Mhoram's kindness and morality

[shadowbinding shoe]

I never noticed until a recent read of the Chronicles that in the IllEarth War, when Thomas Covenant demands to be sent back to his own world he is told that the Lords don't know how to do that. All they figured so far from Kevin's Lore is how to Summon someone, not how to release him back.

But in the next book when Covenant is Summoned by Mhoram to the Land, Mhoram relents to Thomas' pleas and is able to send him back.

Obviously the Lords discovered new abilities in Kevin's Wards in the 8 years that passed between the two books. But one would assume they gave precedence to knowledge that could help them fight Lord Foul. And yet they have obviously dedicated time and effort to discover how to send someone back from the Land, an ability that if anything diminishes their chances against Lord Foul.

I think it's very likely that after Mhoram saw Thomas' anguish at his banishment (at a crucial moment to him) from his own world Mhoram felt committed to learn how to release Thomas before he would summon him again to the Land.

[Horizonscan]

It's been a while since I read it but, as far as I recall, TC wasn't actually properly summoned by Mhoram in TPTP. Wasn't he sort of caught between both worlds? So, you could argue that Mhoram just chose not to complete the summoning rather than really sending him back. Which isn't quite the same thing.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It's been a while since I read it but, as far as I recall, TC wasn't actually properly summoned by Mhoram in TPTP. Wasn't he sort of caught between both worlds? So, you could argue that Mhoram just chose not to complete the summoning rather than really sending him back. Which isn't quite the same thing.

Be true, Unbeliever- Answer the call. Be true.

Covenant had partially materialized, he seems to have been capable of seeing into both Earths at this point. And then there was this -

But the apparition came no closer, did not incarnate itself. Covenant remained on the verge of physical presence; he refused to cross over.

...he fought the completion of his summoning...He resisted as if the Lords were coercing him into a vat of acid and virulent horror.

But at the same time, it was necessary for Mhoram to release Covenant from the Summoning before he could return to his own Earth.

No one may be compelled to fight the Despiser. He is resisted willingly, or not at all. Unbeliever, I release you.

[wayfriend]

Covenant was caught between both worlds, as Horizonscan says, because he was able to resist being summoned. Mhoram saw this. So of course he could surmise that, if the Lords stopped their summoning efforts, Covenant's resistance would be enough to cause the whole process to fail. Having failed, Covenant was unsummoned.

What is more remarkable is Covenant's ability to resist in the first place. It arises, of course, from his passion. That girl had to be saved! Covenant is becoming a person who can take his passion and use it constructively. And we get a clue to the link between passion and power.

[jackgiantkiller]

Doesnt Mhorme tell TC how to resist the summerning himself? UR the white gold

[shadowbinding shoe]

Covenant was caught between both worlds, as Horizonscan says, because he was able to resist being summoned. Mhoram saw this. So of course he could surmise that, if the Lords stopped their summoning efforts, Covenant's resistance would be enough to cause the whole process to fail. Having failed, Covenant was unsummoned.

What is more remarkable is Covenant's ability to resist in the first place. It arises, of course, from his passion. That girl had to be saved! Covenant is becoming a person who can take his passion and use it constructively. And we get a clue to the link between passion and power.

Are we sure that it's all due to Covenant's resistance? He was passionate about being there for his wife too, not just about helping helpless children. Covenant's reactions are most probably very important but I still hold that the difference in character between Mhoram and Elena is significant as well.

Elena is prone to see things in absolutes while Mhoram on the other hand is filled with self doubts and recriminations. Elena sees the big picture and the ideals while Mhoram has his eyes focused on the human beings and the flaws.

So when Elena summoned Covenant to the Land she left him little chance to resist but when Mhoram summoned him he gave him the room needed for it. Whether intentionally or by their differing nature the summoning were different from one another.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Doesnt Mhorme tell TC how to resist the summerning himself? UR the white gold

That would be the secret to wielding white wild magic gold, and also the secret to denying the Summoning. It is the key to everything.

[Horizonscan]

Covenant was caught between both worlds, as Horizonscan says, because he was able to resist being summoned. Mhoram saw this. So of course he could surmise that, if the Lords stopped their summoning efforts, Covenant's resistance would be enough to cause the whole process to fail. Having failed, Covenant was unsummoned.

What is more remarkable is Covenant's ability to resist in the first place. It arises, of course, from his passion. That girl had to be saved! Covenant is becoming a person who can take his passion and use it constructively. And we get a clue to the link between passion and power.

Are we sure that it's all due to Covenant's resistance? He was passionate about being there for his wife too, not just about helping helpless children. Covenant's reactions are most probably very important but I still hold that the difference in character between Mhoram and Elena is significant as well.

Elena is prone to see things in absolutes while Mhoram on the other hand is filled with self doubts and recriminations. Elena sees the big picture and the ideals while Mhoram has his eyes focused on the human beings and the flaws.

