Where is the Land?

[wayfriend]

Seriously, though, what does it for me is the time difference between Covenant's (and Linden's) "visits" to the Land. That alone suggests to me that the Land exists in some sort of parallel universe or dimension. Otherwise, if it was part of our own universe as we understand it, time would flow as it does for us here on Earth.

Good point.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Seriously, though, what does it for me is the time difference between Covenant's (and Linden's) "visits" to the Land. That alone suggests to me that the Land exists in some sort of parallel universe or dimension. Otherwise, if it was part of our own universe as we understand it, time would flow as it does for us here on Earth.

Good point.

Why? We already know that time flows differently in dreams, whereas we don't know anything about parallel universes - we don't even know if there is a time-dimension in parallel universes. Does the fact that time flows differently in dreams tell you that dreams really come from a parallel universe?

[peter]

Seriously, though, what does it for me is the time difference between Covenant's (and Linden's) "visits" to the Land. That alone suggests to me that the Land exists in some sort of parallel universe or dimension. Otherwise, if it was part of our own universe as we understand it, time would flow as it does for us here on Earth.

Good point.

Sorry Guys - I don't buy it. We know that the rate of passage of time is not a constant even in our own Universe, being affected by such things as gravity and speed of motion etc. Who is to say what conditions may pertain and what effects they may have on the passage of time at the far reaches of the Universe. More significant to me is the existance of 'magic' (if you can call it that) in the Land. It seems to me that in any given universe the rules of physics/existence would need to be the same and the physics of the Land seems fundamentally different enough to justify the belief that it must be in a different/paralell dimension to our/TC's universe.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Seriously, though, what does it for me is the time difference between Covenant's (and Linden's) "visits" to the Land. That alone suggests to me that the Land exists in some sort of parallel universe or dimension. Otherwise, if it was part of our own universe as we understand it, time would flow as it does for us here on Earth.

Good point.

Sorry Guys - I don't buy it. We know that the rate of passage of time is not a constant even in our own Universe, being affected by such things as gravity and speed of motion etc.

You mean a noninertial reference frame.

Who is to say what conditions may pertain and what effects they may have on the passage of time at the far reaches of the Universe. More significant to me is the existance of 'magic' (if you can call it that) in the Land. It seems to me that in any given universe the rules of physics/existence would need to be the same and the physics of the Land seems fundamentally different enough to justify the belief that it must be in a different/paralell dimension to our/TC's universe.

Aren't you contradicting your first statement quoted above? What is the physics of the Land? Time, space, causality. Magic alone distinguishes the Land from reality, magic however can also occur in dreams.

[peter]

Yeah WOTWE, there are problems here - firstly I keep (partially) remembering a quote to the effect that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to a society that has not achieved that level of understanding. And then there is the problem of what exactly IS magic; did we ever posses it here and did it desert us with the advent of sci/tech etc. When/why did miracles stop happening, did the Greek Gods really use the earth as a playground - methinks the topic is running away with me

[Vraith]

Not exactly on topic, but an odd/amusing connection at least in MY brain:
Just saw a thing today, a physicist who says gravity [and an implication time, too] is just an illusion!

[3rd warrior on the left]

I suspect you can reach the Land using the thrid exit on the 'extra' roundabout on the A43 heading north between the M40 and M1.
There always seems to be an extra one during the hours of darkness, I never count the same number going south.
And theres no other vehicles about when I'm there.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Yeah WOTWE, there are problems here - firstly I keep (partially) remembering a quote to the effect that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to a society that has not achieved that level of understanding. And then there is the problem of what exactly IS magic; did we ever posses it here and did it desert us with the advent of sci/tech etc. When/why did miracles stop happening, did the Greek Gods really use the earth as a playground - methinks the topic is running away with me

To keep it on topic, Donaldson distinguished magic from physics somewhere in the GI which we always keep discussing here. He said something to the effect that magic is internal while physics is external. I would say that magic is subjective while physics is objective.

