Ancient Time and the Future SPOILERS!

[Hiro]

Since I've been posting in the AATE spoilers thread, and elsewhere, I've been thinking about the Last Chrons a lot. Or rather under my thoughts a feeling emerged.

The feeling that came up was basically that somehow it seems to me that the Last Chrons play out in a remote past, in an ancient time. And I am not referring, - not even unconsciously, ehm I think -, to the episodes in FR.

There are two 'reasons' I can find for this feeling, one is the sober nature of the Land and its inhabitants. As if I am reading about a story set in an earlier, much earlier time, when the Land was not so filled with wonders *yet*.

Secondly, the beings with great power to whom we are introduced. Some of them, like the Insequent, were not present in the First and Second Chrons. However, they were apparently part of the Lands history. Because I get to meet them for the first time, it feels like I am experiencing another time. Combined with the first 'reason' it gives me this feeling of ancient times.

I admit I have difficulties with excepting the (for example) Insequent offstage during the First and Second Chrons. Although the reveal of the Guardian of the One Tree is very smart, it did not alleviate my main objections. As if in the Last Chrons the curtain of the First and Second Chrons is pulled away and behind the curtain we find many powerful beings busy with their various objectives, wholly unconcerned with the precedings in the foreground. To me, that is like a hint that the grand conflict between Foul and the Land / Covenant is truly not such a big deal. If it was these powerful beings would have taken notice and some action. Or that another story is the real story in fact.

[mod edit] ...this sensation is only getting stronger.

While I know that the Lands history and the memory of its people (except Foul?) has always been spotty, like with Kevin protecting his knowledge in the Seven Wards. And with the danger of undeserved knowledge a central theme in the Chrons I can appreciate that. A sense of mystery is created as well about the Land which helps make one experience the Land as a 'strange' world, just like Thomas Covenant. At the same time the ambiguity of the Lands past (contrasting creation myths for example) makes the Land more 'real', as different viewpoints make up our reality as well.

And there is SRD's mode of creating only what is needed for his story. Perhaps this has gotten him in a little bit of trouble when the First Chrons expanded into the Second and Last?

So what happened? Why do I except the shift from the First to the Second Chrons but have so much more trouble with the Last?

Perhaps this effect of 'ancient time' while in the future is somehow intended, as Time is such an integral part of the Last Chrons.

However, in my opinion Time has always been a central concern. The difference in Time between the Land and our world is an extremely powerful storytelling tool.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I agree with you about the lack of grandeur in the 3rd Chron.
The "present" is pretty boring.
The Land lacks everything that made it magical in the 1st Chron.
Often the most interesting things that happen are only when they travel back in time.


I don't agree with you about the Insequent not getting involved in the Land's history though.
SRD has made it pretty apparent that they are mostly self observed beings.
What impact could they have made upon the Land if they had gotten involved? And why would they have gotten involved in the first place?
The one, that we know about, that did get involved by tutoring Berek only did it for his own purposes not out of some "save the world" nobility.


Great post by the way.
Really got me thinking.

[dlbpharmd]

I've edited the title.

For those of you participating in the spoilers thread, please DO NOT include any information from that thread in any new threads.

[Hiro]

I've edited the title.

For those of you participating in the spoilers thread, please DO NOT include any information from that thread in any new threads.

Thank you for that correction. I had thought, as this is the AATE thread, that everything was considered spoiler territory already. Ok, there are layers...

[Hiro]

I agree with you about the lack of grandeur in the 3rd Chron.
The "present" is pretty boring.
The Land lacks everything that made it magical in the 1st Chron.
Often the most interesting things that happen are only when they travel back in time.

I don't agree with you about the Insequent not getting involved in the Land's history though.
SRD has made it pretty apparent that they are mostly self observed beings.
What impact could they have made upon the Land if they had gotten involved? And why would they have gotten involved in the first place?
The one, that we know about, that did get involved by tutoring Berek only did it for his own purposes not out of some "save the world" nobility.

I'll try to rephrase my concern, as the Insequent do not involve themselves with the battle between Lord Foul and the Land, the stakes seem diminished. When the Elohim feel threatened, they take action. The Insequent, by not doing anything in the larger narrative, imply that Foul would have lost anyhow, so why bother to check in?

[Vraith]

Interesting thoughts. And in hindsight, I can feel the seemingly "more ancient"-ish tone.
Just immediate response, I think it's:

partly an expectational/structural thing [and probably intentional]: He's altered/twisted the ordinary "heroes of yore," "ancient knowledge" patterns of fantasy.
...which could connect to one of my theories that these now will be eventually the ancient/mythical of the "next" world.

partly it's because most of the peoples we've come to love previously really ARE more sober/less than they were before...for now.

One thing I don't see is a diminishment of importance for fighting LF theme, I think it's a natural progression: Greater powers are coming out of the woodwork because LF is now a greater threat...perhaps they should have seen this coming [the elohim did, at least in hints and pieces]...or maybe they did, and the way things are happening is the best chance for a permanent victory [or the best change for the nearly autistic/savant Insequent to get what they want]

[Hiro]

Interesting thoughts. And in hindsight, I can feel the seemingly "more ancient"-ish tone.
Just immediate response, I think it's:

...

