Another "what-if" Question on the GI

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Assuming the passage of time for TC in the Land passed at the same rate that time passes in his 'real world' (ie the place where Haven farm etc is) he would live a greatley extended life in the Land seeing off even Giants and Lords by the score. My question is would he have still been alive in the Land at the time of the development of the sunbane etc thereby rendering WOTWE's and annonymous's premise that he would be long dead and gone null and void. Where would he have been in the Land's history at the time of his death assuming him the usual threee score and ten plus a bit. Can any one tell me?

That's a tough "beyond the text" question which Donaldson won't answer except by rubbing his beard with one hand and responding, "Welllll, there would be no story left to tell."

But your assumption that time moves the same in the Land as it does in the "real" world surprises me. I thought everybody knew by now that, unofficially at least, one day in the "real" world equals one year in the Land. Otherwise Linden would have woken up at the end of WGW to find a desiccated corpse of Covenant instead of one that had just barely finished dying.

[peter]

[quote="TheWormoftheWorld'sEndBut your assumption that time moves the same in the Land as it does in the "real" world surprises me. [/quote]
No, WOTWE, you're not getting what I mean. Supposing time passes for TC in the Land at the same rate as in his 'real world' - but only for TC. In other words much much more slowly. He would thus outlast all of the people in the Land in the same way that he did when he was back in his 'real' world. I just wondered how far on in the Lands story he would have made (approximatly) had he stayed there.

[Orlion]

I think what peter is trying to say is that time flows differently in Covenant's being than it does in the Land. Something like that, anyway.

[sindatur]

Seems like the answer Peter is Loooking for is, if Covenant is 35 years, and his natural life expectancy is 70, that means he's got another 35 years to live in his natural world.

If he ages in the Land, at the rate that time passes in his Natural world, that means he would expect to live in the land 35 times 365 = 12,725 years (if he had never returned to the antural world after The Power That Preserves)

[Vraith]

[ I just wondered how far on in the Lands story he would have made (approximatly) had he stayed there.

Hmm...If he stayed somehow after TPTP, and he was 30ish, that's @ 20 years our time= 7,300 years. He'd be 50-ish now, so easily could have 7,300 more...if he had good genes [say 90] he'd have 14,600 more...the oldest man on earth right now is 114, so his total possible "Land" lifetime=
30,600 years.

[peter]

Yes but where in the Lands story would he die - before the sunbane, after, somewhere in the third Chrons - where, I repeat, in the Lands history would he be at the end of his averagely long in 'real world time' life.

[Barnetto]

Off the top of my head, I think there is about 8000 years from Berek through to the present day of the Last Chronices. So, given your premise, TC would be still a middle-aged bloke by the Last Chronicles even.

(After all, there is only around 10 years between the 2nd and Last Chronicles, so he would be around 50.)

[Orlion]

Just to throw a wrench in everything... if Earthpower and Vows can keep a normal Land-lover alive for millenia without sleep, what could wild magic do?

[Krazy Kat]

Just to throw a wrench in everything... if Earthpower and Vows can keep a normal Land-lover alive for millenia without sleep, what could wild magic do?

...assuming that Covenant is able to use the wild magic. He was able to give himself a shave with the gold ring...and, his beard grows at the same rate in the Land as it does when he is home on his farm - this proves that time flows the same for Covenant whether he is here or there!

[Vraith]

Yes but where in the Lands story would he die - before the sunbane, after, somewhere in the third Chrons - where, I repeat, in the Lands history would he be at the end of his averagely long in 'real world time' life.

Long after any point we have arrived at yet. It's only been @ 20 years so far, even if he only 'lived' to age 70, that's 7,300 years in the future from start of 3rd Chrons.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think what peter is trying to say is that time flows differently in Covenant's being than it does in the Land. Something like that, anyway.

I see. It was my thought that white gold might act to preserve youth, or at least prevent death as with Gollum; or it could be that the time-order of the "real" world is preserved in Covenant's being. I don't know. Nobody from the "real" world lasts in the Land long enough to find out.

Lord Foul is a spiritual being held within the strictures of that Earth's time, but he is not affected by age because he is a spirit. Covenant was not a spirit so I think he would have been affected by aging.

[Lordsfire]

As for Kevin, a mere shade does not have the power to defeat Lord Foul, not even the shade of an old Lord. Foul mastered him easily (according to Kevin himself), and then Commanded him back to the cavern using the Illearth Stone. Recall this line:

Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

Elena's Command did not grant Kevin the Power to defeat Foul, it only Commanded him to make the attempt.

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

This doesn't sit quite well with me, because when Dead Kevin returned to fight Elena she engaged in what was described as a pretty fierce battle with him, which resulted in the destruction of Melenkurion Skyweir (among other things). To me, that says that Kevin did indeed possess a great deal of power as a specter. The only question that remains, I suppose, is did he have it when he was first summoned by Elena, or was he somehow supported by the power of the Illearth Stone?

