Pantheon: The Third Age - Rules and Comments Thread

[I'm Murrin]

What is that unpleasant noise I hear?

[[Syl]]

Syl, I had nothing in place whatsoever before you told me you were launching this turn. And I have no intention of damaging the Ark...

Then this will be interesting. I can't wait to see what you're up to. Ensuring a peaceful journey, perhaps?

I do hope someone tried to interfere with the Ark or its contents, though. I'm very curious to see if the idea works - or knowing Xar, how it works when it doesn't do quite what I intended. I mean, it would suck if my countermeasures were insufficient, but then, I'm retiring Simjen and eager for p4, so... *shrug*

[Madadeva]

What is that unpleasant noise I hear?

[Goatkiller666]

You also realise all the mass-organised efforts and working together are the reason Xar has to fill the game with so many outside threats, right?

If I had to guess, the mass-organized stuff is only a metagaming response to the idea that the whole game could end. And that only in the last few turns. I can assure you that if the world weren't on the cusp of destruction, I'd be PERFECTLY happy to stir up some god-on-god trouble of my own. More than enough for Xar to just sit back in his dark tower, cackling his evil laugh, and wringing his hands. There would probably be menacing flashes of lightning in the background, while he muttered "Excellent. Dance, my little godlings."

Only he'd probably do it in Italian, and you wouldn't want to see what abuses I could put that language through if I tried to write it properly.

Just ask Fist. I have like 7 turns worth of "Once we save the world, I can finally enact my evil plan!"

[Dread Poet Jethro]

What is that unpleasant noise I hear?

You hear Goatkiller
Trying to speak Italian
Just as he warned us

[variol son]

You also realise all the mass-organised efforts and working together are the reason Xar has to fill the game with so many outside threats, right?

If I had to guess, the mass-organized stuff is only a metagaming response to the idea that the whole game could end. And that only in the last few turns. I can assure you that if the world weren't on the cusp of destruction, I'd be PERFECTLY happy to stir up some god-on-god trouble of my own. More than enough for Xar to just sit back in his dark tower, cackling his evil laugh, and wringing his hands. There would probably be menacing flashes of lightning in the background, while he muttered "Excellent. Dance, my little godlings."

Only he'd probably do it in Italian, and you wouldn't want to see what abuses I could put that language through if I tried to write it properly.

Just ask Fist. I have like 7 turns worth of "Once we save the world, I can finally enact my evil plan!"

I also had some interesting ideas for Anaya, but it's too hard to plan for anything when the world is constantly about to end without completely re-writing the character, and not being able to plan and take her in the direction I'd like to has made the game less fun than it was.

[I'm Murrin]

Yeah, there are a couple of things that lessen the fun of creating these characters - 1, that nothing you do is ever completely effective, especially against other players, and 2, there is rarely an opportunity to rest from confronting random events and start something yourself.

[Madadeva]

I would agree. It might be helpful for P4 that random events (if they do occur at all) only occur if a diety (and their interaction with others) don't have enough activity.

This approach would allow those dieties with deep plans for their gods and followers to focus on their plans and interaction with others rather than the random event. Those dieties with less self-generated activity (or activity caused by others), would have a normalizing amount of random events to deal with.

Also, I would suggest keeping random events more to natural catastrophes or external actions rather than god x attacks / undermines god y - that may be counter to plans god x and y are developing themselves.

[Menolly]

Shouldn't these suggestions go in to the planning and discussing the future thread?
...please?

[I'm Murrin]

I'm just commenting on the current game. I haven't suggested anything.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, there are a couple of things that lessen the fun of creating these characters - 1, that nothing you do is ever completely effective, especially against other players.

Who can know what kinds of defenses are in place anywhere? And all of our strengths can often help overcome acts against us, even if those strengths are not defenses.

2, there is rarely an opportunity to rest from confronting random events and start something yourself.

If you didn't want random events, you shoulda stayed on Narie.

