I don't understand the thinking that it's not real. Linden experienced the whole "Land" thing. She still existed after Covenant died, therefore she wasn't his hallucination. Unless you want to believe that somehow they magically shared the same dream, and therefore have decided that TC doesn't (didn't) live in anything like the real world.
Or maybe you're saying that TC never really died...he's still hallucinating Linden's existence...or maybe he thinks he IS Linden...Maybe he has a split personality and is living his life as a woman now.
Where is the proof that the Land is real?
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[Syl]
- Unfettered One
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As far as we know it, what's more likely: two people sharing a hallucination (or a mass hallucination if you count Foul's mob) or two people being magically transported to a synaesthesia-inducing fantasy realm with altered laws of physics, all while leaving their bodies intact in real time?
My point is, the Land is not real. Not in the sense that you could go to your local travel agency and book a flight to it. Thinking of it as a purely physical construct in which the story takes place is taking away a lot of the meaning, imo. Then again, so does saying it's strictly an illusion of the mind.
It reminds me of a zen quote I can't remember exactly...
[Mind and body. Not one. Not separate either.]
Even this world we look at isn't real how we think of it. Forget the fact that our means of experiencing the universe is limited (only being able to see and hear a very small segment of the EM spectrum, microsecond delay between an event and the actual perception of it, etc.). We don't really understand what we see, and we often only see what we expect. It's how Copperfield and Blaine make money.
So Donaldson has it right. Real or not real doesn't really matter. Not in the Chronicles, and not in real life. What matters is how you internalize what you see, what you make it mean to you. Relativity is everything, and in that respect, it's what truly makes an author like Donaldson amazing. He can take a personal vision, share it with us, a million people with a million different internal worlds, and it still means something.
My point is, the Land is not real. Not in the sense that you could go to your local travel agency and book a flight to it. Thinking of it as a purely physical construct in which the story takes place is taking away a lot of the meaning, imo. Then again, so does saying it's strictly an illusion of the mind.
It reminds me of a zen quote I can't remember exactly...
[Mind and body. Not one. Not separate either.]
Even this world we look at isn't real how we think of it. Forget the fact that our means of experiencing the universe is limited (only being able to see and hear a very small segment of the EM spectrum, microsecond delay between an event and the actual perception of it, etc.). We don't really understand what we see, and we often only see what we expect. It's how Copperfield and Blaine make money.
So Donaldson has it right. Real or not real doesn't really matter. Not in the Chronicles, and not in real life. What matters is how you internalize what you see, what you make it mean to you. Relativity is everything, and in that respect, it's what truly makes an author like Donaldson amazing. He can take a personal vision, share it with us, a million people with a million different internal worlds, and it still means something.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
Exactly, and I hope that this is why the "face value" evidence that the Land is "real" in the later books is just SRDs way of explicitly saying (as TC comes to terms with) that it doesnt matter whether its real or not, its how you interpret and deal with what you perceive that is important.
I still like the idea that from an external point of view looking in as though TC "really" existed, that he and we still do not know if he really went off into some kind of fantasy land or not, plus, as I said, there is just so much allegorical and David Lynchian symbolism in the whole story it's untrue (I forgot to mention the bit where TC burns his latest novel, pretty strange that at that point, the next time he "returns" to the Land, it's all messed up, burned up if you will.)
I am quite happy with that angle despite the obvious difficulties with some of the plot lines.
I still like the idea that from an external point of view looking in as though TC "really" existed, that he and we still do not know if he really went off into some kind of fantasy land or not, plus, as I said, there is just so much allegorical and David Lynchian symbolism in the whole story it's untrue (I forgot to mention the bit where TC burns his latest novel, pretty strange that at that point, the next time he "returns" to the Land, it's all messed up, burned up if you will.)
I am quite happy with that angle despite the obvious difficulties with some of the plot lines.
well, since both situations are equally impossible and this book does vaguely resemble what most people would call "fantasy"
"My point is, the Land is not real. Not in the sense that you could go to your local travel agency and book a flight to it."
Just because you can't go somewhere any time you damn well please doesn't make something nonexistant. I can't book a flight to Area 51 either, but that doesn't mean it's a figment of my imagination.
My point is, it's real enough. If it can affect more people than just TC, then it doesn't just exist in TC's head. The science of whether it physically exists or merely exists in some kind of phantom dimension where people who have been hit on the head can send their spirit is moot. It's as real as it needs to be to qualify according to my definition that it is, in fact, "real."
