stephen donaldson vs tolkien

[Angbasdil]

As others have pointed out, this isn't a contest. Both are great authors in their own way.

It's kinda funny, but I've often described TCTC as the "anti-LOTR" because the two are so different.

LOTR is about the fate of the world.
TCTC is primarily about this guy saving himself.

LOTR is filled with classical fantasy elements (e.g. wizards, elves, etc.)
TCTC is filled with stuff you've never seen before (ur-viles, cavewights, etc.)

LOTR invites one to ponder the larger deep truths, like providence, mercy and pedetermination vs. free will.
TCTC invites one to ponder the smaller deep truths, like guilt, forgiveness and passion vs. discipline.

I could go on, but the point is that comparing the two is NOT comparing apples to oranges.
It's comparing apples to cinder blocks.

I love them both. LOTR is my personal favorite, but that's just me - I won't say either is better.

[dANdeLION]

As writers they have different strengths, but they each are the best at their respective strengths.

[birdandbear]

As others have pointed out, this isn't a contest. Both are great authors in their own way.

It's kinda funny, but I've often described TCTC as the "anti-LOTR" because the two are so different.

LOTR is about the fate of the world.
TCTC is primarily about this guy saving himself.

LOTR is filled with classical fantasy elements (e.g. wizards, elves, etc.)
TCTC is filled with stuff you've never seen before (ur-viles, cavewights, etc.)

LOTR invites one to ponder the larger deep truths, like providence, mercy and pedetermination vs. free will.
TCTC invites one to ponder the smaller deep truths, like guilt, forgiveness and passion vs. discipline.

I could go on, but the point is that comparing the two is NOT comparing apples to oranges.
It's comparing apples to cinder blocks.

I love them both. LOTR is my personal favorite, but that's just me - I won't say either is better.

Wow! What a succinct and elegant analysis! I agree completely.
Well done, and Welcome Angbasdil!!

[Skyweir]

I gave a lecture on Tolkienian languages on an annual Tolkien convention over here, so you can tell I love Tolkien's world, really

But, seriously: how could we compare the writing style of a man with a late-Victorian soul immersed deeply in long-forgotten Nordic and Germanic sagas to someone so modern as SRD? Do they both love what they create? They do. Does it show in their works? It clearly does. From this point, it is only a matter of personal taste. And de gustibus non est disputantur.

I totally agree! We have been down this road and to me its a futile competition imho Even Donaldson himself credits Tolkien with being his inspiration .. as he was for soo many authors of Donaldson's time and on

They are both brilliant authors .. imho .. Tolkien is the classic artisan .. and Donaldson the contemporary artisan .. dare I say second.

Let me explain why. Tolkien has taken his creation to an unparalleled level .. he created a world .. animated it .. and gave it a depth of reality and believability .. which indeed formed part of the purpose of the creation of Middle eArth. Tolkien didnt stop there .. he endowed his races with geneology, history and language. Creating a language is no insignificant feat. The depth Tolkien endowed on his creation has no equal.

Donaldson was inspired as many by Tolkien's genius and in creating TCTC he created a world of his own .. animated it and gave it a depth .. there are no inter-racial languages, no equivalent detailed history or geneology.

Donaldson is my favourite because of TCTC .. because SRD takes his characters to a credible level .. he endows them with the same human conflicts and questions the concept of humanity! explores it and puts it out there for scrutiny and critique!

Tolkien does this to a lesser level imho .. but both authors force their audience to rethink their world view and more close to home their own internal dialogue and value systems.

Both are brilliant imho .. and both worthy of acknowledgement for their individual and unique creation's!

there is no contest .. nor imho .. ought there be :p

[Loredoctor]

hmmm..I have to disagree that Tolkien's characters have no depth. Look at Gollum, that character alone is brilliance. The inner struggle between good and evil. The grand scope of that battle embodied in one wretched, pitiful, loathesome character. Whom we end up feel sorry for. That's depth to me.

Yeah, that's a good point.
I hope I didn't seem as if I was attacking your opinion, Furls. I just prefer TCTC.

Oh no, never Ur-Vile I love a good debate. I never once felt attacked. I love both Tolkien and Donaldson, and countless others. It's all a matter of taste and preference.

Thankyou, Furls! I too enjoy a good debate.

