Avatar

[Menolly]

Oh Blackhawk.
Thank you for saying what I tried to say earlier...

[matrixman]

I'm glad the movie meant so much to you, Blackhawk! We need the likes of you and Menolly to counterbalance the jaded perspectives here.

I'm still waiting to see Avatar in IMAX.

It's a no-brainer that I'll be getting the movie on blu-ray. The only question I have is: will I need to buy a new machine to play blu-ray 3D?

[Worm of Despite]

I'm glad the movie meant so much to you, Blackhawk! We need the likes of you and Menolly to counterbalance the jaded perspectives here.

Jaded? I just don't like the movie.

It's nachos and cheese compared to the warm apple pie of other flicks I've experienced. And sometimes some nachos are good, but these are like old, crusty nachos. Nachos that aren't fit to do Blade Runner's laundry. Or Aliens'. Or even Zardoz's. It's mass-cultural slush in the broadest strokes possible. Bam.

For my money, Children of Men is still the best sci-fi flick of the new century, though I haven't seen Moon yet. Those films weren't lobotomized spectacles for people crushed by 9 to 5 jobs.

[matrixman]

All right, Foul, I'll say sorry and keep the peace.

Let me rephrase: it's good to have Blackhawk and Menolly accentuating the positive in the midst of the negative opinions here.

[Rigel]

All right, Foul, I'll say sorry and keep the peace.

Let me rephrase: it's good to have Blackhawk and Menolly accentuating the positive in the midst of the negative opinions here.

Heh, you can say that again. Considering how negative my reaction to the movie was, we probably need a couple dozen Blackhawk's to make up for it.

While it's certainly not the worst movie I've ever seen, it's the worst movie I've ever seen that didn't skip the theatrical release. The sheer horror of how bad this movie was, coupled with disgust at how much money it made, are enough to crush the soul...

[Worm of Despite]

All right, Foul, I'll say sorry and keep the peace.

Let me rephrase: it's good to have Blackhawk and Menolly accentuating the positive in the midst of the negative opinions here.

No need for apologies, Matrix. My point was people liking or not liking a film is neither negative or positive! But then we're getting into the high, aerial fields of semantics...and maybe other stuff.

[Zarathustra]

It's a no-brainer that I'll be getting the movie on blu-ray. The only question I have is: will I need to buy a new machine to play blu-ray 3D?

New TVs will soon be able to do 3D at home. The HDMI spec 1.4a--which includes 3d--has been finalized and announced. And I think you'll need a new Blu-ray player, too.

The Blu-ray 3D specification is also designed to allow PS3 game consoles to playback Blu-ray 3D content in 3D. Additionally, the specification supports playback of 2D discs in forthcoming 3D
players and can enable 2D playback of Blu-ray 3D discs on the large installed base of Blu-ray Disc players currently in homes around the world.

link

From the press release, it seems to imply that PS3 consoles will be able to play 3D content, but I'm not sure if that means *new* PS3s, or the ones currently on the market. But then it says that 3D discs will work in 2D players, but only at 2D playback.

All I know is that I'm not replacing my entire system after a mere two years simply so I can have this new gimmick. Prices will have to come down substantially before I'll bite. Those of you who have waited this long to jump into HDTV will benefit the most.

[Loredoctor]

Can someone explain to me the issue regarding Sully, the avatar, his brother's death and travel times? Going by the assumption he saw his brother's body on Earth (given that Jake's haircut was different to the style he had when he arrived in orbit and on Pandora and the fact that his brother was killed during a mugging on Earth), and given that the journey to the world takes five to six years, exactly how long was the avatar in development and how long was Grace waiting?

The problem is that Grace requested Jake's brother, and started growing the avatar with his genetic sample. So, when was the sample taken and how long did it take to get to Pandora? Second, why would Grace have waited so long just to get some trainee? Seriously, six years she waited for Jake's brother? As Pandora was in the Alpha Centauri system, it's about three years for a message to be sent back, so are we looking at 9 years?

