Another "what-if" Question on the GI

[thewormoftheworld'send]

- Im just gonna [sic] keep this question as short and too [sic] the point as I can possibly get. Do you feel that if Thomas Covenant had chosen to stay in The Land after "The Power that Preserves" that Lord Foul would not have been able to aquire [sic] the power to create the sunbane? Let me put it this way, After [sic] TC is killed he turns into the Wild Magic and is able to defeat Foul that way, But [sic] if he had stayed in The Land, and died thousands of years before the events of "The Wounded Land" do you think he would have been able to stop Foul before it ever happenned? [sic]

Donaldson's answer is "no." But I think everyone is missing the point here. White gold would also have remained in the Land after Covenant eventually died a natural death. Without Covenant, this ring lacks power to bring down the Arch. It would have been necessary for Foul to somehow break the Law of Life, bring Covenant back from the Dead, and restore his ring to him. Sounds like an interesting story to me.

-Edit- Was it the Law of Life or the Law of Death that Caer-Caveral violated?

[sindatur]

- Im just gonna [sic] keep this question as short and too [sic] the point as I can possibly get. Do you feel that if Thomas Covenant had chosen to stay in The Land after "The Power that Preserves" that Lord Foul would not have been able to aquire [sic] the power to create the sunbane? Let me put it this way, After [sic] TC is killed he turns into the Wild Magic and is able to defeat Foul that way, But [sic] if he had stayed in The Land, and died thousands of years before the events of "The Wounded Land" do you think he would have been able to stop Foul before it ever happenned? [sic]

Donaldson's answer is "no." But I think everyone is missing the point here. White gold would also have remained in the Land after Covenant eventually died a natural death. Without Covenant, this ring lacks power to bring down the Arch. It would have been necessary for Foul to somehow break the Law of Life, bring Covenant back from the Dead, and restore his ring to him. Sounds like an interesting story to me.

-Edit- Was it the Law of Life or the Law of Death that Caer-Caveral violated?

You've got it the right way around. Elena broke the Law of Death, Caer-Caveral broke the Law of Life

[thewormoftheworld'send]

- Im just gonna [sic] keep this question as short and too [sic] the point as I can possibly get. Do you feel that if Thomas Covenant had chosen to stay in The Land after "The Power that Preserves" that Lord Foul would not have been able to aquire [sic] the power to create the sunbane? Let me put it this way, After [sic] TC is killed he turns into the Wild Magic and is able to defeat Foul that way, But [sic] if he had stayed in The Land, and died thousands of years before the events of "The Wounded Land" do you think he would have been able to stop Foul before it ever happenned? [sic]

Donaldson's answer is "no." But I think everyone is missing the point here. White gold would also have remained in the Land after Covenant eventually died a natural death. Without Covenant, this ring lacks power to bring down the Arch. It would have been necessary for Foul to somehow break the Law of Life, bring Covenant back from the Dead, and restore his ring to him. Sounds like an interesting story to me.

-Edit- Was it the Law of Life or the Law of Death that Caer-Caveral violated?

You've got it the right way around. Elena broke the Law of Death, Caer-Caveral broke the Law of Life

Ok thanks.

I've noticed that Donaldson does not engage in re-writing his stories based on fanciful premises invented by his readers. He always replies formulaically: everything breaks down, or there is no story left to tell, or he might say the Despiser wins.

In this case, Donaldson and "anonymous" are assuming that Covenant dies a natural death in the Land. But we don't know the long-term effects of wearing white gold in the Land. For all we know, he could end up as a more-or-less benevolent Sméagol: wizened and ancient, seemingly forever sustained by the ring. If he lives long enough to see the return of the Despiser, then breaking the Law of Life would not be an issue.

[Akasri]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

[sindatur]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

That's always been my impression.

Law of Death broken because she disturbed the dead from their resting. Law of Life broken, because Hollian (AND Anele) were brought back to life.

[Orlion]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

That's always been my impression.

Law of Death broken because she disturbed the dead from their resting. Law of Life broken, because Hollian (AND Anele) were brought back to life.