That is why the Oath of Peace hindered the progress of the new Lords. The Seven Wards were created by a person with a completely different mind-set, and there was utterly no repression of his talents, he could make use of them to the best of his ability. The new Lords had the potential, but their oath had walled them off from it. They are not the old Lords and never will be like them because of the Oath.

Correct me if I'm wrong, after Foul was vanquished at the end of the first Chrons, the new Lords invented their own form of magic, one better suited to their personality and culture, and which they could develop to its fullest potential.

[Orlion]

Yeah WOTWE, there are problems here - firstly I keep (partially) remembering a quote to the effect that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to a society that has not achieved that level of understanding. And then there is the problem of what exactly IS magic; did we ever posses it here and did it desert us with the advent of sci/tech etc. When/why did miracles stop happening, did the Greek Gods really use the earth as a playground - methinks the topic is running away with me

To keep it on topic, Donaldson distinguished magic from physics somewhere in the GI which we always keep discussing here. He said something to the effect that magic is internal while physics is external. I would say that magic is subjective while physics is objective.

An excellent summary of what Donaldson said. For those interested:

The simplest distinction between magic and technology (fantasy and sf) is that magic is internal where technology is external. The gap drive depends on an arcane manipulation of the laws of physics: the person *using* the gap drive has absolutely no effect on whether or not the drive works. The "impossible" is external, entirely the result of a physical device. Wild magic, in contrast, is an expression of the person wielding its instrument. Different people can do different things with wild magic, as they can with Earthpower--and with every other form of magic in "The Chronicles". An instrument may be necessary (white gold) or it may not (the Ranyhyn don't use tools), but the magic itself articulates the spirit or passion or imagination or transcendance of the person using the instrument or power. ("You are the white gold.") So magic is internal.

Put another way, technology is a means to an end. In one sense or another, magic is not a means: it's an end. In both cases, of course, a person determines the use to which the "impossible" is put. But you could say that in sf the person *chooses* the use, while in fantasy the person *is* the use.

Incidentally, that's why magic is better left (mostly) unexplained. The more it's explained, the more it becomes external: the mere presence of an explanation requires the magic to conform to the rules of that explanation; and if it works that way *here* it should work the same way elsewhere, for anyone--just like a technological device.

Put still another way: in "The Chronicles," the "impossible" describes my characters; in the GAP books, the "impossible" describes the reality inhabited by my characters.

(01/07/2009)

And, for further reading on Donaldson's view on the difference between sci-fi and fantasy:

Writers like Clarke--and Hal Clement--and Larry Niven--are reductive materialists. (OK, OK: from time to time, Clarke is a bit less reductive than Clement or Niven.) For them, there can exist only one form of transcendance: that which transcends our present knowledge. In the end, therefore, everything comes down to physics. If it *looks* numinous or spiritual or immeasurable, that's because our perceptions are limited by ignorance, not because reality actually contains anything numinous or spiritual or immeasurable.

I disagree. (Of course, I could be wrong. But so could they.) As far as I'm concerned, life is palpably greater than the sum of its parts. As far as I'm concerned, life *by definition* transcends measurement. Naturally, not all science fiction denies transcendance--and not all fantasy affirms it. But if you want to grasp the difference between what Clarke (for example) is trying to communicate and what I'm trying to communicate, you'll need to recognize that he and I are working from radically distinct paradigms.

Or if that doesn't help, try this. A writer like Clarke is looking outward at the "mysteries" of the universe. I'm looking inward at the "mysteries" of identity, emotion, and imagination. (A sour critic once said of Clarke, "He writes about human beings as if he's never actually met one." Well, guess why.) So even if you assert that "science" will eventually be able to elucidate all the "mysteries" of identity, emotion, and imagination, you can still acknowledge that "magic and monsters" are useful metaphors for describing the actual experience of *having* identity, emotion, and imagination. Such issues don't interest the Clarkes and Clements and Nivens of the world, but they fascinate me.