[Zephalephelah]

I didn't read all of this & I don't need to. It's completely obvious that Stephen R Donaldson ripped off ideas from Tolkien. If you don't think so then you are an idiot. There are too many examples. I love TCTC & I think it is better written & more mature than LOTR, but if you can't accept that it is a blatent copy of principles then you are just in denial.

[srtrout]

I've said it before but it is a point to consider:

Wouldn't you think a famous author like Thomas Covenant would have read Tolkien?

If so, wouldn't you expect some "spillover" into any internal fantasy world his mind created? Thus the Ents, ur-viles that are like Orcs,etc.?

[Loredoctor]

I didn't read all of this & I don't need to. It's completely obvious that Stephen R Donaldson ripped off ideas from Tolkien. If you don't think so then you are an idiot. There are too many examples. I love TCTC & I think it is better written & more mature than LOTR, but if you can't accept that it is a blatent copy of principles then you are just in denial.

I accept that Donaldson was very inspired by LOTRs, but don't say he 'ripped off' Tolkein's work. By that logic, Tolkein has 'ripped off' other earlier books and mythology. For that matter, Arthur C. Clarke has 'ripped off' Olaf Stapledon, etc etc.

[Baradakas]

Is zeph an 'angry' person?

All writers are influenced in one way or another by the books they have read. Myself, for example. SDR's short story "The Killing Stroke" inspired me to come up with an entirely new cast of races for my current novel, as well as to become quite introspective about the concept of self-realization and combat.
Weis and Hickman's "Death Gate Cycle" helped inspire a completely new methodology of magic.


No writer is completely uninfluenced by literature. If they never read anything, they would never want to write in the first place....

Unless, of course, said person is a journalist.

-B

[DarkReflection]

Is zeph an 'angry' person..LOL...that was sheer brilliance.


Whoever said that Donaldson owns Tolkien is absolutely correct. I found LOTR to be very childish and very surface (from an actors point of view). It is not a rip off and not the same principles. In LOTR someone bought up Gollum, and you do have a point. But I hardly think it was a deep as it may have appeared. It's like saying Grimbeldor (ficticious name pulled out of my a**) was once the greatest singer of all time, he traveled to far lands and all who heard his voice wept, then he took up smoking..and now he cant get a job in a bar. It's kinda like that. Yeah Gollum was a hobbit then he was corrupted, okay. It just seems rather simple.

However I do fully agree that had LOTR never been written, TCTC wouldnt have either. As far as the masterpiece thing goes. I see it like this, Tolkien made a path, and introduced some things and wrote a great story. But Donaldson took that progress and went a step further to achieve a masterpiece. LOTR wont change a persons life, sure its a great escape, but in the end, you are left with the same internal questions, and still seek answers. LOTR- We all fight inner demons, and we must strive to control them, the end. TCTC - I look into the mirror of myself and where before I saw two, I now see only one. I am both dark and light, I acknowledge the potential for both inside of myself. I am.

Now that was horrible, but do you see the difference. LOTR addresses the issue, there is struggle and then victory. TCTC the issue is addressed but there is more that goes on than an elaborate spiritual fist fight, there is realization, ugh. I can't articulate at this hour. Screw it Donaldson owns Tolkien. There is not one character in LOTR that can even compare with Trell, much less Bannor, Covenant, Foamfollower.

LOTR is a story that you can relate to and enjoy.
TCTC is an experience that is real, an experience that we will all have to go through in our lives. It's more true to reality that LOTR. Because it's possible. damn, befuddlement.

Tolkien was the door, Donaldson is lies beyond that.

OH I GOT IT!!!! TAKE THAT YOU TIRED, TIRED BRAIN!

LOTR was the question, TCTC is the answer.

I rest my case, face and brain. Goodnight ladies and gentlemen. No offense was meant to anyone in the typing of this post. And no animals were harmed either.



Is zeph an 'angry' person..LOL...that was sheer brilliance.

[Loredoctor]

Dark Relfection, that was brilliant. I must add my voice to what you wrote: TCTC showed me something of myself. It showed me the despiser that lurked within me. LOTRs lacked that ability to change me. It showed me a land, but was ultimately empty. Donaldson added something more than just 'ripping off' Tolkein.

[Zephalephelah]

However I do fully agree that had LOTR never been written, TCTC wouldnt have either.

