Is the New Staff of Law the Old Staff of Law

[SerScot]

We've never heard, beyond the bare bones, the story of the original Staff of Laws' creation. With the existence of Ceasures could the new Staff of Law be the Old Staff of Law? Perhaps at some point in the series the New staff will be translated back in time and placed upon the Isle of the One Tree for Berek to find?

[wayfriend]

We've never heard, beyond the bare bones, the story of the original Staff of Laws' creation. With the existence of Ceasures could the new Staff of Law be the Old Staff of Law? Perhaps at some point in the series the New staff will be translated back in time and placed upon the Isle of the One Tree for Berek to find?

This has been a theory that has been posted several times here in the FR forum. For example, this thread, and this thread. There are others. (This is not a complaint about starting a new thread, just a pointer to existing threads you might find interesting.)

Personally, I disbelieve, if only because of the branch of the One Tree that was lopped off.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I need little excuse to post my ideas several times so here goes:

The "new" Staff of Law will be returned to where the Old was originally cut from. All the runes and blackness will be cleaned off during the transfer.
This will in turn put the Worm back to sleep.

[SerScot]

Wayfriend,

My thought exactly. We know Berek came to the One Tree, passed the Guardian, and lopped off a branch.

What purposes is served in the story by having Berek mysteriously do all that and not create a Staff? What purpose is served by having the new Staff become the old Staff?

My point above is that we don't have a firm narrative about Berek's creation of the "original" Staff of Law. That means we don't know what happened on Berek's original quest for the One Tree. I'm not sure that there was a "Guardian" for the One Tree before the Theomach took up that role.

The point about the dark patena on the Staff is well taken. How is the original staff described?

[ninjaboy]

It's true.. We just have 'myths' about the origin of the staff, and we should be wise enough to know that the reality of an event can be portrayed very differently years later.

But some questions.. The Staff of Law is essentially an Elohim and, well Vain. They don't really 'belong' as a part of the One Tree, IMHO. And Vain.. Well he's the final product of the Demondim, essentially, via the Viles and Ur-Viles in a process taking thousands of years, and he's going to go back in time to when his makers themselves may not even have been made yet? I'm not 100% sure of the time line involved, but that's some forward planning!!! OK and Findail. If the role of the Staff of Law will be to put the worm back to sleep, and he, in his role as Staff of Law will see to that, why is Infelice now a new Appointed - isn't she appointed to stopping the Worm now? Or am I way off..

And I do believe a Staff of Law would be most helpful after the worm's been subdued (should that be the case) to clean up the huge mess that the Land will find itself in.

[High Lord Tolkien]

It's true.. We just have 'myths' about the origin of the staff, and we should be wise enough to know that the reality of an event can be portrayed very differently years later.

But some questions.. The Staff of Law is essentially an Elohim and, well Vain. They don't really 'belong' as a part of the One Tree, IMHO. And Vain.. Well he's the final product of the Demondim, essentially, via the Viles and Ur-Viles in a process taking thousands of years, and he's going to go back in time to when his makers themselves may not even have been made yet? I'm not 100% sure of the time line involved, but that's some forward planning!!! OK and Findail. If the role of the Staff of Law will be to put the worm back to sleep, and he, in his role as Staff of Law will see to that, why is Infelice now a new Appointed - isn't she appointed to stopping the Worm now? Or am I way off..

Remember it's all just guesses.
But Vain was created for the purpose of becoming the new Staff. There doesn't have to be any further purpose than that. The fact that it/he could be used for an additional purpose after that isn't a big deal. And why does it/he have to go back in time anyway?
The Worm is awake in the present, if Linden's quest is to replace the missing piece with the New Staff she doesn't have to go back in time.
Findail is gone. He's the new Staff. Unless the Staff is broken/unmade Vain and Findail aren't coming back.

[aliantha]

Didn't the Theomach defeat/subdue an Elohim who was the first Guardian of the One Tree? I thought I read something about the Elohim being the One Tree's first guardians.