(01/01/2006)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Yeah WOTWE, there are problems here - firstly I keep (partially) remembering a quote to the effect that any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to a society that has not achieved that level of understanding. And then there is the problem of what exactly IS magic; did we ever posses it here and did it desert us with the advent of sci/tech etc. When/why did miracles stop happening, did the Greek Gods really use the earth as a playground - methinks the topic is running away with me

To keep it on topic, Donaldson distinguished magic from physics somewhere in the GI which we always keep discussing here. He said something to the effect that magic is internal while physics is external. I would say that magic is subjective while physics is objective.

An excellent summary of what Donaldson said. For those interested:

The simplest distinction between magic and technology (fantasy and sf) is that magic is internal where technology is external. The gap drive depends on an arcane manipulation of the laws of physics: the person *using* the gap drive has absolutely no effect on whether or not the drive works. The "impossible" is external, entirely the result of a physical device. Wild magic, in contrast, is an expression of the person wielding its instrument. Different people can do different things with wild magic, as they can with Earthpower--and with every other form of magic in "The Chronicles". An instrument may be necessary (white gold) or it may not (the Ranyhyn don't use tools), but the magic itself articulates the spirit or passion or imagination or transcendance of the person using the instrument or power. ("You are the white gold.") So magic is internal.

Put another way, technology is a means to an end. In one sense or another, magic is not a means: it's an end. In both cases, of course, a person determines the use to which the "impossible" is put. But you could say that in sf the person *chooses* the use, while in fantasy the person *is* the use.

Incidentally, that's why magic is better left (mostly) unexplained. The more it's explained, the more it becomes external: the mere presence of an explanation requires the magic to conform to the rules of that explanation; and if it works that way *here* it should work the same way elsewhere, for anyone--just like a technological device.

Put still another way: in "The Chronicles," the "impossible" describes my characters; in the GAP books, the "impossible" describes the reality inhabited by my characters.

(01/07/2009)

And, for further reading on Donaldson's view on the difference between sci-fi and fantasy:

Writers like Clarke--and Hal Clement--and Larry Niven--are reductive materialists. (OK, OK: from time to time, Clarke is a bit less reductive than Clement or Niven.) For them, there can exist only one form of transcendance: that which transcends our present knowledge. In the end, therefore, everything comes down to physics. If it *looks* numinous or spiritual or immeasurable, that's because our perceptions are limited by ignorance, not because reality actually contains anything numinous or spiritual or immeasurable.

I disagree. (Of course, I could be wrong. But so could they.) As far as I'm concerned, life is palpably greater than the sum of its parts. As far as I'm concerned, life *by definition* transcends measurement. Naturally, not all science fiction denies transcendance--and not all fantasy affirms it. But if you want to grasp the difference between what Clarke (for example) is trying to communicate and what I'm trying to communicate, you'll need to recognize that he and I are working from radically distinct paradigms.

Or if that doesn't help, try this. A writer like Clarke is looking outward at the "mysteries" of the universe. I'm looking inward at the "mysteries" of identity, emotion, and imagination. (A sour critic once said of Clarke, "He writes about human beings as if he's never actually met one." Well, guess why.) So even if you assert that "science" will eventually be able to elucidate all the "mysteries" of identity, emotion, and imagination, you can still acknowledge that "magic and monsters" are useful metaphors for describing the actual experience of *having* identity, emotion, and imagination. Such issues don't interest the Clarkes and Clements and Nivens of the world, but they fascinate me.

(01/01/2006)

Thanks for the great clarification, Orlion. Because of it I have thought of another way to make the same distinction between magic and science.

Fantasy is a way of viewing the external world from within ourselves, as a reflection of ourselves; science fiction is a way of viewing ourselves from the objective world's standpoint.

The latter is very much what reductive materalism is about.

[Cameraman Jenn]

The Land is somewhere past the precipice next to pacific bell... don't you people watch fbh?

