon, and whether the individual has viable options other than continuing to participate in that culture.
This question assumes culpability for something that hasn’t happened, and may never happen. It also assumes that a “viable option” is necessary to avoid the doomsday scenario. Continuing to participate in this culture may in fact continue to bring more of the positives outcomes I listed above, and that increase of positive effects may itself be the key to avoiding the armaggedon. Look how the Cold War threat dissolved with economic progress in one nation, and the insistance of similar progress (and the freedom necessary to achieve it) by citizens in the other nation. At no point in our history have the threats posed by technological advancement ever resolved themselves by accepting the naïve premise that the technological advancement is itself the problem. The opposite has consistently been the case. Pollution is resolved by making our factories more efficient and technologically advanced. Political strife is resolved by improved standards of living and weaving interconnected global markets.
Then you have Terminator 2: Judgment Day which continues the Terminator themes, although man's infernal drives have been distilled into that modern bogeyman the Corporation as dehumanizing institution. The action centers around attempts to counteract the Corporate threat despite the feeling that these attempts are in some sense futile.
The feeling of futility against the “threat” of corporations is an illusion (perhaps that’s why you say it’s a “bogeyman”). Unions were the 20th century remedy to the problem of corporate power (which was really a problem of monopolies combined with government corruption). However, unions have become so powerful against corporations, that the existence of unions actually threatens the very basis of corporate power in the free market: profit. (Look at GM). On the consumer side, we can easily bring down a corporation by refusing to purchase its product. The reason that we feel futile against corporations is because we have created an illusory enemy. A bogeyman.
Ultimately the choice is made to sacrifice the security of technology itself (a battered Arnie into a pool of molten steel) in the hope of reconnecting with some more genuine and less destructive way of being human.
What is a “more genuine” way of being human? Technology and the construction of machines is quintessentially human. It is intelligence manifested in the real world. While our machines can be destructive, some destruction is always necessary for advancement. Though I agree that we don’t need as much destruction as we’ve caused in history, the amount we’re led to fear seems to always reside in the same realm as enviro-utopias: in our myths.
Then there is Titanic, which is of course is a metaphor for civilization itself. The characters' merry confidence in a bright and limitless future is shattered like the steel of the hull by the iceberg. Ultimately the question becomes, if tomorrow is not promised, and civilization is a sinking ship, what can give life meaning? The answer is given when Jack's loving self-sacrifice becomes the noble fulcrum on which Rose's entire future depends. We are told that love gives meaning, but also that love transcends mere affectation to require genuine sacrifice, even our lives.
Titanic can’t possibly be a metaphor for civilization itself. At most it is metaphor for one feature of civilization (its temporary setbacks). We have built bigger boats since Titanic. The sinking of one ship—no matter how much it captured our dreams—doesn’t make a dent in the fact that millions of other (many of them larger) ships still carry these dreams just fine. At what point do we recognize that these “cautionary tales” which are supposed to make our ambition and hope seem naïve, are only sustained by ignoring reality? What lesson were we supposed to learn from this metaphor? Turn the ship of civilization around? Don’t build the ship of civilization to begin with? In reality, the actual lesson we learned worked just fine: build better ships. Why can’t the inevitible sacrifice of a ship here and there be the “fulcrum” of a noble future, instead of harbinger of armeggeden? This metaphor only seems attractive to those who couldn’t afford passage on the ship—or those who weren’t powerful enough to get a place on one of the lifeboats. But we can’t define our future by the metaphors created by the poor and the weak, the shore-bound or the drowned. We can do better than that cynicism.
Even if we are as apparently dependent as crippled Jake on modern technology, the choice to cling to technological civilization as currently constituted is the choice to destroy the planet and ultimately ourselves; not least the spirit before the body. This is not a Disney platitude; this is a warning that reverberates with resounding finality, like the words of an Old Testament prophet busy shaking the dust off his sandals. (Who better to give us this warning than a man so adept at presenting images of archetypal horror.)
As an atheist, I don’t really make much distinction between Old Testament prophets and Disney platitudes. I think that the “crisis” of destroying the planet and ourselves is about as realistic as the mythical Flood. Even if the worse predictions of global warming come true, the planet and its inhabitants—even civilization itself—will survive. Will some coastal cities be flooded? Sure. But did the sinking of the Titanic stop ocean travel? No. We’ll surivive global warming.
Perhaps the Navi are naive (the pun is no mistake in my opinion) but perhaps also that naivete is the very essence of what makes hope possible, the will to believe in a higher purpose or power despite the ubiquity of alienation and cynicism within western culture. What else other than naivete can overcome that ultimate corrosive of all-that-is-good, cynicism. In Cameron's cosmogony cynicism is a kind of spiritual starvation, an excuse to sit there and perish along with everything else. It is naivete that offers sustenance, and more importantly, love. In the end, the finger is pointed squarely at the viewer and in that sense the movie succeeds, whether or not you buy the premise in whole, part, or even at all.
Naivete makes false hope possible. The “ubiquity of alienation and cynicism” is perpetuated by the very people who are warning us against it! It is created by naivete, by failing to see the positive side of our technological society, and peddling Disney Doomsday scenarios. It is created by those who think the solution to Titanic is to stop making boats, or to start becoming little self-sacrificing Christs for each other. That is defeatism and nihilism. You don’t create a “higher purpose” by condemning the world. You do it by accepting the world. Nietzsche said, “A nihilist is a man who judges of the world as it is that it ought not to be, and of the world as it ought to be that it does not exist.” While we shouldn’t believe that there is no danger in technological advancement (techno-utopian naivete), neither should we judge these negative aspects against societies that do not (cannot) exist (anti-techno-utopian naivete). There is a middle ground, and most of us in Western society are walking it. While it’s true that we have lost our tribal, communal connection to our neighbors and “nature,” we have gained a global network of interconnected minds tele-communicating. I don’t have a tail that plugs into mythical animals, but I’ve got an ethernet cable that plugs me into your mind. We are building the world-mind ourselves.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
User avatar
Montresor
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:07 am