[Rigel]

You're thinking too hard. This movie wasn't made for that level of intelligence

[Menolly]

Can someone explain to me the issue regarding Sully, the avatar, his brother's death and travel times? Going by the assumption he saw his brother's body on Earth (given that Jake's haircut was different to the style he had when he arrived in orbit and on Pandora and the fact that his brother was killed during a mugging on Earth), and given that the journey to the world takes five to six years, exactly how long was the avatar in development and how long was Grace waiting?

The problem is that Grace requested Jake's brother, and started growing the avatar with his genetic sample. So, when was the sample taken and how long did it take to get to Pandora? Second, why would Grace have waited so long just to get some trainee? Seriously, six years she waited for Jake's brother? As Pandora was in the Alpha Centauri system, it's about three years for a message to be sent back, so are we looking at 9 years?

I don't think the issue of how long it was that Grace was waiting comes in to play at all. The avatars were expensive, and only Jake Sully could drive that one, being a genetic identical twin to his brother. The corporation saw a means of salvaging the cost of growing the avatar; Grace was welcome to accept Jake or go without. And when she heard how he had no time training before arriving on Pandora, she was ready to abort Jake driving the avatar then and there; it was the corporation who insisted on going forward. They wanted to get something out of their investment. Grace already saw it as a lost cause; Sully had to convince her otherwise over time.

You're thinking too hard. This movie wasn't made for that level of intelligence

heh.
that too.
but I still stand by the above.

[Loredoctor]

Menolly, there were other avatars - a whole lot of them (as seen when Jake escapes the compound at the start) - that they could have used. Six years is a hell of a long time to wait for someone when they could have used any of the others.

Look, at the end of the day it's not a big issue, and Rigel is correct: Avatar is not meant to be taken seriously or intelligently. I gather that Grace did what she was normally doing - research.

[matrixman]

It's a no-brainer that I'll be getting the movie on blu-ray. The only question I have is: will I need to buy a new machine to play blu-ray 3D?

New TVs will soon be able to do 3D at home. The HDMI spec 1.4a--which includes 3d--has been finalized and announced. And I think you'll need a new Blu-ray player, too.

The Blu-ray 3D specification is also designed to allow PS3 game consoles to playback Blu-ray 3D content in 3D. Additionally, the specification supports playback of 2D discs in forthcoming 3D
players and can enable 2D playback of Blu-ray 3D discs on the large installed base of Blu-ray Disc players currently in homes around the world.

link

From the press release, it seems to imply that PS3 consoles will be able to play 3D content, but I'm not sure if that means *new* PS3s, or the ones currently on the market. But then it says that 3D discs will work in 2D players, but only at 2D playback.

All I know is that I'm not replacing my entire system after a mere two years simply so I can have this new gimmick. Prices will have to come down substantially before I'll bite. Those of you who have waited this long to jump into HDTV will benefit the most.

Thanks for the info!
I wouldn't want to fork over a small fortune just for the sake of one movie either. Being able to watch 3D blu-ray for "free" was a nice thought while it lasted.

No need for apologies, Matrix. My point was people liking or not liking a film is neither negative or positive! But then we're getting into the high, aerial fields of semantics...and maybe other stuff.

I'd be the last person to want to argue semantics with you, man.

[wayfriend]

I finally saw this movie a couple of weeks ago now, the IMAX 3D way.

It's an epic movie. And, yes, I will justify that comment.

First off, I want to say that I found it to be a very beautiful movie, beautiful in a physical way. And it choked me up at a few points, something that generally doesn't happen to me until I've seen a movie a few times, when I understand it more.

As for the plot being unimaginitive: I think that there's only two good ways to tell a story in a movie. You can tell a new story which uses familiar elements. Or you can tell a familiar story which uses novel elements. Avatar is clearly in the latter category. It provides so much mind candy that I think it would be unfathomable if the story at least wasn't grounded in familiar themes.

