Worst book of the chronicles?

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Post by Hiro »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Hiro wrote:
Barnetto wrote: I don't really understand how people (many people in fact) can pick LFB, for this "accolade"...

This is the book that started it all. This is the book that set the astonishly rich and complex emotional rollercoaster on its way. This is the book where the crucial themes appear. The very concept of the First Chronicles on its own was bloody brilliant. Perhaps, just perhaps, it was a little rough and raw compared to some later writing, but still, pretty much everyone on this site must initially have been drawn in by this one....?

For me, the pull of this book is (for the reasons above) perhaps more visceral than anything, so I wouldn't dream of nominating it...
Well, I just pushed myself to pick one of the six books. And LFB rolled out. Ofcourse it started it all, but I still think that the following books are better. All of them.
Better in what way?
The following impression is from memory, as I haven't reread the First and Second Chrons recently.

After LFB, the landscape of the story and its characters opened up and deepened in the subsequent books. Thomas Covenant returning to the Land and having to deal with the consequences of his earlier visit grabbed me more, - and in my opinion served to distinguish the Chrons from Tolkien / other fantasy -, than its setups in LFB.

Which reminds me of the connection between TRS and the following books in the Gap series. In a remote way ofcourse, as TRS is a novella rather than a full novel like LFB.

I'd have to reread LFB and the rest to gauge them from the vantage point of the present. Which would be interesting since I am having trouble enjoying the Last Chrons as much.
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Post by Rigel »

I don't understand how anyone can pick any of these books as their least favorite.

I'm in the middle of TOT right now, and there are [/i]so many[/i] moments that just slam you emotionally.

For instance, I just read "Withdrawal from Service," and Brinn justifying the Haruchai's secumbing to the merewives by bringing up Covenant's disavowal of the Land's reality... it just really brought me up short, and made me stop and think... and I've read the **** book several times already! It still has that effect on me!

Anyway, all the books are like that for me. They never lose their effect.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Rigel wrote:I don't understand how anyone can pick any of these books as their least favorite.

I'm in the middle of TOT right now, and there are [/i]so many[/i] moments that just slam you emotionally.

For instance, I just read "Withdrawal from Service," and Brinn justifying the Haruchai's secumbing to the merewives by bringing up Covenant's disavowal of the Land's reality... it just really brought me up short, and made me stop and think... and I've read the **** book several times already! It still has that effect on me!

Anyway, all the books are like that for me. They never lose their effect.
Which parts of Lord Foul's Bane had that affect on you?
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Post by Barnetto »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Which parts of Lord Foul's Bane had that affect on you?
There were some (for me) - especially in the interaction of TC and Foamfollower on the boat journey to Revelstone and also in Manhome. It's just that most of them aren't (at this stage in the story) uplifting.

"Ah, that is as sad a tale in three words as any you might have told me."
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Barnetto wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Which parts of Lord Foul's Bane had that affect on you?
There were some (for me) - especially in the interaction of TC and Foamfollower on the boat journey to Revelstone and also in Manhome. It's just that most of them aren't (at this stage in the story) uplifting.

"Ah, that is as sad a tale in three words as any you might have told me."
I thought you might cite the journey with Foamy.

I find that almost all of Donaldson's writing will elicit strong emotions of some kind or other.

There is Covenant's first meeting with the Lord's. Their astonishment when he reveals the white gold ring. The song of white gold.

There is the departure of Covenant from the Land after he has saved the quest.

There is the Test of Truth scene which Covenant should have failed, but barely managed to pass.
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Post by Rigel »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Which parts of Lord Foul's Bane had that affect on you?
(quoting from memory here, as I'm at work and LFB is at home)
"I can't bloody use it!" he cried, as if his ring were a talisman of power, and not a symbol of his marriage.
Not to mention,
"It isn't catching, you know. Except for children. It isn't catching."
Shoot, this is going to eat at my brain until I get home and I can post the exact wording...
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Rigel wrote:
Shoot, this is going to eat at my brain until I get home and I can post the exact wording...
Here's the quotes.

"I can't use it!" he shouted lornly, as if the ring were still a
symbol of marriage, not a talisman of wild magic. "I'm a leper!"

"It isn't catching, you know. You won't get it from me, there's nothing to worry about. It isn't catching. Except for children."
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Post by Rigel »

OK, thanks. Surprising I got the marriage and power thing reversed, but that's an imperfect memory for you :)
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Post by Black Asgard »

I really didn't like the One Tree. I know that it's a quixotic leap outward for the series, but the setting, the drawling, listing boring scenes on the Giantship didn't enthuse or interest me. It did make for some of the more interesting characters, but I simply found that it dragged.

