First time chrons reader...starting with RotE?

[Menolly]

I understand much of the choice of cover art and marketing for RotE and FR had to do with trying to bring new readers to the chrons. But seriously, does anyone here think an appreciation for all that is going on and an understanding, either pro (LA), con (THOOLAH) or pending (OPAL), can be formed based solely on RotE's What Has Gone Before?

I must admit, when told of someone reading RotE that way, with no previous input from the First or Second Chrons at all, I find it to be inconceivable to me. To not hear of the caamora in Seareach...to not hear of Trell's attempt at a Ritual of Desecration...to not learn of the L-rds, especially Mhorham with his insight in to the Oath of Peace...to not know Foamfollower or Pitchwife...to not read of the how and why the rape of Lena occurred...to not have even met TC in any way, shape or form...

Do you think it can be done and fully appreciated?

[wayfriend]

While I have not heard of anyone who has read the Final Chronicles before any other books in the series, I have heard of one fellow who read the Final Chronicles without having read the earlier books for over twenty years. Here is his description of the result: link

In short, Barnetto declared the process "idiotic".

[Vraith]

I understand much of the choice of cover art and marketing for RotE and FR had to do with trying to bring new readers to the chrons. But seriously, does anyone here think an appreciation for all that is going on and an understanding, either pro (LA), con (THOOLAH) or pending (OPAL), can be formed based solely on RotE's What Has Gone Before?

I must admit, when told of someone reading RotE that way, with no previous input from the First or Second Chrons at all, I find it to be inconceivable to me. To not hear of the caamora in Seareach...to not hear of Trell's attempt at a Ritual of Desecration...to not learn of the L-rds, especially Mhorham with his insight in to the Oath of Peace...to not know Foamfollower or Pitchwife...to not read of the how and why the rape of Lena occurred...to not have even met TC in any way, shape or form...

Do you think it can be done and fully appreciated?

No, it can't.

[Relayer]

While I have not heard of anyone who has read the Final Chronicles before any other books in the series, I have heard of one fellow who read the Final Chronicles without having read the earlier books for over twenty years. Here is his description of the result: link

In short, Barnetto declared the process "idiotic".

Well, I can claim to have done something similar... I stumbled upon Runes at B&N one night and (after recovering from the shock and retrieving my jaw from the floor) began reading the next day. It had probably been at least 10 years since I'd read the earlier books, and I didn't know about the Watch. Fortunately I'd read them all at least a few times before then so I remembered most of the history, if not all the details and nuances.

I wouldn't call my experience like that of Barnetto; the challenge for me was getting my mind and heart back into the world of Donaldson... his writing style, the way people think and feel in world of the Land, etc. I don't think that ever really happened during that first read.

I used to wonder what it would have been like for someone who started with the Wounded Land. I can't imagine how they would've had the same appreciation as the rest of us, and I probably think so even more for someone who starts with ROTE.

edit to add: I just (finally) watched last year's Star Trek reboot a couple of nights ago with my wife, who pretty much knows nothing about Trek except the obvious cultural things like "Beam me up Scotty." We had to keep stopping the movie so I could explain the significance of, well, just about everything, especially in the first hour or so. I imagine that's what it would be like for someone who hadn't read the earlier books.

[wayfriend]

edit to add: I just (finally) watched last year's Star Trek reboot a couple of nights ago with my wife, who pretty much knows nothing about Trek except the obvious cultural things like "Beam me up Scotty." We had to keep stopping the movie so I could explain the significance of, well, just about everything, especially in the first hour or so. I imagine that's what it would be like for someone who hadn't read the earlier books.

Heh. Same experience, but different wife. At one point, I said, that guy's gonna die. My wife says, how do you know? Red shirt, I say. She makes a comment about my sanity. Then the guy dies. I hear spluttering: Wait .. what? ... how? I grin.

[Barnetto]

While I have not heard of anyone who has read the Final Chronicles before any other books in the series, I have heard of one fellow who read the Final Chronicles without having read the earlier books for over twenty years. Here is his description of the result: link

In short, Barnetto declared the process "idiotic".

Just to confirm that it's clear to me that they cannot be fully appreciated without a (relatively) recent read of the earlier Chronicles. Can you read them and get some enjoyment, well a qualified "yes" - perhaps it's actually worse if you have read them so long ago that you are aware that there is so much that you have forgotten (ie my original position).