Post by Montresor »

One thing that should be kept in mind when considering the box-office achievement of Gone With the Wind is the radically different nature of cinema in our own times. I'll say nothing about the power and prevalence of advertising and marketing compared to yesteryear.

It's often said that films which do well today have to compete with a multitude of other entertainment options, making a blockbuster more remarkable now than in the '30s. Though it is true that films today do compete with many alternatives, the same is 100% true of the early twentieth century. Furthermore, while we can go into a dvd store and rent something that never got a cinematic release, this was never the case beforehand.

At the time of GWtW, everything which was filmed received a cinematic release (and many have only ever received this). The number of films being screened in metropolitan centres until the advent of television was astronomically higher than today. Major cities had scores more cinemas to accomodate this than exist now. The choice, in terms of cinema-going was on a scale we simply do not see anymore.

Most cinemas also never bothered to eject people after sessions had ended - this led to major over-crowding in popular venues, as many patrons simply stayed to watch a film two or even three times. There are numerous accounts of films being used as a kind of day care. So, one ticket sale could equate to multiple viewings by an individual of the same feature. This goes some way into contextualising just how culturally powerfully some early films could be.

Personally, I think GWtW is a mostly tedious film, with a facile and pernicious theme, though there is little denying its collosal impact as piece of cinema and cultural history.

I enjoyed Avatar. It was entertaining, and its effects lived up to their hype. I remember thinking, while watching the movie, that the script, characters, and plot were utterly predictable. I'd seen most of these caricatures in other Cameron movies. However, I also remember thinking that I didn't really care - the film's unashamed draw card was its spectacle, and it delivered. I suspect that I would find it dull on a second or third viewing, but I don't feel the need to see it again in any case.

As for the theme - I'm not convinced Cameron approached that in an entirely political manner. This is almost a pastiche, a genre piece, highly derivative of cliches which have remained popular since the 18thC. Cameron has dealt with similiar themes before, but I find it nearly impossible to take any of his work seriously. I suspect the theme is informed by the genre and setting, more so than the personal feelings of the film-makers. Much like Ford's Grapes of Wrath - an undoubtedly socialist masterpiece, made by an unashamedly conservative director.
"For the love of God, Montresor!"
"Yes," I said, "for the love of God!" - Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado.

Image
User avatar
finn
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 4349
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....

Post by finn »

I've long held a view that there are only so many stories out there; only so many plays by the Bard, Arabian Night and travellers to Cantebury; much of the rest is a re-telling or derivative and as such whether it be Cameron or Kurasawa there will inevitably be a sense of familiarity in the storylines. Equally the protaganists, both good and evil will have a sense or the generic and for me explains why many actors of each generation end up playing the same characters as their predecessors.