I like to look at it like this: the Law of Death seperated the dead from the world of the living. Breaking it allowed them to wander the living world. The Law of Life prevented the return of the dead to a living form, since that's not how life works. You're not suppose to live,die, revive, die, revive, etc. That's against the nature of Life.

[sindatur]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

That's always been my impression.

Law of Death broken because she disturbed the dead from their resting. Law of Life broken, because Hollian (AND Anele) were brought back to life.

I like to look at it like this: the Law of Death seperated the dead from the world of the living. Breaking it allowed them to wander the living world. The Law of Life prevented the return of the dead to a living form, since that's not how life works. You're not suppose to live,die, revive, die, revive, etc. That's against the nature of Life.

OH...YEAH, that makes perfect sense too

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

That's always been my impression.

Law of Death broken because she disturbed the dead from their resting. Law of Life broken, because Hollian (AND Anele) were brought back to life.

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

I find it impressive that Donaldson looks at magic a certain different kind of way. I don't know of any precedent in all of fantasy literature. Sure, magic is commonplace in fantasy, but in other fantasy fiction (that I know of) it does not have the power to break laws of nature permanently and irreparably.

[Thorhammerhand]

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

Not sure that I agree with that. From what I understand the Law of Life gives the dead some level of free-will/autonomy. TC, in WGW, is not brought back to life to stand between LF and the Arch. Rather his ghost had the ability to stand, and remain, in the way, protecting the Arch.

HL Kevin, HL Elena and the Giant (Kinslaughterer, I think) were brought back to follow orders, {lack of autonomy since the LoL was/is still intact at this point} where as TC's return is different.

[Orlion]

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

Not sure that I agree with that. From what I understand the Law of Life gives the dead some level of free-will/autonomy. TC, in WGW, is not brought back to life to stand between LF and the Arch. Rather his ghost had the ability to stand, and remain, in the way, protecting the Arch.

HL Kevin, HL Elena and the Giant (Kinslaughterer, I think) were brought back to follow orders, {lack of autonomy since the LoL was/is still intact at this point} where as TC's return is different.

A nice distinction, I think. Especially considering that Elena, after she had died, is able to handle material objects like the Staff of Law and the whitegold ring.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

Not sure that I agree with that. From what I understand the Law of Life gives the dead some level of free-will/autonomy. TC, in WGW, is not brought back to life to stand between LF and the Arch. Rather his ghost had the ability to stand, and remain, in the way, protecting the Arch.

HL Kevin, HL Elena and the Giant (Kinslaughterer, I think) were brought back to follow orders, {lack of autonomy since the LoL was/is still intact at this point} where as TC's return is different.

Kevin was controlled by either the Power of Command or the Illearth Stone. He was Commanded to attack Lord Foul, whereupon Foul then Commanded him to kill Elena. His obedience was not due to a lack of free-will caused by being a spirit.

Also recall that in TPTP the shade of Elena was illuminated by a green hue. She was also Commanded by the Illearth Stone. She did not lack free-will per se. And just before she vanished she cried out to Covenant to "strike a blow for me." That came from her own free-will and desires.

Covenant's shade was not under any such edicts. He was free to pursue any course that a spirit is capable of pursuing.

[Orlion]

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

Not sure that I agree with that. From what I understand the Law of Life gives the dead some level of free-will/autonomy. TC, in WGW, is not brought back to life to stand between LF and the Arch. Rather his ghost had the ability to stand, and remain, in the way, protecting the Arch.

HL Kevin, HL Elena and the Giant (Kinslaughterer, I think) were brought back to follow orders, {lack of autonomy since the LoL was/is still intact at this point} where as TC's return is different.

Kevin was controlled by either the Power of Command or the Illearth Stone. He was Commanded to attack Lord Foul, whereupon Foul then Commanded him to kill Elena. His obedience was not due to a lack of free-will caused by being a spirit.

Also recall that in TPTP the shade of Elena was illuminated by a green hue. She was also Commanded by the Illearth Stone. She did not lack free-will per se. And just before she vanished she cried out to Covenant to "strike a blow for me." That came from her own free-will and desires.

Covenant's shade was not under any such edicts. He was free to pursue any course that a spirit is capable of pursuing.