[Shuram Gudatetris]

Personally, I think the land exists in the mind of an old beggar in an ocher robe, and a handful of psychically-inclined folks have shared with that man's dream. But, on the other hand, if it is a real, physical place, I would have to say it is in another dimension, the door to which is created and opened via an unexplained phenomenon produced by the abnormal brain activity within an old beggar man's mind.

You ever think about universes within universes? We keep breaking things down smaller and smaller. And the smaller the parts we discover making up slightly bigger small parts, we discover to be made up themselves of even smaller parts. It never stops. And the same might be true of going larger. If you consider the universe as we know it, as a whole, the furthest our minds can possibly conceive, who is to say that everything we know and can conceive and even dream is only a tiny fragment making up an even larger universe?

Maybe the Land is on a planet within a solar system within a galaxy that makes up a tiny particle which makes up a quark (or whatever is the smallest thing we know of, I am not up-to-date on current physics theory or fact). Maybe that tiny particle makes up the matter that once was TC's severed pinky?

Either way, the old man can open a door to another dimension of reality, or he is just dreaming up the whole damn thing, the crazy fucker.

An excellent summary of what Donaldson said. For those interested:

The simplest distinction between magic and technology (fantasy and sf) is that magic is internal where technology is external. The gap drive depends on an arcane manipulation of the laws of physics: the person *using* the gap drive has absolutely no effect on whether or not the drive works. The "impossible" is external, entirely the result of a physical device. Wild magic, in contrast, is an expression of the person wielding its instrument. Different people can do different things with wild magic, as they can with Earthpower--and with every other form of magic in "The Chronicles". An instrument may be necessary (white gold) or it may not (the Ranyhyn don't use tools), but the magic itself articulates the spirit or passion or imagination or transcendance of the person using the instrument or power. ("You are the white gold.") So magic is internal.

Put another way, technology is a means to an end. In one sense or another, magic is not a means: it's an end. In both cases, of course, a person determines the use to which the "impossible" is put. But you could say that in sf the person *chooses* the use, while in fantasy the person *is* the use.

Incidentally, that's why magic is better left (mostly) unexplained. The more it's explained, the more it becomes external: the mere presence of an explanation requires the magic to conform to the rules of that explanation; and if it works that way *here* it should work the same way elsewhere, for anyone--just like a technological device.

Put still another way: in "The Chronicles," the "impossible" describes my characters; in the GAP books, the "impossible" describes the reality inhabited by my characters.

(01/07/2009)

SRD talks an awful lot like my brother and I used to do when we would get stoned and discuss the nature of the universe.

I said

Why - it's so obvious. It is most definitely a moon

orbiting

Uranus!

Actually, I think the question about where the Land is located is a very good discussion point, and I hope that the original poster did not think I was making fun of him or his question.

I'm sure the person who discovered the planet "Uranus" had no idea it would be used as a punch line to a really stupid joke. But dang, I could not help myself - and my post was purely for humor, not to make fun.

You know what i think is funny about Uranus? In the cartoon Sailor Moon, the lesbian butch Sailor was Sailor Uranus. Call me crazy, but that is humor!

[Edited because I messed up the quotes.]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Personally, I think the land exists in the mind of an old beggar in an ocher robe, and a handful of psychically-inclined folks have shared with that man's dream.

And the old man just happened to have the ability to lie down in the street and die, literally die, and then allow himself to be revived. After which, he had the ability to simply vanish into thin air as he walked away.

[wayfriend]

Personally, I think the land exists in the mind of an old beggar in an ocher robe, and a handful of psychically-inclined folks have shared with that man's dream.

And the old man just happened to have the ability to lie down in the street and die, literally die, and then allow himself to be revived. After which, he had the ability to simply vanish into thin air as he walked away.

Yes. Thomas Covenant's "real world" is not the real world. You must, I think, realize that when you discuss where the Land is in relation to it. TC's real world is similar enough to our real world that we can believe it is, but those few odd impossibilities prove it is not.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Personally, I think the land exists in the mind of an old beggar in an ocher robe, and a handful of psychically-inclined folks have shared with that man's dream.