I wholeheartedly agree with Montresor's comment:
I enjoyed Avatar. It was entertaining, and its effects lived up to their hype. I remember thinking, while watching the movie, that the script, characters, and plot were utterly predictable. I'd seen most of these caricatures in other Cameron movies. However, I also remember thinking that I didn't really care - the film's unashamed draw card was its spectacle, and it delivered.
I do contend though that it was more a re-telling of The Last Samurai: a broken vet gets hired to go sort out the savages and finds his own salvation in their nobility and leads them in the fight against modernism crushing their spirit or freedom.

Really excellent posts Ex2 and Z.
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"

"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"

"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."

"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"

"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
User avatar
Worm of Despite
Lord
Posts: 9546
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Rome, GA
Contact:

Post by Worm of Despite »

I can't believe this piece of generic-ism has elicited such a large response. Aside from the 3D visuals, which wore off quickly after I knew how typical and predictable the story would be, I didn't see much going for it. Aliens, which was much tighter and gripping, seemed to be made by a totally different director.

There's classics, then there's bloated attempts at classics. Then there's the human race, which fails to recognize the difference.
User avatar
Montresor
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:07 am

Post by Montresor »

Lord Foul wrote:I can't believe this piece of generic-ism has elicited such a large response. Aside from the 3D visuals, which wore off quickly after I knew how typical and predictable the story would be, I didn't see much going for it. Aliens, which was much tighter and gripping, seemed to be made by a totally different director.

There's classics, then there's bloated attempts at classics. Then there's the human race, which fails to recognize the difference.
I agree, Aliens is the far more noteworthy film. Though it suffered to a lesser degree from caricature in the script and characters.

While I've seen Aliens many times, and will watch it at least another few more in my life, it's very unlikely I would see Avatar more than another time. I am curious to watch it on the small screen, just to see how much the whole experience degrades.

People will talk about what's in the public mind, regardless of its comparative artisitic worth. There are many better films than Avatar which never get discussed at all, but that's neither surprising nor unnatural.
finn wrote: I do contend though that it was more a re-telling of The Last Samurai: a broken vet gets hired to go sort out the savages and finds his own salvation in their nobility and leads them in the fight against modernism crushing their spirit or freedom.

Really excellent posts Ex2 and Z.
The comparison is definitely valid. Personally, the whole time I was watching Avatar, I kept thinking of Dune.
"For the love of God, Montresor!"
"Yes," I said, "for the love of God!" - Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado.

Image
User avatar
Worm of Despite
Lord
Posts: 9546
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Rome, GA
Contact:

Post by Worm of Despite »

Montresor wrote:People will talk about what's in the public mind, regardless of its comparative artisitic worth. There are many better films than Avatar which never get discussed at all, but that's neither surprising nor unnatural.
Yeah. I suppose I hold too high a standard for the collective unconscious. Heh.
"I support the destruction of the Think-Tank." - Avatar, August 2008
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

Excellent posts by Exnihilo, Zarathustra and Montresor.

What's curious about Avatar is that, despite its box office take, it hasn't had much cultural impact.
Or maybe all the buzz is on Twitter, Facebook and whatnot - places I don't visit.

Among the all-time box office champs, Star Wars stands out to me as the one that had a truly massive influence on culture.
I wonder if Avatar - or any of the other top-grossing films - will be remembered with fondness three decades from now, the way we look back at Star Wars today.
(Maybe LOTR is the only real rival to Star Wars in that sense.)

Still, the technical achievement of Avatar is so splendid that I'd watch it again just for that.
I'll be very disappointed if Avatar leaves town without having a run in IMAX.
User avatar
finn
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 4349
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....

Post by finn »

It's on IMAX here in Sydney and apparently sensational, but good luck getting a ticket!
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"

"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"

"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."

"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"

"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19843
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Thanks Finn, Matrixman.
matrixman wrote:I wonder if Avatar - or any of the other top-grossing films - will be remembered with fondness three decades from now, the way we look back at Star Wars today.
I think all you have to do is look at how many kids are playing with Avatar toys. The cultural revolution of Star Wars, and its impact on 30-somethings today, has everything to do with how kids spent their entire summers pretending to be Luke Skywalker, and the treasure hunt of tracking down every last action figure at the store. My kid hasn't even mentioned Avatar since we saw it, much less asked for a toy (if they even exist).