If I recal correctly, that was only because Foul in his passion forgot he could command a shade. I seem to recall that Covenant said he could have been sent away by a command (in fact, he had to obey Findail). It seems that spirits are only free if no one commands them. Once that happens, though, they must follow the stronger command... or something like that...it seems to get a little complicated at that point (like would we say the Illearth Stone is a stronger power than the Power of Command? I think not! But it was stronger than Kevin's ability to fulfill his task)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Not sure that I agree with that. From what I understand the Law of Life gives the dead some level of free-will/autonomy. TC, in WGW, is not brought back to life to stand between LF and the Arch. Rather his ghost had the ability to stand, and remain, in the way, protecting the Arch.

HL Kevin, HL Elena and the Giant (Kinslaughterer, I think) were brought back to follow orders, {lack of autonomy since the LoL was/is still intact at this point} where as TC's return is different.

Kevin was controlled by either the Power of Command or the Illearth Stone. He was Commanded to attack Lord Foul, whereupon Foul then Commanded him to kill Elena. His obedience was not due to a lack of free-will caused by being a spirit.

Also recall that in TPTP the shade of Elena was illuminated by a green hue. She was also Commanded by the Illearth Stone. She did not lack free-will per se. And just before she vanished she cried out to Covenant to "strike a blow for me." That came from her own free-will and desires.

Covenant's shade was not under any such edicts. He was free to pursue any course that a spirit is capable of pursuing.

If I recal correctly, that was only because Foul in his passion forgot he could command a shade.

Good call!

I seem to recall that Covenant said he could have been sent away by a command (in fact, he had to obey Findail). It seems that spirits are only free if no one commands them. Once that happens, though, they must follow the stronger command... or something like that...it seems to get a little complicated at that point (like would we say the Illearth Stone is a stronger power than the Power of Command? I think not! But it was stronger than Kevin's ability to fulfill his task)

Right on. Shades can also be commanded through mystic incantations of some sort, and not just through banes or the use of EarthBlood. But aside from that, they do have free-will. As for Kevin, a mere shade does not have the power to defeat Lord Foul, not even the shade of an old Lord. Foul mastered him easily (according to Kevin himself), and then Commanded him back to the cavern using the Illearth Stone. Recall this line:

Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

Elena's Command did not grant Kevin the Power to defeat Foul, it only Commanded him to make the attempt.

[Thorhammerhand]

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

LF was able to override the POC and send Kevin back to kill Elena, probably due to the fact that LF is outside the scope of the POC, (remember Amok's warning).

IMHO, earthpower drives the (un)summoning of spectres, leading to the congregation of the dead in Anderlain. The breaking of the LoL allows them to move around in the physical world

Spoiler

but no-one in the post sunbane world had the training/ability to summon them. (who would really want to anyway?)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

Failure? How could anybody know? The Kevin incident was a first. Perhaps the Dead have all the power in the world, or none.

LF was able to override the POC and send Kevin back to kill Elena, probably due to the fact that LF is outside the scope of the POC, (remember Amok's warning).

Technically, Kevin, under the sway of such an absolute Command, should have been compelled by Earthpower to battle Foul for all eternity or until someone wins - or until Kevin is counter-Commanded by a power from outside the Earth. The Banes originate from beyond the Arch.

Elena may have thought that Kevin cannot be defeated because he is already dead, a shade cannot be killed. No other command or incantation should have swayed Kevin from his task. The problem was
the Bane's origin from beyond the Arch which supersedes even the EarthBlood. Amok did not happen to mention the power of Banes.

IMHO, earthpower drives the (un)summoning of spectres, leading to the congregation of the dead in Anderlain. The breaking of the LoL allows them to move around in the physical world

Spoiler

but no-one in the post sunbane world had the training/ability to summon them. (who would really want to anyway?)

Dead Kevin stated the Elena had opened the way for evil:

You have unleashed measureless opportunities for evil upon the Earth-and the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! The Illearth Stone consumes me. Fight, fool! I am Commanded to destroy you!

So apparently someone would want to summon the Dead, according to Kevin. Mainly Despite.