Now, I must say that I more or less disown the second chronicles. When I try to get my friends to read them, and they ask how many books there are, I say, "Three. And if you like it, eight."
Spoiler

Here's my issue: the first three feel tightly written, constrained to coherent, psychological layers that are going somewhere, ascending on some delicate character arc; they have a sense of forgiving reproach to the humanity of the characters that populate them. And, with the exception of Foamfollower and Foul, all of the characters are Human.

The second chronicles puts the focus on the Elohim, on the Giants, on Vain, and other outlandish characters with only Linden Avery to ground the reader in the insanity and hysteria going on around her...but she doesn't prove a very good relation point, because she is absorbed in Covenant in a romantic light, which is, to use the vernacular, closed to us.

The series flounders in the second chronicles, not because of any one character or any one choice, but mostly because of a cumulative over-exposure to the Weird. The grade of increasing unfamiliarity is never there; immediately, the Land is utterly unreconizable. The characters are strange--everything we know is burned to hell, twisted and corrupted.

So, after three books, we're forced to teach ourselves to love this new place, and to hope at the same time for its restoration...but we have no hope to pin that on, because of the Wielder/Healer conflict in Linden. We can't put our hope in her, and Covenant is too foreign now, removed by 10 years of melancholy and regret, to retain his familiarity.

The series DOES pick up in Runes of the Earth, largely because it returns a lot of the old to the series: the lush (but limited) Land, and Linden has, by that time, become a familiar viewpoint. There is a sense of progression of her character, and of the others. And the humans around her, the Stonedownor, Anele, the Ramen, and even the Haruchai, they all have a striking relation to our own lives. We can invest ourselves in the Stonedownor's honest enthusiasm, the Ramen's grave sense of duty, the Haruchai's tested faith. And we can relate to Linden, who is unfuddled by Covenant's proximity, because we understand what she wants: to protect a loved one, regardless of the circumstances.
The second chronicles, as a whole, I feel are much weaker than the first chronicles. They might be more flashy, more interesting, but those books I had to WORK through. And the One Tree especially.
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Post by Barnetto »

I've just completed a read through of all eight books of the Chronicles, starting in around January this year. So that's about seven months worth of reading on the tube to and from work for me. This was after a break of around 25 years since I last read them.

And, as I've indicated before, I do largely agree with Black Asgard's assessment.

The First Chronicles remain the pinnacle of the whole concept of the Chronicles, for me. And as a story, it is far more cohesive and coherent. It was original and unconstrained in its formulation by SRD and I think that shows. It doesn't suffer from any a priori issues. TC is a wonderful anti-hero of a character and the Land is wonderful and surprising - but not too surprising. Every element that is introduced during the First Chronicles feels right - nothing feels like it jars or comes too far from left field. The linear development of the story and the character arc rolls the reader along with it.

I too had more issues with the Second Chronicles. There were things that I thought were splendid about them. I think SRD's set up for the Second Chronicles was masterly. The subversion of the Land, the venom in TC, the Clave, all brilliant devices to take the story on. And there was some undeniably brilliant set pieces, probably more so than in the First Chronicles. The white gold caamora, in particular, I think is the finest section of the whole Chronicles. In many ways it was easier to empathise with TC now his intentions were all pointed in the "right" direction. But, as Black Asgard says, there is a "cumulative over-exposure to the weird". The characters etc that are introduced this time round do not all seem quite so holistic, quite so "natural". Some of them may be, in themselves, extremely interesting devices, but overall it detracts from that essential cohesion that existed in the First Chronicles. There is a sense of a number of set pieces stitched together in some parts of the Second Chronicles that I never felt in the first. (Though I do think that my opinion of them this second time around is much higher than the first time, 25 years ago, when I might well have equally "disowned" them.)

The One Tree appears to divide opinion perhaps more than any other book and, overall, I'm with Black Asgard on the negative side of the scales.

There is also the contrast between TC's time in the Land and his time back where he belongs in the First Chronicles, that added a whole new, and, for me, important, dimension to the work which is lacking in the Second Chronicles. It was one of the main things that drew me into the Chronicles in the first place. That tangible connection between fantasy and character and the "real" world. With far greater perspicacity than I can manage, Wayfriend has recently put this into larger context.
Wayfriend wrote:Covenant's real story arc is not about learning how to defeat Foul or how to save the Land. His real story arc is a journey of self-discovery. He must resolve his internal conflicts, face the darknesses he carries within himself, tear down his self-built walls. When he does so, he will be capable of wielding the white gold, and the fall of Lord Foul is then a rather trivial exercise.