Star Wars was eye candy, but it was also mind candy (in the sense of capturing the imagination). No kid wants to pretend to be a cripple who fights to save the environment. Yawn. Darth Vader is a villian of mythic proportions. Corporate greed is merely contemporary political propaganda. The two villians in these stories just don't compare in the imaginations of children.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
User avatar
dANdeLION
Lord
Posts: 23836
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
Contact:

Post by dANdeLION »

Earlier today I asked my kids if they saw it yet, some of them did, in 3-D, and they all thought it was 'awesome' and the 'blue people' were 'bad@$$', but yeah, usually if a flick is really great, I don't get the chance to ask them if they saw it, because they've already blabbed half the plot to me. Anyway, I probably should gather up the rest and take them to see it......
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


High priest of THOOOTP

:hobbes: *

* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
User avatar
Obi-Wan Nihilo
Pathetic
Posts: 6503
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Though I do not have time to respond fully to the posts above, I will chime in with a word or two in defense of Cameron. Although the unironic, derivative banality of his aesthetic may be distasteful to those with refined sensibilities, much of Cameron's banality seems deliberate rather than simply obtuse. For instance, the vapid "unobtanium," the hackneyed plot (corporation destroys nature, natives resist), characters and situations transparently modelled on other movies, and even the pseudo-exotic papyrus font used for the title and captions point to deliberate allegory. We might say that Avatar's Freudian slip is showing, but it seems all too conspicuous. I would caution those who are all-too-clever to guard against the impulse of a cynical culture to forever unravel the irony of its own campy sweater. I think Cameron is not winking with campy mirth, but earnestly inviting us to peer under the slip of this movie and see what we find (a mirror, or course... or is that on our shoe?). Whether we like it or not, agree with it or not, it does seem to function as the mass-protelyzation of a simplified aethos suspended in a pop culture medium. Philologists and their ilk are not the target demographic, it the consumer that needs broadly accesible symbols in order to evolve their sensibilities. That Cameron sustains such a simplified enterprise with only indirect irony is a noteworthy achievement.

I intend to post something more, hopefully soon. Thanks for the kind comments all.

-Ex
User avatar
Menolly
A Lowly Harper
Posts: 24184
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 12:29 am
Location: Harper Hall, Fort Hold, Northern Continent, Pern...
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 15 times
Contact:

Post by Menolly »

Zarathustra wrote:I think all you have to do is look at how many kids are playing with Avatar toys. The cultural revolution of Star Wars, and its impact on 30-somethings today, has everything to do with how kids spent their entire summers pretending to be Luke Skywalker, and the treasure hunt of tracking down every last action figure at the store. My kid hasn't even mentioned Avatar since we saw it, much less asked for a toy (if they even exist).

Star Wars was eye candy, but it was also mind candy (in the sense of capturing the imagination). No kid wants to pretend to be a cripple who fights to save the environment. Yawn. Darth Vader is a villian of mythic proportions. Corporate greed is merely contemporary political propaganda. The two villians in these stories just don't compare in the imaginations of children.
I these are the toys available for Avatar, the market is probably totally different than "action figures" were for Star Wars.
Image
User avatar
Obi-Wan Nihilo
Pathetic
Posts: 6503
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Zarathustra wrote:Exnihilo2, that is an astonishingly insightful, well-written post. I realize you’re analysing Cameron’s artistic output, and not proselytising. So please take the rest of my post as an argument against Cameron’s views, and not a criticism of your analysis. [Dan, if you want to split this discussion to the Close, I have no problem.]
This of course symbolizes the self-destructive aspect of technological materialistic culture, most notably represented by the threat of nuclear annihilation.
We’ve been using myths to capture this doomsday fear of self-destructive hubris at least since Icarus. While those fears are not necessarily naïve or entirely misplaced, it is but one theme running parellel to that which is construed by this doomsday scenario as naïve, namely, the technological Utopia which advocates of industrial “progress” would have us believe. Yet both are true: we do have the power to destroy ourselves, and we’ve used that power in limited doses throughout our history. And yet it’s also true that with our technology we are providing greater prosperity, health, longevity, information, communication, access to resources, and understanding of our existence. By failing to include either side of this dichotomous truth, either reductionist view becomes naïve. You characterize “naivete” as the remedy. I believe it is the problem, because it is either a dismissal of the danger by the Techno-utopians, or dismissal of the solution to that danger by the Enviro-utopians.
The question posed is how one reacts to the revelation of one's shared culpability in a culture headed for armaggedon, and whether the individual has viable options other than continuing to participate in that culture.
This question assumes culpability for something that hasn’t happened, and may never happen. It also assumes that a “viable option” is necessary to avoid the doomsday scenario. Continuing to participate in this culture may in fact continue to bring more of the positives outcomes I listed above, and that increase of positive effects may itself be the key to avoiding the armaggedon. Look how the Cold War threat dissolved with economic progress in one nation, and the insistance of similar progress (and the freedom necessary to achieve it) by citizens in the other nation. At no point in our history have the threats posed by technological advancement ever resolved themselves by accepting the naïve premise that the technological advancement is itself the problem. The opposite has consistently been the case. Pollution is resolved by making our factories more efficient and technologically advanced. Political strife is resolved by improved standards of living and weaving interconnected global markets.
Then you have Terminator 2: Judgment Day which continues the Terminator themes, although man's infernal drives have been distilled into that modern bogeyman the Corporation as dehumanizing institution. The action centers around attempts to counteract the Corporate threat despite the feeling that these attempts are in some sense futile.
The feeling of futility against the “threat” of corporations is an illusion (perhaps that’s why you say it’s a “bogeyman”). Unions were the 20th century remedy to the problem of corporate power (which was really a problem of monopolies combined with government corruption). However, unions have become so powerful against corporations, that the existence of unions actually threatens the very basis of corporate power in the free market: profit. (Look at GM). On the consumer side, we can easily bring down a corporation by refusing to purchase its product. The reason that we feel futile against corporations is because we have created an illusory enemy. A bogeyman.
As you correctly point out, there are actually two discussions here: first is the question of Cameron's internal consistency of theme within the works mentioned and the proposition that a coherent meta-narrative spans them; second is the question of the persuasiveness of his rendering of theme in a political context. Clearly the second issue depends on the first, so let us consider the first for now.