[Orlion]

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

Failure? How could anybody know? The Kevin incident was a first. Perhaps the Dead have all the power in the world, or none.

LF was able to override the POC and send Kevin back to kill Elena, probably due to the fact that LF is outside the scope of the POC, (remember Amok's warning).

Technically, Kevin, under the sway of such an absolute Command, should have been compelled by Earthpower to battle Foul for all eternity or until someone wins - or until Kevin is counter-Commanded by a power from outside the Earth. The Banes originate from beyond the Arch.

Elena may have thought that Kevin cannot be defeated because he is already dead, a shade cannot be killed. No other command or incantation should have swayed Kevin from his task. The problem was
the Bane's origin from beyond the Arch which supersedes even the EarthBlood. Amok did not happen to mention the power of Banes.

IMHO, earthpower drives the (un)summoning of spectres, leading to the congregation of the dead in Anderlain. The breaking of the LoL allows them to move around in the physical world

Spoiler

but no-one in the post sunbane world had the training/ability to summon them. (who would really want to anyway?)

Dead Kevin stated the Elena had opened the way for evil:

You have unleashed measureless opportunities for evil upon the Earth-and the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! The Illearth Stone consumes me. Fight, fool! I am Commanded to destroy you!

So apparently someone would want to summon the Dead, according to Kevin. Mainly Despite.

We're getting some impressive analysie here, guys!
One word on the Illearth Stone: It seems that its main purpose is to warp or pervert anything of Earthpower. You'll notice that Kevin said he was "Commanded" with a capital 'c' to destroy Elena. The Command wasn't done away with, it was corrupted.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

Failure? How could anybody know? The Kevin incident was a first. Perhaps the Dead have all the power in the world, or none.

LF was able to override the POC and send Kevin back to kill Elena, probably due to the fact that LF is outside the scope of the POC, (remember Amok's warning).

Technically, Kevin, under the sway of such an absolute Command, should have been compelled by Earthpower to battle Foul for all eternity or until someone wins - or until Kevin is counter-Commanded by a power from outside the Earth. The Banes originate from beyond the Arch.

Elena may have thought that Kevin cannot be defeated because he is already dead, a shade cannot be killed. No other command or incantation should have swayed Kevin from his task. The problem was
the Bane's origin from beyond the Arch which supersedes even the EarthBlood. Amok did not happen to mention the power of Banes.

IMHO, earthpower drives the (un)summoning of spectres, leading to the congregation of the dead in Anderlain. The breaking of the LoL allows them to move around in the physical world

Spoiler

but no-one in the post sunbane world had the training/ability to summon them. (who would really want to anyway?)

Dead Kevin stated the Elena had opened the way for evil:

You have unleashed measureless opportunities for evil upon the Earth-and the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! The Illearth Stone consumes me. Fight, fool! I am Commanded to destroy you!

So apparently someone would want to summon the Dead, according to Kevin. Mainly Despite.

We're getting some impressive analysie here, guys!
One word on the Illearth Stone: It seems that its main purpose is to warp or pervert anything of Earthpower. You'll notice that Kevin said he was "Commanded" with a capital 'c' to destroy Elena. The Command wasn't done away with, it was corrupted.

That seems likely. The capital C in Foul's own Command didn't escape my notice, but its meaning is ambiguous. But why wasn't Foul able to Command practically anybody with the Stone? Because they first have to be Commanded by EarthBlood.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I should add that Amok did mention the Illearth Stone where he warned about the dangers of the PoC.

If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land.

So the stone itself originated on the Earth, but the evil was planted there at the Earth's creation.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The effect of the Illearth Stone on the Command is somewhat like the Venom which infected Covenant and made his ring's power turn black.

[peter]

Assuming the passage of time for TC in the Land passed at the same rate that time passes in his 'real world' (ie the place where Haven farm etc is) he would live a greatley extended life in the Land seeing off even Giants and Lords by the score. My question is would he have still been alive in the Land at the time of the development of the sunbane etc thereby rendering WOTWE's and annonymous's premise that he would be long dead and gone null and void. Where would he have been in the Land's history at the time of his death assuming him the usual threee score and ten plus a bit. Can any one tell me?