At least within the series...I'm not saying that I myself can have some magical adventures there sometime in the future.
"My point is, the Land is not real. Not in the sense that you could go to your local travel agency and book a flight to it."
Just because you can't go somewhere any time you damn well please doesn't make something nonexistant. I can't book a flight to Area 51 either, but that doesn't mean it's a figment of my imagination.
My point is, it's real enough. If it can affect more people than just TC, then it doesn't just exist in TC's head. The science of whether it physically exists or merely exists in some kind of phantom dimension where people who have been hit on the head can send their spirit is moot. It's as real as it needs to be to qualify according to my definition that it is, in fact, "real."
At least within the series...I'm not saying that I myself can have some magical adventures there sometime in the future.
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Skyweir
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lol .. the book is a fictional adventure so imho drawing parallels to what is reasonably expected in reality is kinda futile ..
but it doesnt mean it has to be illogical .. even in fantasy there is logic!
to me it isnt logical that TC and LA share a hallucinogenic experience .. how so?? there is no mention of narcotics - no mention of any connection that may lend itself towards them sharing a dream of this complexity and nature.
To me the Land is real .. and theis compelling evidence to this end imho 
We have discussed this in earlier discussions and it always comes back to 2 camps .. you either believe in the reality of the Land .. or you dont! LOL
pretty amazing assessment right there LOL
but to me at the end of the day .. the "dont believe" camp .. have little evidence to persuade my mind that the Land is not real .. and the "do believe" camp .. of which i just happen to align myself with LOL .. have not only the above mentioned anomaly .. but a range of other factors that indicate existential reality as opposed to imagined existence.
TC within the context of a fictional work of fantasy .. is translated not in form but in substance to an alternate reality .. "the Land"
HT is also mis-translated in a summoning gone awry .. and TC meets another from his world in this alternate reality - but there is no corroborating evidence in TC's home world to support HT's existence there!! regrettably ..
but LA .. yet another member of TC's world .. whom he actually meets in his world prior to their mutual translation .. not in form but in substance to the Land .. and her presence in this same alternate reality is supported by her return from being there to TC and LA's shared reality/origin.
I find it insupportable that this entire sequence of events was the product of a shared dream experience or some other rationalised explanation. This is a work of fantasy .. and travelling from one reality to others i a fantasy concept ..
a concept that is not only a fantasy concept in kind actually .. but lol .. in this case .. it makes sense that the Land exists as an alternate reality ..
If it was just a shared dream experience/sequence even .. then there would be no physical interchange .. and what i mentioned above would presumably be illogical and impossible to explain away ..
just my two cents on the matter :p
but it doesnt mean it has to be illogical .. even in fantasy there is logic!
to me it isnt logical that TC and LA share a hallucinogenic experience .. how so?? there is no mention of narcotics - no mention of any connection that may lend itself towards them sharing a dream of this complexity and nature.
To me the Land is real .. and the
Spoiler
ring in the possession of LA at the end of WGW
We have discussed this in earlier discussions and it always comes back to 2 camps .. you either believe in the reality of the Land .. or you dont! LOL
pretty amazing assessment right there
LOLbut to me at the end of the day .. the "dont believe" camp .. have little evidence to persuade my mind that the Land is not real .. and the "do believe" camp .. of which i just happen to align myself with
LOL .. have not only the above mentioned anomaly .. but a range of other factors that indicate existential reality as opposed to imagined existence.TC within the context of a fictional work of fantasy .. is translated not in form but in substance to an alternate reality .. "the Land"
HT is also mis-translated in a summoning gone awry .. and TC meets another from his world in this alternate reality - but there is no corroborating evidence in TC's home world to support HT's existence there!! regrettably ..
but LA .. yet another member of TC's world .. whom he actually meets in his world prior to their mutual translation .. not in form but in substance to the Land .. and her presence in this same alternate reality is supported by her return from being there to TC and LA's shared reality/origin.
I find it insupportable that this entire sequence of events was the product of a shared dream experience or some other rationalised explanation. This is a work of fantasy .. and travelling from one reality to others i a fantasy concept ..
a concept that is not only a fantasy concept in kind actually .. but lol .. in this case .. it makes sense that the Land exists as an alternate reality ..