Within The Terminator (hereafter referred to as "T1"), the reality of an impending apocalypse is assumed a priori in the narrative. Unlike T2, there is a strong implication that despite the apparent time-paradoxes surrounding the relationship of Sarah Connor and Reese, armageddon is unavoidable in the broadest sense. Technically this depends on the unavailability of information pertaining to the causal chain that leads to the creation of SkyNet (made available in T2), but the idea of averting the apocalypse is never entertained but is instead treated with fatalism.

What is confronted instead is the idea that the unreflective blood libation embodied by a bimbo pouring her life down a nihilistic vortex of hairspray and casual sex summons a relentless daemon of industry – a daemon that rapes and pillages at the ever-expanding margins to keep this existence possible. So we see the emergence of the theme of corporate evil, that the corporation is an all-too-effective servant of mankind’s nihilistic hunger. Service so effective, in fact, that the final product is a Morlock-cyborg with the will, the power, and the inclination to consume its patron and its maker. Presumably the nihilism of these drives makes their satisfaction inevitably self-destructive and evil.
Ultimately the choice is made to sacrifice the security of technology itself (a battered Arnie into a pool of molten steel) in the hope of reconnecting with some more genuine and less destructive way of being human.
What is a “more genuine” way of being human? Technology and the construction of machines is quintessentially human. It is intelligence manifested in the real world. While our machines can be destructive, some destruction is always necessary for advancement. Though I agree that we don’t need as much destruction as we’ve caused in history, the amount we’re led to fear seems to always reside in the same realm as enviro-utopias: in our myths.
A more genuine way of being human would not involve the destruction of both humanity and the earth via the aforementioned industrial daemons. That is not to say that technology should be scrapped per se; merely that mankind needs to hold itself accountable for the consequences of its choices, instead of pretending that there are no consequences.
Then there is Titanic, which is of course is a metaphor for civilization itself. The characters' merry confidence in a bright and limitless future is shattered like the steel of the hull by the iceberg. Ultimately the question becomes, if tomorrow is not promised, and civilization is a sinking ship, what can give life meaning? The answer is given when Jack's loving self-sacrifice becomes the noble fulcrum on which Rose's entire future depends. We are told that love gives meaning, but also that love transcends mere affectation to require genuine sacrifice, even our lives.
Titanic can’t possibly be a metaphor for civilization itself. At most it is metaphor for one feature of civilization (its temporary setbacks). We have built bigger boats since Titanic. The sinking of one ship—no matter how much it captured our dreams—doesn’t make a dent in the fact that millions of other (many of them larger) ships still carry these dreams just fine. At what point do we recognize that these “cautionary tales” which are supposed to make our ambition and hope seem naïve, are only sustained by ignoring reality? What lesson were we supposed to learn from this metaphor? Turn the ship of civilization around? Don’t build the ship of civilization to begin with? In reality, the actual lesson we learned worked just fine: build better ships. Why can’t the inevitible sacrifice of a ship here and there be the “fulcrum” of a noble future, instead of harbinger of armeggeden? This metaphor only seems attractive to those who couldn’t afford passage on the ship—or those who weren’t powerful enough to get a place on one of the lifeboats. But we can’t define our future by the metaphors created by the poor and the weak, the shore-bound or the drowned. We can do better than that cynicism.
A ship is an isolated container of the civilization that generates it, so that it may easily be said to represent that culture. In this particular case, Titanic the “unsinkable ship” was supposed to represent the technological and cultural zenith of Western Civilization; that it foundered on an unseen catastrophe (almost like a floating Tower of Babel) has always been seen as an apt metaphor (or even prophecy) for the collision of Western Civilization with the unseen catastrophe of World War I. In ways which are too numerous to mention, that war was a shattering event for Western Civilization, in that many of the cultural pillars of that society were demolished as much as was the physical landscape of Europe. A good exposition of this can be found in the book Verdun: The Death of Glory. Much of the optimism and faith in progress that existed in Europe were permanently lost, and in a sense Western Civilization has been little more than a foundering hulk adrift on nihilistic seas ever since.
Even if we are as apparently dependent as crippled Jake on modern technology, the choice to cling to technological civilization as currently constituted is the choice to destroy the planet and ultimately ourselves; not least the spirit before the body. This is not a Disney platitude; this is a warning that reverberates with resounding finality, like the words of an Old Testament prophet busy shaking the dust off his sandals. (Who better to give us this warning than a man so adept at presenting images of archetypal horror.)