[Vraith]

Didn't the Theomach defeat/subdue an Elohim who was the first Guardian of the One Tree? I thought I read something about the Elohim being the One Tree's first guardians.

That is so, IIRC...and I speculate that the Theomach actually became guardian at the time of the Berek incident at the One Tree.

I don't think the new and old are the same...I don't even think the purpose is the same: the first was tied to the Law of the Land...the new one is for the Law of the world that comes after.
I propose [just for fun, it probably won't come to anything] a difference in kind, as well: the first was essentially a product of the current world's nature/existence, the second will be foundational to the nature/existence of the next world.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Didn't the Theomach defeat/subdue an Elohim who was the first Guardian of the One Tree? I thought I read something about the Elohim being the One Tree's first guardians.

Donaldson admits he screwed that up between volumes.
Or perhaps he was deflecting us away from something.

[SerScot]

I'd still like to know what the Elohim are. They appear to be angelic in power yet attempt to be above the affairs of the Earth. Their existence is somehow tied to the existence of the Earth hence their fear of the Worm and the destruction of the Arch of Time. That being the case why haven't they attempted to oppose the Despiser more directly?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'd still like to know what the Elohim are. They appear to be angelic in power yet attempt to be above the affairs of the Earth. Their existence is somehow tied to the existence of the Earth hence their fear of the Worm and the destruction of the Arch of Time. That being the case why haven't they attempted to oppose the Despiser more directly?

To what end?
Foul is beyond Earthpower.
Otherwise the Word of Command would have been used against him long ago.
And the Elohim, except for a few time that we know of, just don't care until the Earth is threatened.
Until WM, Foul was just a localized menace.

[wayfriend]

If the role of the Staff of Law will be to put the worm back to sleep

I think it's a big assumption to assume that the worm will be put back to sleep. But, at the end of FR, Felice's comment is that the magick of the Elohim could do that. Well, if you interpret "answer" to mean "put back to sleep".

That being the case why haven't they attempted to oppose the Despiser more directly?

They also have this "thing" where they don't intervene if someone like Covenant, Linden, an Insequent, or any one else seems capable of handling the problem on their own. For example, they didn't appear to stop Roger because the Theomach and Linden had 'it covered'.

[SerScot]

HLT, WF,

I suppose I simply wonder why they don't even try. It seems pretty obvious that since the Sunbane era Foul has been attempting to break free from his prison. It would seem the Elohim might, directly or indirectly, want to attempt to prevent the destruction of the Arch of Time or the awakening of the Worm of the World's End.

[wayfriend]

I think at first Donaldson had to explain why, if there were Elohim, they didn't show up in the first Chronicles and help out.

But, in story, I think it has to do with the fact that the Elohim need some form of balance or else there is the implausibility of their not simpling taking over the world and rule it. By having them be aloof and self-centered to the nth degree, this is achieved. The only thing keeping the Elohim from ruling is that they don't want to. So now they are plausible in the story.

Of course, if they could handle Lord Foul, the Land would not need a savior from another world, and hence there'd be no story. Or else at least no plausible one.

This gives them an odd relationship to said saviors. They were built to be sufficient for everything, then Foul came along. They can't really handle being insufficient very well. And, being aloof and self-centered, what they do about it isn't always so nice. In many ways, they are acting out of their comfort zone.

I have a lot of respect for the Elohim. Donaldson works so hard to give them the appearance of despicability, but underneath they are the Creator's appointed caretakers.

[Vraith]

I agree with a lot of that...but I think you may have too much sympathy for the Elohim [and I probably have too little...and I don't think the creator appointed them, but no matter].

They probably would have been sufficient to everything, which for the most part would have meant letting everything else live and die and do what the hell it wants, if not for LF and the use he can make of others and the assorted banes...but so what? They have known, from the beginning, they were unable to deal with LF and didn't give a damn if it didn't touch them. That's beyond arrogance/self-centeredness, especially since they have visions of the future and awareness that they are flawed.
I will sympathize with them the moment they say "We were wrong!" Instead of "Obey us, you stupid peons!"
Like many old aristocracies, they missed the moment when their needs exceeded their power, and they refuse to adjust to cooperation/dependence on the "lower classes."