If it was just a shared dream experience/sequence even .. then there would be no physical interchange .. and what i mentioned above would presumably be illogical and impossible to explain away ..
Spoiler
the ring exchange
:p
keep smiling
'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!'
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[Syl]
- Unfettered One
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Well, if we all draw our own definitions and say (our own) preconceived notions on genre rule, then sure, you can prove anything you want. :p
The situation is not much different from the shamanic state of consciousness experienced by shamans from all areas of the world. In a dream state, sometimes induced by drugs, plain mental effort, stress, or even just spontaneously, but usually by trance drumming, the shaman enters a world (usually through a tunnel in the ground, going into the underworld, but often just "out of body" in our world) of intense sensory activity. The experience is so real to them that almost all give it the same importance, if not more, as they do normal reality. The similarities of the experience between shamans worlds and ages apart is remarkable.
So is their alternate plane of reality real? If it is, there is something dramatically unreal about the world we think we live in. Is the very realistic world of lucid dreamers real? Some oneironauts even claim to be able to communicate to others in dreams. That doesn't negate the fact that they're dreaming.
The best we can say is that all these alternate realities are virtual. They have the properties of reality, but they aren't real. You can't turn off the system (dreamer) and bring a piece back with you.
Like I said, though, we can't even trust this reality, so what does it matter exactly, if we can prove empirically that something is real (or those of us who think they can prove it )? If you believe it's real, and you're happy with it, good on ya. Myself, however, I say there is no spoon.
The situation is not much different from the shamanic state of consciousness experienced by shamans from all areas of the world. In a dream state, sometimes induced by drugs, plain mental effort, stress, or even just spontaneously, but usually by trance drumming, the shaman enters a world (usually through a tunnel in the ground, going into the underworld, but often just "out of body" in our world) of intense sensory activity. The experience is so real to them that almost all give it the same importance, if not more, as they do normal reality. The similarities of the experience between shamans worlds and ages apart is remarkable.
So is their alternate plane of reality real? If it is, there is something dramatically unreal about the world we think we live in. Is the very realistic world of lucid dreamers real? Some oneironauts even claim to be able to communicate to others in dreams. That doesn't negate the fact that they're dreaming.
The best we can say is that all these alternate realities are virtual. They have the properties of reality, but they aren't real. You can't turn off the system (dreamer) and bring a piece back with you.
Like I said, though, we can't even trust this reality, so what does it matter exactly, if we can prove empirically that something is real (or those of us who think they can prove it
)? If you believe it's real, and you're happy with it, good on ya. Myself, however, I say there is no spoon."It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
It's been a long time since I read these books (I'm starting again now to prepare for this fall 
)
Was it ever mentioned anywhere if TC tried to look up whether Hile Troy was real or not? He had enough information about Hile Troy to do so once he got back to his world, and for some reason I thought it was mentioned in the 2nd Chronicles, but I can't remember for sure.
It may be that I've seen this speculated somewhere else and am remembering that.
)Was it ever mentioned anywhere if TC tried to look up whether Hile Troy was real or not? He had enough information about Hile Troy to do so once he got back to his world, and for some reason I thought it was mentioned in the 2nd Chronicles, but I can't remember for sure.
It may be that I've seen this speculated somewhere else and am remembering that.
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[Syl]
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From Chapter One of TPTP.
"Mr. Covenant?" a bland, insinuating voice said. "I'm Major Rolle. We're having trouble locating the person you wish to speak to. This is a large department -- you understand. Could you tell me more about him?"
"His name is Hile Troy. He works in one of your think tanks. He's blind." The words trembled between Covenant's lips as if he were freezing.
"Blind, you say? Mr. Covenant, you mentioned an accident. Can you tell me what happened to this Hile Troy?"
"Just let me talk to him. Is he there or not?"
The major hesitated, then said, "Mr. Covenant, we have no blind men in this department. Could you give me the source of your information? I'm afraid you're the victim of -- "
TC did try to contact HT in TPTP, but was unsuccessful.
Lots of valid comments above and it is true that we're always going to have two camps on this subject, so I suggest that we agree to disagree. Although the comment that one cannot go to a travel agent and book passage on a plane to the Land was asinine.
Lots of valid comments above and it is true that we're always going to have two camps on this subject, so I suggest that we agree to disagree. Although the comment that one cannot go to a travel agent and book passage on a plane to the Land was asinine.