As an atheist, I don’t really make much distinction between Old Testament prophets and Disney platitudes. I think that the “crisis” of destroying the planet and ourselves is about as realistic as the mythical Flood. Even if the worse predictions of global warming come true, the planet and its inhabitants—even civilization itself—will survive. Will some coastal cities be flooded? Sure. But did the sinking of the Titanic stop ocean travel? No. We’ll surivive global warming.
We are living in a climactic epoch that is considered unusually mild and stable. Prior to 1830 there was a long period of climactic instability stretching back to the Black Death that led to many periods of famine and pestilence and what can only be called “de-civilization.” There are also other periods of widespread catastrophe that are known both historically and archaeologically such as that which ended the Minoan civilization and severely affected Egypt and the Near East at the same time. And going back 250MYA, the Permian mass-extinction is generally understood as one of the most complete in the history of life on earth, and was triggered by a shift in earth’s temperature of about 10 degrees Celsius over thousands of years. I think prolonged comfort has brought a failure of imagination about the potential for catastrophe and our vulnerability to it. For instance, you may not be aware that thanks to our industrial efficiency there is currently 3 days of food on store shelves and in transit at any one time. Anything (such as a pandemic or broad natural disaster) that interrupted the chain of production and distribution for longer than that could lead to a complete collapse of the socioeconomic system. Elements of our civilization would no doubt continue, but to say that our civilization would survive is like saying that Minoan civilization or Roman civilization has survived to the present day. From the point of view of those societies, those social orders were destroyed.
Perhaps the Navi are naive (the pun is no mistake in my opinion) but perhaps also that naivete is the very essence of what makes hope possible, the will to believe in a higher purpose or power despite the ubiquity of alienation and cynicism within western culture. What else other than naivete can overcome that ultimate corrosive of all-that-is-good, cynicism. In Cameron's cosmogony cynicism is a kind of spiritual starvation, an excuse to sit there and perish along with everything else. It is naivete that offers sustenance, and more importantly, love. In the end, the finger is pointed squarely at the viewer and in that sense the movie succeeds, whether or not you buy the premise in whole, part, or even at all.
Naivete makes false hope possible. The “ubiquity of alienation and cynicism” is perpetuated by the very people who are warning us against it! It is created by naivete, by failing to see the positive side of our technological society, and peddling Disney Doomsday scenarios. It is created by those who think the solution to Titanic is to stop making boats, or to start becoming little self-sacrificing Christs for each other. That is defeatism and nihilism. You don’t create a “higher purpose” by condemning the world. You do it by accepting the world. Nietzsche said, “A nihilist is a man who judges of the world as it is that it ought not to be, and of the world as it ought to be that it does not exist.” While we shouldn’t believe that there is no danger in technological advancement (techno-utopian naivete), neither should we judge these negative aspects against societies that do not (cannot) exist (anti-techno-utopian naivete). There is a middle ground, and most of us in Western society are walking it. While it’s true that we have lost our tribal, communal connection to our neighbors and “nature,” we have gained a global network of interconnected minds tele-communicating. I don’t have a tail that plugs into mythical animals, but I’ve got an ethernet cable that plugs me into your mind. We are building the world-mind ourselves.
Actually I would take issue with the idea that alienation and cynicism are caused by naivete. Instead I would posit that they are separate but related cultural developments that depend upon the fundamental structure of society. In the case of alienation, it is a consequence of the replacement of relatively sedentary rural societies with many degrees of relatedness experienced by individuals within the community. We are talking about the end of communities of real persons and their replacement by communities of abstract, isolated individuals and deconstructed nuclear families. Where once your neighbor was a family with a longstanding relationship to your family, so that they would probably treat your offspring with a desirable degree of protection and guidance if needed; now that same neighbor is unknown to you and presented to your children as an example of “stranger danger” to be avoided. Alienation is nothing more than feeling a) threatened by the average member of society and b) disconnected from them in terms of accountability (in either direction). When we are all strangers, no one will step up and say “that is wrong,” they will simply obey the herd.