[Relayer]

I will sympathize with them the moment they say "We were wrong!" Instead of "Obey us, you stupid peons!"
Like many old aristocracies, they missed the moment when their needs exceeded their power, and they refuse to adjust to cooperation/dependence on the "lower classes."

Interesting that this description also applies to the Masters. It'll be interesting to see what Donaldson does with them and how that contrasts with the Elohim.

[SerScot]

Keeping people ignorant is never a good thing. I think that's Donaldson's point with the "Masters."

[wayfriend]

Donaldson has clearly taken the route that we, as humans, can't empathize with the Elohim. The are beyond us. They aren't remotely human, they are not mortal, and they exist, or have existed, on a higher plane than we could know. Therefore, they are inscrutible: we can't imagine how they view the world, or what they are thinking. Therefore, we can't empathize with them.

Add to this the fact that the Elohim are reclusive, so that they leave the people of the world free to make choices; and are self-contemplative, because they are stuck on an island doing almost nothing; and are arrogant, because they are superior to everyone and have no urge to hide it.

Therefore, their actions can only seem cruel and selfish to us.

Remember, the Elohim did contribute one of their number for a new Staff. (Findail might not have liked it, and tried to evade it, but that was what he was lined up to do.) The Elohim did cap the fire. The Elohim did try to avoid rousing the Worm. The Elohim did warn the people of the Land of the Half-hand.

So beyond the seeming cruelty and seeming selfishness, they do strive to save the Earth, and save it as well.

And, as for whether the Elohim are the Creator's appointed caretakers, I'll quote myself from my Tale of Two Cosmologies thread:

And, as seems likely, if the Worm is also the Würd of the Earth, and the Elohim are also the Würd of the Earth, then the Elohim are much more involved with the Arch of Time than we have seen to date. I cannot help thinking of the Elohimfest, and that the Elohim are the stars, caught in the Wounded Rainbow, devoured by the Worm, and trapped in the Arch; children of the Creator, living peoples of the heavens, and direct offspring of creation. By uniting the Worm and the Arch, we also unite the Elohim with the Creator.

Stars, she had heard, were the bright children of the world's birth, the glad offspring of the Creator, trapped inadvertently in the heavens by the same binding that had imprisoned the Despiser. They could only be set free, restored to their infinite home, by the severing of Time. Hence their crystalline keening: they mourned for the lost grandeur of eternity.

[SerScot]

Wayfriend,

Very intereseting. I wonder if Donaldson will attempt to explain the Elohim's relationship with the Creator and Creation? If he does that's dangerous territory to tread. Take away too much of the mystery and the extrodinary will seem mundane. Though I'd love to have an absolute explaination for what's going on removing too much of the mystery is dangerous for a writer.

[Ur Dead]

I'm in the camp that the new staff will not become the old staff.

There is a possiblility, but the nagging paradox of the staff's metal heels always crops up. They were firmly attached to Vain. (he made sure of that) And the fusion of Vain and Findial probably bonded the new staff to the heels. Where nothing short of a destruction of Time would release them.
So Linden directly giving the new staff to Berek as the old staff, sets up the issue of the metal heels that were never made from material that never existed in the first place. They have to be made of some special metal, it took a Wild Magic blast from TC in TPTP and then survived Wild Magic again when it was to become a part of the new staff.


On the other hand:
Maybe they're made from what the AoT is made from.
But then again it become an item of power that the Old and New Lords fail to reconize or use. Kevin should have seen the power in it and his descreation would have been a moot point. Or he did see the power and tried to use it but never had the time to master the lore and used it when he met Foul. (that would explain when he died, he saw that Foul wasn't destroyed but reduced. A time lore. Maybe thats why he howled when he died. More of depair than anger. He saw the outcome of his actions factions of a sec before he perished.)