[Xar]

The turn - and the comments here - put me in a bit of a quandary... Since you know what many have done (step into the Mists), I don't think it's a spoiler that there are only a few ways that can be processed, based on previous lore.

Basically, here is the thing. The comments here suggest that several players are unhappy with the way things are going now and with the belief that nothing can be done to stop Eiran's end. Personally, I won't say anything as to whether it is possible to save Eiran or not - what matters is the perception of the players, after all - but the fact that half of them entered the Mists to seek help is an indication of the general feeling. At this point, the fact that some of the catastrophes have been, in fact, initiated by gods does not matter either.

In-game lore suggests that the players entering the Mists should be unable to find the Allfather or (in the worst case) be destroyed by the Allfather. However, in the first case nothing changes (except perhaps that it would feel like I'm actively trying to keep you from fixing things), and in the second case, more than half of the players are out of the game (and it's definitely too late for any hypothetical new deities to do something worthwhile).

Even if I decide that the Allfather appears, listens to the plea and decides to act without killing the gods, it would only remove the Bleeds, leaving everything else in place - which means most of the problems would still be there - but at the same time it would be establishing a precedent. Also, following this option goes against in-game lore regarding the AllFather.

I'll also add that I don't want to run a game if half the players feel that the whole end of the world is being forced down their throats whether they like it or not - but I also don't want to retcon the whole game, since many things happening now are the results of actions players took earlier in the game.

This leaves me with a few options. I could, of course, just say "allright, game's over, on to P4"; it's perhaps the simplest, but also the cheapest solution.

There are two other solutions, which would allow the game to continue while solving the problems outlined above; however, the main point here is that if many players are bothered by the current world situation (regardless of whether the Bleeds disappear and/or the gods in the Mists return), then that's not going to change so easily. On the other hand, I'm not going to erase catastrophes from existence (such as the Maw invasion) - they must be dealt with in-game.

Therefore, in the interest of fairness, I'd like to ask you honestly whether it is really your feeling that the world is doomed and there's nothing that can be done about it. Especially if you feel it's something that's being forced down your throats (i.e. by me). Depending on the responses I receive, I'm going to decide what to do and which solution to use - feel free to discuss this point here, but you don't have to give me your answer publicly - if you wish to send me a pm with your answer and comments, feel free to do so.

Thanks!

[Madadeva]

I don't necessarily think you are forcing suff on us ... but it does feel like we are backed into a corner. It does feel like the end of the world is inevitable. So, us all going after the AllFather (or pleading in the case of the twig ) seems like a fun way to go out in style. [While other dieties are leaving with their followers.]

To me it is less a disatisfaction with you as GM or Eiran (although we do have suggestions for differences in P4) and more a desire to end Eiran with flair ... rather than just abrubptly stopping.

So my advice ... stay within the Lore and finish us up in style - and on to P4! Or do something creative and revamp P3 if you think there is still much to do!

[I'm Murrin]

Honestly I don't feel like the ending is inevitable; I think the current state makes me feel like the game could just continue forever in a state of almost-destroyed, ie, that the number of problems we're faced with all at once and over the turns put us in a situation where it is possible to confront them, but doing so only gives us room to then confront the next, equally threatening one, without reprieve.

[Goatkiller666]

So, at this point, it does seem like nothing we do can prevent the end of the world by the Bleeds. Other than them, I think the rest of the world's problems are within our ability to correct.

As far as how the game feels, I know that it certainly got a lot less fun once I "realized" that I was powerless to divert the end. And Xar, while I'm all about being true to the game, the character of the AllFather has been pretty fickle in general. And even just an OOC statement from you that all of the problems COULD be fixed would be enough to get my heart back in the game.

But staring at an unsolvable problem and the idea of a slow lingering death, I'd kind of rather just wrap P3 and roll on to P4. Maybe spend some time tying up everybody's storyline, since I know how Menolly would respond to an abrupt ending, but I'm already working out my potential P4 character idea.