Cynicism is founded on this protracted lack of accountability, in that the antisocial tendencies latent in any society are no longer impeded by the prevalence of personal accountability, and are instead allowed to accumulate for the advantages they give in the absence of social sanction. Ultimately the only cure is the cultivation of a more grounded form of social existence combined with the shared hope that social progress is possible.
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

Exnihilo2 wrote:I think prolonged comfort has brought a failure of imagination about the potential for catastrophe and our vulnerability to it. For instance, you may not be aware that thanks to our industrial efficiency there is currently 3 days of food on store shelves and in transit at any one time. Anything (such as a pandemic or broad natural disaster) that interrupted the chain of production and distribution for longer than that could lead to a complete collapse of the socioeconomic system.
Doomsday scenarios do sometimes cross my mind when I'm shopping at the grocery store - visions of food shortages, riots.
I know I'd be screwed, being a city boy who depends on that industrial efficiency, as you say.
I need to work on my survival skills - but not til after I see Avatar in IMAX 3D!
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19843
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

I started a new thread in the Tank to respond to Ex2.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
User avatar
Blackhawk
Bloodguard
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:10 am
Location: CA

Post by Blackhawk »

This movie was the best movie i have ever seen in my entire life. if you didnt see it in 3d then you really should. this was the first 3d movie i have seen since jaws 3d WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!

seriously.... I cant believe it was 3 hours long.... I wanted it to go on longer... I didnt get to see it in Stadium seating even... so cant imagine how insane it would have been on the Giant Screen.. Having gone to see it so late in its release it was even better... we didnt have one person in front of us.. it was almost like our own private screening... I was looking for Technical glitches & stuff that looked like it was CGI, and it was so Clean... UNBELIEVABLE!!

I cant wait for the Extended Version on Blu-Ray (Crosses Fingers) BEST MOVIE IN THE HISTORY OF MAN. IMO Thanks JC. I have absolutely no complaints about this movie at all.. the Aircraft was very much like the Craft in the Terminator movies. and the mechs were like those in Matrix.. they served the purpose they were intended for, to ugly up a beautiful landscape and steal from the Natives. Like Dances with Wolves 2432 A.D.
Image
User avatar
dANdeLION
Lord
Posts: 23836
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
Contact:

Post by dANdeLION »

Wow. How much did Cameron pay you to make that post?
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


High priest of THOOOTP

:hobbes: *

* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
User avatar
Blackhawk
Bloodguard
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:10 am
Location: CA

Post by Blackhawk »

dANdeLION wrote:Wow. How much did Cameron pay you to make that post?
I would like to say a 1.5 million but in truth it came from the Experience i had. nothing can compare as of yet. It really didnt make a difference to me if the Mechs and the Aircraft were something i have already seen, I have always liked crossovers. and I know the movie was not anything Unique as far as the good bad steal from the natives storyline goes, it was the technology and the fact that I didnt have one boring moment during the three hours i was watching it. it made me feel the same way that the TCTC novels made me feel when i was a kid.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “Flicks”