So when Elena summoned Covenant to the Land she left him little chance to resist but when Mhoram summoned him he gave him the room needed for it. Whether intentionally or by their differing nature the summoning were different from one another.

Another difference between the two summonings is the presence of the Staff of Law. As I recall, Mhoram wasn't certain that Covenant could be summoned at all without the Staff. Perhaps that difference made the summoning easier for him to resist?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Covenant was caught between both worlds, as Horizonscan says, because he was able to resist being summoned. Mhoram saw this. So of course he could surmise that, if the Lords stopped their summoning efforts, Covenant's resistance would be enough to cause the whole process to fail. Having failed, Covenant was unsummoned.

What is more remarkable is Covenant's ability to resist in the first place. It arises, of course, from his passion. That girl had to be saved! Covenant is becoming a person who can take his passion and use it constructively. And we get a clue to the link between passion and power.

Are we sure that it's all due to Covenant's resistance? He was passionate about being there for his wife too, not just about helping helpless children. Covenant's reactions are most probably very important but I still hold that the difference in character between Mhoram and Elena is significant as well.

Elena is prone to see things in absolutes while Mhoram on the other hand is filled with self doubts and recriminations. Elena sees the big picture and the ideals while Mhoram has his eyes focused on the human beings and the flaws.

So when Elena summoned Covenant to the Land she left him little chance to resist but when Mhoram summoned him he gave him the room needed for it. Whether intentionally or by their differing nature the summoning were different from one another.

Another difference between the two summonings is the presence of the Staff of Law. As I recall, Mhoram wasn't certain that Covenant could be summoned at all without the Staff. Perhaps that difference made the summoning easier for him to resist?

White gold, which is beyond the Law of Death, made the Summoning easier to resist. The loss of the Staff made the Summoning itself easier.

[wayfriend]

Are we sure that it's all due to Covenant's resistance? He was passionate about being there for his wife too, not just about helping helpless children.

I think this is exactly the difference we are supposed to notice. Covenant has changed. His passion is constructively focused towards saving that girl. He's trying to be like a Bloodguard -- and in ironic irony, he is being like one. Using his passion and turning it into efficacy and strength and selfless courage. Prior to that, Covanant had feelings about what was done to him, but he never used those feelings as a source of strength in order to do something - he accepted and he lived an ineffectual life. His passion was difuse and did nothing.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Are we sure that it's all due to Covenant's resistance? He was passionate about being there for his wife too, not just about helping helpless children.

I think this is exactly the difference we are supposed to notice. Covenant has changed. His passion is constructively focused towards saving that girl. He's trying to be like a Bloodguard -- and in ironic irony, he is being like one. Using his passion and turning it into efficacy and strength and selfless courage. Prior to that, Covanant had feelings about what was done to him, but he never used those feelings as a source of strength in order to do something - he accepted and he lived an ineffectual life. His passion was difuse and did nothing.

I see his character development (in the first chronicles) a little differently.

He was always passionate and focused on his chosen causes. But in the beginning he was, well, hopeless. He dedicated himself to the survival of his body, severing all his leanings toward creativity and imagination as those were the things that prevented him from noticing that he had developed leprosy until two of his fingers started rotting off.

And he dedicated himself also to a self abstinence and self guilting for the sake of his estranged wife and child. Instead of trying to selfishly try to pursue his wife or at least his newborn child he holes up in his farm because he believes he'll only hurt them (by infecting them with his disease or making them social outcasts). Instead of giving his emotions the laxity to resent his wife for abandoning him he accepts it and as his due and keeps his love or at least dedication to her untarnished.

You could say that his passions are negative and non constructive though I'd say it's an accomplishment to keep his positive emotions to someone intact instead of just hating the whole world, and perhaps he was right to repress his imagination as well until he had the self discipline to be confident that his body won't betray him while his mind was away.

But in any case when his wife calls him there is no conflict. His passion has been aimed all along very strongly toward caring for his wife. After all these years she finally gives him the chance to do just that and just at that moment Elena interferes. His passion would definitely be focused, like a spear, at preventing his translation to the Land. Because his wife NEEDS him. And he NEEDS to be there for her. This is the moment that would validate all the years of self abnegation he had suffered for her since she left him.

[Barnetto]

As far as I understand it, TC's self-control and dedication to his self-preservation as a leper are symbolic of Law in the Land (rather than Passion). Law, of course, is also a source of strength and power, but as Mhoram discovers, it also carries with it implicit restrictions. It is only through adherence to a highly proscriptive regime, with constant visual checks and a complete acceptance of the nature of his condition and its restrictive meaning for his life, that TC survives.

TC's total focus on his self-preservation represses his natural Passion (though underneath it all it is still there, represented by his strong protective feelings towards wife and child). Just as a focus on Law restricts and represses the (far less controlled and controllable) power available from Passion.