As for the notion that Avatar is loaded with some sort of message about some group of people or another ...

Avatar, like Star Wars, is one of those movies that succeeds as both a fantasy as well as science fiction. Characters like Colonol Quarich and Administrator Selfridge and Dr. Augustine are charicatures of all of us, or one aspect of all of us. They are human demiurges manifested in the flesh and acting out their parts. That's fantasy in the sense that Donaldson has always argued. And Jake Sully is the everyman caught in the middle and struggling to find the right balance. In the end, he rejects the familar but bad to embrace the unfamiliar but good, an act of courage we can dare to emulate someday.

Like The Lord of the Rings, Avatar is replete with what Tolkien calls "applicability". While it's not about any specific person or group in the real world, the story resonates with us in such a way that we can't help but see the parallels in the world at large. We mistakenly think that the movie is about them, but in reality the movie is about deep and important things, and we cannot help but see these deep and important things all around us once the movie has taught us how to see them.

And it's the stories success that it opens our eyes, even for just a while..

And that's why it's epic. Because it's about important things, and it's told in a way that inarguably resonates with us. The fact that it's a fantasy only makes the argument conclusive, if you believe Donaldson.

[Rigel]

Avatar, like Star Wars, is one of those movies that succeeds as both a fantasy as well as science fiction.

I've never heard Star Wars described as Science Fiction except by people who don't like Science Fiction.

And that's why it's epic. Because it's about important things, and it's told in a way that inarguably resonates with us.

I'm glad you liked it; personally I can't see how it resonates with people (it practically made me gag), but hey, different strokes for different folks.

[Worm of Despite]

I dunno, dissecting this movie is like writing a thesis on Braveheart (which I think was a much, much better Hollywood epic). Or writing the formal artistic qualities of a doorknob. Great--the story means this, means that. Didn't stop it from being bland and been-there-done-that, and no amount of "eye candy" will save that or excuse it. I think story comes first, just like a good-looking game means nothing unless it plays fun (and the Avatar video game is abysmal, I hear, despite being 3D; big woop).

I've seen movies that are beautiful aesthetically, feel 80,000 times more atmospheric (My Neighbor Totoro, for example, which I watched last night; it's a kid's movie), and carry stories that Avatar could only pine for. Most importantly--I've seen simple, familiar elements used much more inventively. Seven Samurai, for instance--brilliantly done but simple, old-as-the-hills story. A lot of revenge stories are also done great. You see 'em all the time. Could be its own genre, but many stand out. Not because they're "familiar elements", but what they do with them. I don't think Avatar did anything with its familiar elements.

As far as bringing Saint SRD into this--I don't think he'd ever write a story like Avatar's, not in a million years; and that's why I read him. The Land was much more engaging than a CGI forest, never mind the characters.

[Kil Tyme]

I can't recall if I left my opinion here; haven't looked back, but I think it would have been a much more interesting movie, even with the same "Dances with Wolves" storyline, IF the smurfs were instead ugly 5 eyed, 6 tenticaled, smelly glob critters, but still had the same compassion for the Keebler Elf Tree, the planet and the other critters as did the smurfs. Would Jake become as enamored with that ugly race as he did with the pretty blue race in this film? Would he have fallen in love? Yes to first and no to second probably, but he might have fought as hard against the military chaps. The reason he fought against his own kind in the end was his love of smurfette and the others and maybe a bit of the elf tree environs, too. Now, had he done the same just so the smelly, 6 eyed, but oh so mystic globs could save their tree, without introducing a love interest globette into the film and his learning to ignore his own revulsion to those ugly but friendly globs, I think it would have been a much much more facinating story of ethics than this one of some ethics, but mostly horneyness.

[finn]

KT: would seriously recommend the Uplift stories by Davin Brinn!