That's my favorite part. The rest is a case being made but the truth was said inside it.

You can't have TCTC without LOTR & therefore, it proves my point.

I agree with you that Stephen R Donaldson did a better job in the department of human nature struggles, but he also copied the ideas from Tolkien so much so that you can see everything in every typed letter comes from Tolkien. It's just so obvious. I don't think that this is wrong, just that defending against it is silly. It seems like anyone that disagrees with the popular opinion is wrong and that just ain't so.

[danlo]

Zeph isn't an angry person! He's a pussycat...











...with a loaded gun pointed at his head. I disagree! But u already knew that...

[birdandbear]

Well Zeph, if you can call anyone who disagrees with you an idiot, I don't see why the clique shouldn't call you wrong for disagreeing with us....

[Loredoctor]

However I do fully agree that had LOTR never been written, TCTC wouldnt have either.

That's my favorite part. The rest is a case being made but the truth was said inside it.

You can't have TCTC without LOTR & therefore, it proves my point.

I agree with you that Stephen R Donaldson did a better job in the department of human nature struggles, but he also copied the ideas from Tolkien so much so that you can see everything in every typed letter comes from Tolkien. It's just so obvious. I don't think that this is wrong, just that defending against it is silly. It seems like anyone that disagrees with the popular opinion is wrong and that just ain't so.

Zeph you seem to forget that many of us admit to that he did 'borrow' from LOTRs. However, there is so much he added to it.
And when the hell are you going to admit Tolkein himself borrowed from otehr sources? Why do you target SRD so much for it? Your accusations pretty much include ALL of fantasy literature, considering that everyone has ripped of Tolkein and others.

[Dromond]

I remember reading the first time , thinking , Forestal!?! ENT RIPOFF!!

Is that what you're looking for, Zeph?
The Forestals became their own beings, totally unrelated to LOTR

For all your concern about this, of which there seems to be alot, adding old posts that come to mind, you really are comparing apples to oranges.
Your comparisons are superficial at best and I don't really care if you think I'm a herdfollower. Just like you, I don't believe I am.

You think everything you say is brilliant, insightful and original. I'm here to tell you that some things you say do make us think. (That's a good thing.) But many things you say are just repetitions of things that you've been taught to believe,and you are a herdfollower, yet you recite these things as though no one has heard them before.

Yes, SRD copied things from LOTR, but he made them original enough, to the point where they are his own.

[Zephalephelah]

I remember reading the first time , thinking , Forestal!?! ENT RIPOFF!!

Is that what you're looking for, Zeph?
The Forestals became their own beings, totally unrelated to LOTR.

Forestal = Tom Bombadil.

But thanks for your comments & your ire.

[Guest]

Truth is a relative concept, to ask an individual, "What's the truth?" Defies the nature of the question; so called truth is defined by the majority. We are our own answer, outside agreement is confirmation to our singular belief and therefore truth.

It's a great thing to find our truths in others, but universal truth is an amorphous concept, not defined by our reality, because it can't function in the strictures of our perception. If a stone can only be accepted as a stone by the senses, that is all that it can ever be. Some choose to see more, not its root or it's essence, but the acknowledgement of potential.

[Angbasdil]

Apples and cinderblocks, people. Apples and cinderblocks.

SRD did not simply take what JRRT wrote and somehow go further with it. He went in an entirely different direction.

JRRT's books deal primarily with an external spirituality. Eru, the Valar, the Ring as an external Evil, etc. If your own theology includes good and evil as external forces (which mine does) then LOTR has a lot to say about how we respond to these forces, and how they respond to us. Taken in this light, Gollum is much more than just a corrupted hobbit.

TCTC, however, is primarily introspective. It deals with the good and evil that come from within us. Just as deep. Just as true. But the two come at every issue from two completely different angles.

LOTR reveals external truths.
TCTC reveals internal truths.

Apples and cinderblocks, people.

[dANdeLION]

I agree with Zeph to a degree. To call it a blatant rip-off would be going too far, but Zeph merely stated that some of the ideas were ripped-off. I humbly submit "Berel One Hand" from LOTR as my proof that that is so. I think Angbasdil said it best; SRD went in a different direction.

DarkReflection, it is my deepest hope that as an actor, you do not need to understand the roles you play in order to do them. Because you blew it with your definition of LOTR.