[I'm Murrin]

Just give all of your power to Bel, and Eiran will have peace for eternity.

[[Syl]]

Make all the gods fight to the death. The last one standing is allowed to speak to the Allfather.

Ok, seriously. Here is where I think the problem is:

... the fact that some of the catastrophes have been, in fact, initiated by gods does not matter either.

Note the plural nouns. A catastrophe is easy (wrong word, really, but will work for now) to solve. A troublesome god... you can deal with. But these kinds of things usually take the whole Pantheon to solve (which explains both gods - a way to solve major problems/questions that are greater than men - and trickster figures - which exploit the weaknesses/foibles of gods but ultimately unites them or otherwise codifies their conduct). Any one of these things usually define a pantheon. Multiple ones... if it doesn't wreck the game, it doesn't leave a player much time to develop their god's character outside of a purely antagonistic sense (what is the character against/stand for).

To be fair, this should not be construed to mean that gods shouldn't be challenged. The little hurdles that pop up are a great way to develop a god's character. They should not define it, however. Simjen serves as a great example of the former, but Aarklar was more the latter (which may be kind of ironic, considering I'm retiring Simjen because I don't know what else to do with him at this point other than play Mr. Fix-It).

If I have to vote, I don't think anyone will be surprised that I say wrap it up and let's go to p4.

[Fist and Faith]

The issue of the end being "forced" on us is a little complex. Yes, Mox did it. The problem is that it's set up in such a way that Mox could do it. If Mox, or Bel, or Eztlicoatl want to destroy the world, they should have to build and build their strength until they can do it themselves. I'm already on record as saying that I am not happy with the doomsday devices on Eiran. Neph made a good attempt at it in P1. Yeah, he only caused massive damage. But he did it the old-fashioned way - he earned it. By his own hand, he Shattered the world. Great job, truth be told. He didn't hit the self-destruct button.

HOWEVER, I knew it was part of the game before we started, and I happily joined. And I'd do it again. And I will, even if such things are in P4. Obviously, I think Pantheon is the best thing going. I don't like this aspect of it, and wish you didn't put it in there. But I love the game.

Regarding our current situation, no, I don't think we can save the world. Zephyr, Numen, and Unknowable have each put at least a couple turns into trying to figure it out, and have failed miserably. I believe the world will be eaten by the Bleeds, and that's that.

And that's what I want the Allfather to fix. That's all I've asked for. We can deal with Bel (as Bel is about to see), and we can deal with invaders. But we can't deal with this Bleed power. If it is not beyond the game's rules, it's beyond our understanding and imagination. If you don't fix it, the game is over. (Same as TWB's acting between turns in P2. We couldn't do that, and couldn't begin to figure out how to stop him from doing it. The Allfather ended it.)

Yeah, it's a big, honkin' gamble. Ten of us walking into the Mists could easily destroy the world in an instant. Or we could all be eradicated. Or we could simply be denied and expelled.

Or the Allfather could see that such a large amount of cooperation (which involves those who could not come into the Mists because they had to stay behind and hit Bel, because, if the Allfather does cooperate, we'll have lost too much ground to him otherwise) as significant, and break with the world's lore to seal us off from the Bleeds.

That's what I'm hoping for. I'm not doing this to try to bring about the end. It's just the only thing I can think of that has a chance of stopping the Bleeds. By the time further study reveals anything, IF it reveals anything, it'll be too late.

[I'm Murrin]

Too much ground to him? What do you think Bel is doing atm? I was quite serious about him beginning the crusade by helping in the fight against the external threats, even if the actions of certain others have forced him to intervene against them this turn.

You took power out of your actions helping the world to fight someone who is, for the moment, fighting those same problems?

[Menolly]

As would probably be guessed, I am not ready for the Third Age to end. As cho's personal plea should show to the AllFather, she is more than happy to tackle all problems herself, if she had any idea what could be done to tackle them. My wish is to continue as is, with at least a goal of playing through the problems without feeling the end is inevitable.