Lore: I think that substitution of Jake for his brother is catalytic in bringing about the development of the plot-line. Jakes brother would have likely been conformant to the processes and methods as where and probably would not have been as adventurous or as attuned to the combatativeness, as Jake. Despite being twins they clearly followed different paths.

As for the movie today (ie Oscar day), I saw the Hurt Locker yesterday and it was an impressive movie but not one I'd call epic, not one I'd call especially thought provoking or one that had profound social significance. It was a damned good movie only. Avata on the other hand was ground-breaking, a visual feast (pretty important in a movie imo) and was truly epic (agreeing here not stealing thunder Wayfriend ).

I'd go with Avatar for those reasons and that it alone is a clear blockbuster and the biggest and most significant movie event of the year.....surely that's a pretty good reason for getting best picture.

[Worm of Despite]

I'd go with Avatar for those reasons and that it alone is a clear blockbuster and the biggest and most significant movie event of the year.....surely that's a pretty good reason for getting best picture.

Usually being a blockbuster doesn't mean it has any actual artistic integrity or depth. Ask Jerry Bruckheimer. I'm also wondering what "significant" means here. Significant how? Just because it sold the most seats?

And what's "epic", exactly? I know it's the new easy word to say something is great and big. Perhaps Avatar would be even more socially significant had it shown not one jungle planet but, gasp, two and you get to watch their stories unfold on the right and left side of the screen, respectively. That would've been much more socially significant and epic.

Pearl Harbor was pretty epic too. But what if they showed on one side of the screen the Japanese preparing. Then in the middle screen Germans fighting in Stalingrad--THEN super-slow-mo Zack Snyder-style fighting on Pearl Harbor itself. With Japanese dual-wielding giant samurai swords dipped in the blood of 1000 warriors. Now that would be epic. That would be the best, most significant picture of all time.

[Montresor]

I'd go with Avatar for those reasons and that it alone is a clear blockbuster and the biggest and most significant movie event of the year.....surely that's a pretty good reason for getting best picture.

I can't agree with that at all. If you mean it's the most significant film because it's made the most money or it's the most popular, that's a very bad precedent for giving an artistic achievement award. If you mean it's the most significant because of the technology it uses, that's why they have effects-based awards.

I have seen a lot of films this year which were far better pieces of cinema than Avatar. Excluding the technology, I can't think of another category in which Avatar hasn't been beaten hands-down by other films I have seen in the last 365 days.

It's an entertaining film, but there are many of those. Heck, the low-budget Australian film The Horseman left a greater impact on me than Avatar, but no-one's even heard of it.

Pearl Harbor was pretty epic too. But what if they showed on one side of the screen the Japanese preparing. Then in the middle screen Germans fighting in Stalingrad--THEN super-slow-mo Zack Snyder-style fighting on Pearl Harbor itself. With Japanese dual-wielding giant samurai swords dipped in the blood of 1000 warriors. Now that would be epic. That would be the best, most significant picture of all time.

[Zarathustra]

On the issue of applicability vs allegory, we're talking about a movie that has "Unobtainium" as its macguffin. It had characters say things like, "shock and awe." That's not even trying to be subtle. It very clearly had an intentional message. This is different from what Tolkien meant by the term "applicability." If Sauron's orcs wore swastikas and goosestepped through Middle Earth, then perhaps there would be a parellel here, but it would clearly have dipped into allegory at that point. Unobtainium isn't like mithril or The One Ring. It's not something created for the sake of its existence in the fantasy world for which it exists. Rather, it's purely symbolic, and can't even be taken seriously as a real substance in Jake Sully's world.

Someone with more time could possibly find better examples, but a quick Wikipedia search revealed this:

Cameron acknowledges that Avatar implicitly criticizes America's role in the Iraq War and the impersonal nature of mechanized warfare in general.[76] In reference to the use of the term shock and awe in the film, Cameron said, "We know what it feels like to launch the missiles. We don't know what it feels like for them to land on our home soil, not in America."