Ultimately the journey of TC in the First Chronicles (and Mhoram) is of finding a balance, between control (Law) and passion (White Gold).

I agree with Wayfriend that the important message of TC's resistance to the summoning in TPTP is that he is learning to allow his Passion to direct him and in so doing he is discovering a source of power within himself.

(Though I thought the irony of the Bloodguard was the fact that they turned the Passion released by their meeting with Kevin into a power (via their Vow) akin to Law (ie Earthpower). The problem for the Bloodguard was that, in so doing, they renounced Passion entirely, and so their power and strength (and most importantly service), formidible though it was, was ultimately limited and somewhat brittle.)

[wayfriend]

Hey, B.

My take on the Bloodguard is not that they have renounced Passion, but have instead supressed it, but it is still there, and the source of their powers.

[Barnetto]

Hey, B.

My take on the Bloodguard is not that they have renounced Passion, but have instead supressed it, but it is still there, and the source of their powers.

Yes, I agree and am happy to have my thoughts clarified by you again, Wayfriend

You're right, "supressed their Passion" is a better way of putting it than "renounced".

Also (and I'm just thinking out loud here!) their physical strength, speed etc always came from their innate nature (honed by their montane upbringing) and we know it existed before their Vow. And that nature, certainly was a Passionate one from what we are told. So, although the Vow enhanced those powers in some way (no need to sleep etc), I'm also with you on their Passion being the source of their natural puissance.

Perhaps, therefore, it's not right to say that the Vow itself limited their power, but rather it limited their understanding of how to judge themselves and in so doing it limited the purposes for which they were willing to use their power (ie give their service)? Whilst that was (arguably) 99% good (from the Land's perspective), it did mean that their power/service was brittle and they were too willing to withdraw service/power when they judged themselves to have shown themselves unworthy.

I may have strayed too far from the point here, but to me there is still an irony inherent in the fact that the Bloodguard's Passion lead to Vow, which was empowered by Earthpower/Law (which carried with it necessary limits when applied in a proscriptive manner).

(BTW, the Bloodguard always rejected the use (by themselves) of powers such as those invoked by the Lords. I don't recall seeing any suggestion of how they felt, therefore, about the fact that their Vow itself was a thing of Earthpower. That should have given them pause for thought, surely?)

[High Lord Tolkien]

(BTW, the Bloodguard always rejected the use (by themselves) of powers such as those invoked by the Lords. I don't recall seeing any suggestion of how they felt, therefore, about the fact that their Vow itself was a thing of Earthpower. That should have given them pause for thought, surely?)

That part is interesting.
The Vow did nothing more than sustain them, it didn't augment their abilities.
It supported them and freed them to use their skills unhampered.
So....technically it wasn't a "power" or a "weapon" that the BG used and didn't cheat their refusal to use weapons anymore than eating treasure berries did, imho.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Another difference between the two summonings is the presence of the Staff of Law. As I recall, Mhoram wasn't certain that Covenant could be summoned at all without the Staff. Perhaps that difference made the summoning easier for him to resist?

TC was pretty much dying at that point when Mhoram summoned him. Mhoram understood why he could summon TC after he saw his physical condition.

Foamfollower and Tirock was able to do it with even less lore because TC was almost dead at that point *and* TC *wanted* the summoning to happen.

[wayfriend]

My theory is that the Bloodguard suppressed their passion, but because they eschewed overt uses of power, such as the Lords use, their power came out in ways which they didn't consciously choose.

Long life. No need to sleep. Etc. Bloodguard could accept these forms of power because it served their purposes in serving the Lords, but they were not weapons, and so were acceptible to them. The Vow found ways to give the Bloodguard powers that fit within their codes. Powers which, in fact, expressed their inner selves.

[Barnetto]

The Vow did nothing more than sustain them, it didn't augment their abilities.
It supported them and freed them to use their skills unhampered.
So....technically it wasn't a "power" or a "weapon" that the BG used and didn't cheat their refusal to use weapons anymore than eating treasure berries did, imho.

Perhaps that's right. Though, even so, they were indirectly benefiting from the use of Earthpower by having natural limitations (tiredness) removed.

Spoiler

I can't recall seeing anything specific, but in their incarnation as the Masters presumably the Haruchai have to sleep - that aspect of their nature (the Sleepless Ones) having been down to the Vow?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The Vow did nothing more than sustain them, it didn't augment their abilities.
It supported them and freed them to use their skills unhampered.
So....technically it wasn't a "power" or a "weapon" that the BG used and didn't cheat their refusal to use weapons anymore than eating treasure berries did, imho.

Perhaps that's right. Though, even so, they were indirectly benefiting from the use of Earthpower by having natural limitations (tiredness) removed.

I would say they were more than indirectly benefitting from it. At some point in the Chrons the story was that Earthpower was (somehow) so impressed by the passion behind the Bloodguard vow that it granted them freedom from sleep and death.