One thing I don't see is a diminishment of importance for fighting LF theme, I think it's a natural progression: Greater powers are coming out of the woodwork because LF is now a greater threat...perhaps they should have seen this coming [the elohim did, at least in hints and pieces]...or maybe they did, and the way things are happening is the best chance for a permanent victory [or the best change for the nearly autistic/savant Insequent to get what they want]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regarding LF, I understand your reasoning, and according to that, indeed when the stakes get raised, the Insequent etc. notice.

It could be that the Insequent have viewed things from a loooong-range perspective. I sure would have liked a few more hints of their presence in the previous Chrons though.

[DrPaul]

I agree with you about the lack of grandeur in the 3rd Chron.
The "present" is pretty boring.
The Land lacks everything that made it magical in the 1st Chron.
Often the most interesting things that happen are only when they travel back in time.

I don't agree with you about the Insequent not getting involved in the Land's history though.
SRD has made it pretty apparent that they are mostly self observed beings.
What impact could they have made upon the Land if they had gotten involved? And why would they have gotten involved in the first place?
The one, that we know about, that did get involved by tutoring Berek only did it for his own purposes not out of some "save the world" nobility.

I'll try to rephrase my concern, as the Insequent do not involve themselves with the battle between Lord Foul and the Land, the stakes seem diminished. When the Elohim feel threatened, they take action. The Insequent, by not doing anything in the larger narrative, imply that Foul would have lost anyhow, so why bother to check in?

I've just finished re-reading the chapters in FR involving the Theomach, and I have to disagree with much of what's been said here.

The Theomach's intervention:

1. Significantly upset the plans of Roger and the croyel, both of whom are agents of Lord Foul.

2. Along with Linden's actions, massively empowered Berek, Damelon and their supporters, and may well have been decisive in bringing the war to a speedy conclusion.

3. Arguably made possible the subsequent achievements of Berek and his successors in acquiring lore and in serving the Land.

The Theomach also makes it clear more than once that his intervention is motivated by a concern to avoid the destruction of the Earth, and tells Berek that his motivation for aiding him is his belief that the Creator created the Earth as a place for its inhabitants - I don't have the exact words in front of me - to embrace life, wisdom and beauty.

Then there is the Mahdoubt's role in enabling Linden to return to the "present" from the time of Berek - hardly a trivial contribution to the eventual outcome of the Last Chronicles, whatever that might be.

[shinnok]

I agree with you about the lack of grandeur in the 3rd Chron.
The "present" is pretty boring.
The Land lacks everything that made it magical in the 1st Chron.
Often the most interesting things that happen are only when they travel back in time.

I don't agree with you about the Insequent not getting involved in the Land's history though.
SRD has made it pretty apparent that they are mostly self observed beings.
What impact could they have made upon the Land if they had gotten involved? And why would they have gotten involved in the first place?
The one, that we know about, that did get involved by tutoring Berek only did it for his own purposes not out of some "save the world" nobility.

I'll try to rephrase my concern, as the Insequent do not involve themselves with the battle between Lord Foul and the Land, the stakes seem diminished. When the Elohim feel threatened, they take action. The Insequent, by not doing anything in the larger narrative, imply that Foul would have lost anyhow, so why bother to check in?

I've just finished re-reading the chapters in FR involving the Theomach, and I have to disagree with much of what's been said here.

The Theomach's intervention:

1. Significantly upset the plans of Roger and the croyel, both of whom are agents of Lord Foul.

2. Along with Linden's actions, massively empowered Berek, Damelon and their supporters, and may well have been decisive in bringing the war to a speedy conclusion.
.

I agree - no Theomach, no Old Lords, so his impact is BIG. Also, the Mahdoubt's kind intervention with the Forestal gave us a good indication of what the Insequent are capable of.

[Hiro]

I'll try to rephrase my concern, as the Insequent do not involve themselves with the battle between Lord Foul and the Land, the stakes seem diminished. When the Elohim feel threatened, they take action. The Insequent, by not doing anything in the larger narrative, imply that Foul would have lost anyhow, so why bother to check in?

I've just finished re-reading the chapters in FR involving the Theomach, and I have to disagree with much of what's been said here.

The Theomach's intervention:

1. Significantly upset the plans of Roger and the croyel, both of whom are agents of Lord Foul.

2. Along with Linden's actions, massively empowered Berek, Damelon and their supporters, and may well have been decisive in bringing the war to a speedy conclusion.
.

I agree - no Theomach, no Old Lords, so his impact is BIG. Also, the Mahdoubt's kind intervention with the Forestal gave us a good indication of what the Insequent are capable of.

While I see both of your points of the Insequents impact on the Land, it is still something gained with hindsight, while reading the Last Chrons. I.e. when the curtain is pulled away...

[chaplainchris]

AATE helps with this, as we now know that it wasn't that the Land's conflict was too small for them; it's that some of them came to grief in the Land's past and they decided the place was too dangerous!

I still don't know what to make of the Insequent as a whole. The Harrow seems to have vastly overestimated himself, all things told, considering how easily he was taken out by Roger, and how he needed Linden's help to get into the Lost Deep. But then, he is the same guy that handled Demondim and Demondim-spawn with such aplomb in the last book. Overall, it seems that their strengths vary widely.

(But then, so do the Ur-viles and Waynhim, as their ability in the Last Chronicles to be invisible and teleport seem like they would've had a big impact during the era of the Lords!)