It's no coincidence that it's just this kind of an ordeal which is of practical value to a modern man in the real world. Covenant could learn how to use Earthpower, but, when he returns to his real home and his real life, this knowledge wouldn't be worth anything. Covenant could learn how to lead armies or ride Ranyhyn into battle, but he would have no armies, no Ranyhyn, when he returned to Haven farm. Ah, but learning how to master ones passions and to harness them towards constructive ends - in the modern, Ironic world, that has real value. To Covenant - and by extension, to us.
I'd like to think that even if I'm not capable of analysing and interpreting the Chronicles in the depth and with the insight that others are able, even if the Land as metaphor or externalisation of TC's emotional struggles largely passed me by first time around, nevertheless, by reacting to the books in the first place in a very visceral, emotional way, I did unconsciously in some sense recognise this important facet to SRD's work.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

(How did I miss this thread? lol )


"worst book"? Hmm......tough one.

Each book had moments of lows.

In LFB, Atiaran was the most aggravating character for me. Her sense of failure was just too much of a bummer.
I was very happy when Foamfollower took over.

In IEW, the whole Elena/Covenant daughter/lover thing was just too weird. To this day I'm not sure where SRD was going or even why he went there like that. Very bizarre.

In tPtP, the Lena annoyed the hell out of me and Pietten was boring as hell.
On a side note, that I find interesting and a testament to how good SRD is, I also found the jheherrin parts incredibly boring but that's what is interesting to me. Looking back, they are so pitiful and yet they transcended themselves. It chokes me up.

In tWL............thinking........nope, nothing wrong except Linden.


In TOT I found many of the boat scenes in the beginning of the book boring. Linden's possession abilities held little interest for me.

In the WGW the first few chapters bored the hell out of me. I had no interesting in anything to do with the arghuleh. Looking back I appreciate how it added to the building theme of sacrifice but it was too long and the characters held no interest for me.

So if I had to say the "worst book" for me............I'd go with tPtP.
Only for the fact that looking back it had no "WOW" moments like all the others had.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

"The One Tree" because it was unbearable to see Covenant so helpless, muttering "Don't Touch Me," all the time.
Still a splendid book with many vivid moments.
"The Power that Preserves" distressed me the first time I read it because for the first time, Covenant could not be cured of his Leprosy. Also, the unfettered healer went through all that and only cured Covenant's broken ankle? WTF?
Unlike many who disliked "the Wounded Land," I give it high marks!
Seeing Covenant go through all that and wind up in Andelain meeting up with his dead, was overwhelming-- I cried!
But asking which book is your least favorite is like asking which orgasm you've had is your least favorite!
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Post by Rocksister »

Sorry loved all from first two chrons, but AATE, not even gonna finish.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Rocksister wrote:Sorry loved all from first two chrons, but AATE, not even gonna finish.
:swoon: Marry me? :D I'm a purist, so I'm not gonna even start it. But you're still a woman after my own heart.



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Post by ministerart »

Runes of the earth messed with my head...such a steep entry to the last chronicals. I love Donaldsons descriptive wordplay but I wasnt ready for where he took the story...and with such depth. I had to re read it three times before I got back on board
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Post by ministerart »

Spoiler
Oh?..and does anyone else suspect that the healer..who helped Covenant...could be Linden?
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Post by ministerart »

Scott Bricks audio books of the first trilogy helped me through many confused moments
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Post by Fist and Faith »

ministerart wrote:
Spoiler
Oh?..and does anyone else suspect that the healer..who helped Covenant...could be Linden?
8O 8O 8O
Spoiler
Has anyone suggested this before?? I don't remember hearing it. What a fascinating idea! It's easy enough. Not only is Linden a doctor, but the Healer was off her rocker. And it would also make me like Linden. A little bit.
Watch out, though. We might need to spoil this discussion if it goes any farther. Or take it to the Last Chrons forum. Which I guess I'll do now. Copying...
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Post by Orlion »

(Thanks, Fist) All ready spoilered. As always, folks, I'm a lenient fellow, I don't care if you say "AATE sucks" or "AATE was a friggin' masterpiece", but just remember to keep content of the Last Chronicles out of here...

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Oooooooo!!!! Orlion's gonna be in trouble with Av!!!!!
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