It's a bit like old Donald Rumsfeld's (unfairly) maligned "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns". The known unknowns (perhaps "known forgottens") are going to worry and bug you much more than any unknown unknowns....

[Relayer]

Heh. Same experience, but different wife. At one point, I said, that guy's gonna die. My wife says, how do you know? Red shirt, I say. She makes a comment about my sanity. Then the guy dies. I hear spluttering: Wait .. what? ... how? I grin.

LOL, I told her the exact same thing!!

[dlbpharmd]

edit to add: I just (finally) watched last year's Star Trek reboot a couple of nights ago with my wife, who pretty much knows nothing about Trek except the obvious cultural things like "Beam me up Scotty." We had to keep stopping the movie so I could explain the significance of, well, just about everything, especially in the first hour or so. I imagine that's what it would be like for someone who hadn't read the earlier books.

Heh. Same experience, but different wife. At one point, I said, that guy's gonna die. My wife says, how do you know? Red shirt, I say. She makes a comment about my sanity. Then the guy dies. I hear spluttering: Wait .. what? ... how? I grin.

Similar with me and my wife, except she knows enough about ST for us to say "He's dead!" at the same time.

[Hiro]

It is an interesting question. Although more of a thought experiment for me. I think the question can be rephrased as:

'Can Runes be enjoyed on its own, without reading the preceding books?'

I would be interested in the answer from people who did read Runes on their own.

[Savor Dam]

I guess I better weigh in, since it was an offline conversation with Menolly that prompted her to start this thread.

For 25 years, I have tried intermittently to get Dam-sel to read the Chrons, but it had never engaged her. During the past week, I have tried a new approach that has met with some greater success. We were on a lengthy driving trip and I had packed Runes so I could start the re-read in preparation for this fall's release of AATE. During one of her driving shifts, I asked her if I could read to her. Skipping over the WHGB, I dove into the Prolog and read the entire section to her.

I am no Scott Brick, but I know the material well enough to do a pretty good reading. It worked for her, and the intensity of the prolog (along with the affinity she felt for Linden as a professional and a mother of a child with a major disability) was enough to finally engage her interest.

I followed up with the WHGB and some further explanations, then during my shift she read to me from the first chapters in the Land, through the capture of Linden and Anele by the Haruchai.

Yes, of course I will acquaint her with the wonders of the First and Second Chrons -- the Unhomed, their fate, and the caamora TC provides them. Ranyhyn and Ramen. Bloodguard and Lords. The Oath of Peace and why it had to be reinterpreted. Lena, her parents and her daughter. Sunder and Hollian. Permanence at rest and in motion. All of it, all in good time!

My point, which Menolly (apparently among others) does not yet quite agree with, is that there are other paths to full appreciation of the Chrons than starting at page one of LFB and proceeding straight through in order. I came to the Chrons by that approach over 30 years ago, but could not get my wife to walk that road. Now, at last, she is willingly venturing into the Land. To me, that is more important than insisting on a traditional route.

Menolly, of all people, should understand that Dam-sel and I do not always take the conventional approach to things...

[Vraith]

Hmmm...that's a slightly different question than what I interpreted. With the Chron's, I started at the beginning [I always try to...]
In other series where, for whatever reason, I didn't: things as complicated and interesting as this one, I can't finish, have to stop and go back to others first [so I guess it does successfully spark my interest.]
When I don't stop, it makes the earlier works less satisfying: too many endings I already know...a serious loss of dynamic/tension...and character developement is damaged when you already know what they'll become.

[Menolly]

Menolly, of all people, should understand that Dam-sel and I do not always take the conventional approach to things...

bah, I appreciate the unconventionality in some things...a lot.

But I still think Dam-sel will not have a full appreciation of what she is becoming emerged in. How can one fall in love with The Land as it is portrayed in Runes? Linden and Jeremiah may grab her interest now; when y'all get to the midpoint of FR I'm thinking you may have some remorse on your hands to deal with. I know I had a very tough time with that.

[Savor Dam]

Rest assured that before we leave the Stonedown in Runes, we will have gone back to LFB and experienced that story through Covenant's departure with Atarian for Revelstone. And so on...