[Krazy Kat]

As for Kevin, a mere shade does not have the power to defeat Lord Foul, not even the shade of an old Lord. Foul mastered him easily (according to Kevin himself), and then Commanded him back to the cavern using the Illearth Stone. Recall this line:

Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

Elena's Command did not grant Kevin the Power to defeat Foul, it only Commanded him to make the attempt.

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

This doesn't sit quite well with me, because when Dead Kevin returned to fight Elena she engaged in what was described as a pretty fierce battle with him, which resulted in the destruction of Melenkurion Skyweir (among other things). To me, that says that Kevin did indeed possess a great deal of power as a specter. The only question that remains, I suppose, is did he have it when he was first summoned by Elena, or was he somehow supported by the power of the Illearth Stone?

...plus, when Kevin entered and exited the chamber in Melenkurion Skyweir the door he used made a loud noise like door to a crypt. I don't believe a door in Foul's Creche would make that sound.

Does this mean he was sent to Foul's Creche via Revelstone?

[Vraith]

As for Kevin, a mere shade does not have the power to defeat Lord Foul, not even the shade of an old Lord. Foul mastered him easily (according to Kevin himself), and then Commanded him back to the cavern using the Illearth Stone. Recall this line:

Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

Elena's Command did not grant Kevin the Power to defeat Foul, it only Commanded him to make the attempt.

He (Kevin) was commanded to rise and defeat Fangthane. However Elena's failure to understand that Kevin dead did not make him more powerful.

This doesn't sit quite well with me, because when Dead Kevin returned to fight Elena she engaged in what was described as a pretty fierce battle with him, which resulted in the destruction of Melenkurion Skyweir (among other things). To me, that says that Kevin did indeed possess a great deal of power as a specter. The only question that remains, I suppose, is did he have it when he was first summoned by Elena, or was he somehow supported by the power of the Illearth Stone?

The key is he didn't know enough for Lord Foul, cuz the dead don't learn, and Earthpower is never enough to take LF anyway. [or didn't learn before the broken law, at least]. But he still had all his old knowledge, far beyond Elena's. The ONLY reason she survived even a second was she was well past Oath of Peace passion limits and she had the Staff of Law. The only thing he'd really need from the I.E. Stone is to not be dismissed for being a ghost [if Elena ever even thought of such a thing].

[jackgiantkiller]

U just ignored KK point about his beard! TC ages in the land at the lands time, he grows and decays at the land pace not his own earth, he would not have a lords expanded span he aint no student of lore, he is a paradox of power and time

[Vraith]

U just ignored KK point about his beard! TC ages in the land at the lands time, he grows and decays at the land pace not his own earth, he would not have a lords expanded span he aint no student of lore, he is a paradox of power and time

Heh...yes I did, because I thought that was the point of your question [when would he die if he aged in earth-years, not land-years].
If White Gold helps him, the answer is "who the heck knows?" if it doesn't, over 3000 years before the start of second Chron's. [I think LF took 1000 years to start corrupting, too...so at least that long before the sunbane itself as well.]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

U just ignored KK point about his beard! TC ages in the land at the lands time, he grows and decays at the land pace not his own earth, he would not have a lords expanded span he aint no student of lore, he is a paradox of power and time

I don't see KK's point about TC's beard. I don't know if that means he ages, only that his hair grows.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I see the Krazy post now. I don't see why time wouldn't flow differently for Covenant in the Land. But I don't see why he has to die a natural death eventually.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Something I've been a bit fuzzy about... Elena brought Kevin back from the dead and broke the Law of Death.

Caer Caveral brought Hollian back from the dead and broke the Law of Life.

Why did each act break a different Law? Is the difference that Hollian was actually "alive" afterwards? And Kevin was a ghost?

That's always been my impression.

Law of Death broken because she disturbed the dead from their resting. Law of Life broken, because Hollian (AND Anele) were brought back to life.

One Law prevents the dead (as shades, spirits, ghosts) from interacting with the living. The other Law brings the dead back to life.

I find it impressive that Donaldson looks at magic a certain different kind of way. I don't know of any precedent in all of fantasy literature. Sure, magic is commonplace in fantasy, but in other fantasy fiction (that I know of) it does not have the power to break laws of nature permanently and irreparably.

It's not completely analogous, but one might be akin to Lazarus, brought back from death by the power of another, and Jesus, resurrected on his own. They are the same, "death conquered," but different in means and in where the power for the act comes from.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

About commands, and Elena and Kevin.
I do think that the Law of Death was a barrier between life and death and did not set a limit on the ability to act or have power.
Both Dead Kevin and Dead Elena are expressly noted as having made decisions. Kevin not as subtle.
Foul knew a whole lot more about about the Power of Command than Elena did. He was able to craft a much more potent command for each of them than Elena did for Kevin. The question is, if so much evil was accessible to Foul once the Law was broken, why didn't he break it himself much earlier?
That should probably give you a moment's pause about how powerful the stone was, by itself, and Foul was, by himself, and how powerful both were together.
Or more succinctly, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
It cannot be just that Foul would rather operate in a way that creates despair and uses people. If he truly wants out, and he has the power to bring back the dead, than he would have simply issued the command.