And the old man just happened to have the ability to lie down in the street and die, literally die, and then allow himself to be revived. After which, he had the ability to simply vanish into thin air as he walked away.

Yes. Thomas Covenant's "real world" is not the real world. You must, I think, realize that when you discuss where the Land is in relation to it. TC's real world is similar enough to our real world that we can believe it is, but those few odd impossibilities prove it is not.

As you said, Covenant's world is similar enough to our world; and in our world (which is similar to Covenant's), old men don't behave that way unless it is someone's dream or delusion and not a real man. What I'm saying is that the story is premised around a person from the "real" world having a dream, delusion, or amazing thing happen to him.

[wayfriend]

As you said, Covenant's world is similar enough to our world; and in our world (which is similar to Covenant's), old men don't behave that way unless it is someone's dream or delusion and not a real man.

Yes. But can we be sure that this is so in TC's real world? For example, in TC's real world, fire can have eyes.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As you said, Covenant's world is similar enough to our world; and in our world (which is similar to Covenant's), old men don't behave that way unless it is someone's dream or delusion and not a real man.

Yes. But can we be sure that this is so in TC's real world? For example, in TC's real world, fire can have eyes.

Eyes, and maybe even fangs too. Such appearances are considered illusory both in our world and Covenant's world. Also in both worlds, there will always be those who think the illusions are real, and will ascribe them to Satan. However, I assume that in Covenant's world, as in our own, science has proven itself over magic and superstition.

[Krazy Kat]

Near to where I live, in the district of Sherwood, is a park with adjacent pitch n putt course. It's a lovely spot where the local community can sit on the grass, read a book, picnic with the kids, walk their dog, run and play. But for some unknown reason to me the council had decided to plough several rectangular patches here and there. Not that it stops anyone from enjoying the park, it's just that the patches of ground look a mess and remind me of crop circles...only they're...well...not circles, but rectangles.

Perhaps the Trent University was granted permission to run some study on the weed that's growing in these patches. I don't know anything about botany so I can't tell you what the weeds are but they look remarkably like various types of miniature trees, about six inches high or so.

Between the park and the golfing course are real trees, and one in particular has long spreading branches low to the ground. Around this tree is a grass circle. And around the grass circle is the biggest of the rectangles. As its been baking hot recently it's a super cool place to sit in the shade; read a book, picnic with the kids, walk the dog, run and play -
It's also a good area to just sit and contemplate on the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.

As I walked back towards main path and across the weeded rectangles I thought to myself how nice it would be to have had a young son and what fun it would've been to visit the park with a bag full of toy soldiers tanks and cars animals and dinosaurs, and to sit and tell stories about how trees are as like the galaxies in the sky blue firmament their leaves the systems of stars and planets mapped out with points and junctions and how these relativities speak in whispers of a bigger meaning than the confines of a local park.

So yeah, the Land is in all of us and with or without us. And sometimes we walk through the Land and sometimes the Land walks through us. You just have to follow the lines on the map and sooner or later the lines on the map will follow you. Failing this, there's always other parks, other towns, cities, countries, worlds, systems, galaxies, swirls of cosmic dust...and ultimately - bedtime.

UPDATE

I had stroll through the park today. I noticed that the council have posted laminated info sheets to show what it is they have done. SO, mystery solved. They weren't exactly weeds they were wildflowers, and it just took some more sunshine and a heavy rainfall to make them full bloom. And what a blooming sight they are too. Large daisies, tiny sunflowers, purple knights templer, and much much more, dotted with poppies.

note to self:must buy a digital camera soon, before the last summer bloom.

[jackgiantkiller]

Time is relative to mass and velosity so a mathamatical formula should be able to work out how far away the other earth, the land is on that dilates time to equal the differant pasage of time between the two earths. but I think its between Oz and wonderland.

[Krazy Kat]

Time is relative to mass and velosity so a mathamatical formula should be able to work out how far away the other earth, the land is on that dilates time to equal the differant pasage of time between the two earths. but I think its between Oz and wonderland.

QB tm