I agree that my flashback approach is not perfect. Again, I would rather that Dam-sel has at least this flawed understanding of the story that we treasure than have her continue to have no grounding in it at all.

[aliantha]

I am of two minds about this idea.

1) By starting with Runes, you're effectively doing what Steven Erikson does throughout the Malazan books -- dropping the reader into a story in progress and having him/her catch on as best he/she can. It seems to work okay for Erikson, altho it's hella confusing for the first couple of books (and a few thereafter!). Certainly it can be done.

2) You know, SD, that you run a very real risk that Dam-sel will kill you when she discovers the difference in writing style between the First and Final Chrons. That said, tho, I wonder. We here all fell in love with the Chrons in part because of the style of the First and Second Chrons, and many of us have been disappointed by the changes in style in the Final Chrons. I wonder whether a reader who's totally new to the series would be as disappointed with the new books as some who've read the earlier books. You'll have to keep us posted on that.

[Savor Dam]

Aliantha, I run the risk every day that Dam-sel will kill me. Assuredly she is given ample provocation!
Nevertheless, I am blessed that she accepts (for the most part) me as I am, as I was, and as I will be.

[touches wood that such miracles continue]

[wayfriend]

The biggest problem I see with this approach is that the plotlines are all spoiled by reading the later books first.

I can imagine reading Coercri to someone, thinking it might impress them enough to read the whole series. But then, imagine how reading LFB and TIW would be affected by knowing the fate of the Giants? In my mind, the reader lost something that way. They lost the suspense (and, with it, empathy) in the material that comes before. And then they lose some of the impact of reading it without all the background.

Sure, you can do it. But I think you lose a lot in this way. I'm not sure that there can be anything that makes up for what is lost.

And you can only read the Chronicles the first time once.

(Imagine knowning that Vain and Findail will make a new Staff before reading the Second Chronicles. Yikes!)

[Barnetto]

The biggest problem I see with this approach is that the plotlines are all spoiled by reading the later books first.

I can imagine reading Coercri to someone, thinking it might impress them enough to read the whole series. But then, imagine how reading LFB and TIW would be affected by knowing the fate of the Giants? In my mind, the reader lost something that way. They lost the suspense (and, with it, empathy) in the material that comes before. And then they lose some of the impact of reading it without all the background.

Sure, you can do it. But I think you lose a lot in this way. I'm not sure that there can be anything that makes up for what is lost.

And you can only read the Chronicles the first time once.

(Imagine knowning that Vain and Findail will make a new Staff before reading the Second Chronicles. Yikes!)

I do essentially agree with you - the sense of discovery cannot be replicated.

And although, when rereading the Chronicles after 20 plus years, recalling at least the major plot spoilers did not lessen my enjoyment one jot, I have a feeling that, for example, the impact of elements such as the white gold caamora were so much more powerful because those were the very elements that I had not retained any memory of.

[Menolly]

The biggest problem I see with this approach is that the plotlines are all spoiled by reading the later books first.

I can imagine reading Coercri to someone, thinking it might impress them enough to read the whole series. But then, imagine how reading LFB and TIW would be affected by knowing the fate of the Giants? In my mind, the reader lost something that way. They lost the suspense (and, with it, empathy) in the material that comes before. And then they lose some of the impact of reading it without all the background.

Sure, you can do it. But I think you lose a lot in this way. I'm not sure that there can be anything that makes up for what is lost.

And you can only read the Chronicles the first time once.

(Imagine knowning that Vain and Findail will make a new Staff before reading the Second Chronicles. Yikes!)

*emphatically nodding*

I knew someone would better phrase what my own concerns were regarding this approach. I am thinking this is what I meant by "appreciating" The Last Chrons.

Again, thanks way.

[krillarbran]

um... the simple answer is no.

longer answer is thatyou can read runes of the earth without the reading the other chrons, but you wont truly understand the plot or the characters (especially being that, in my opinion, RotE is to me has the most boring first 300 pages, until part II). Even with the What has gone before prologue, it doesn't give enough information, it is just a refresher.

I believe I wouldnt appreciate RotE for what it is about if I had not read the previous two Chrons. Its like reading Harry Potter series backwards.....

[ninjaboy]

... what's "Harry Potter"?