The Eye of the Paradox

[Cambo]

Hey I just posted an essay I wrote about the First and Second Chronicles in the Hall of Gifts. It's long, and academic (read:dry) but if you're interested, check it out. Comment on it here, or in the Hall.

PS In my noobishness, I am unable to figure out how to link it here. I'd put the URL but anywhere I am on the Watch my bar just says www.kevinswatch.com. Any help?

[jackgiantkiller]

How do I get to the hall of gifts?

[Cambo]

In the main Forum Index scroll down to "Scatterlings" click on "hegemony" then "hall of gifts"

[jackgiantkiller]

thanks

[peter]

Wow, Cambe - that was quick. I had just worked out how to get there and was coming back to tell Jack and bang! you beat me to the post. I'm just off to read the essay now and boy it'd better be good or are you in for a roasting!

(Only playin' - welcome to the watch by the way.)

[Fist and Faith]

Cambo, I'm assuming your difficulty is that you got here by going to www.kevinswatch.com, and clicking on the "The Kevin's Watch Message Board" link. In which case, yes, for computer reasons I have no knowledge whatsoever of, everything will always say www.kevinswatch.com.

This message board has its own url:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/
Or, simply kevinswatch.ihugny.com
That will give you all the individual urls.

Your thread is:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20074

Individual posts also have a url. For example:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=795831#795831
You get these by clicking on the little sheet of paper to the right of the username of the post.

[Cambo]

Thanks Fist and Faith.

[peter]

Jeez Cambo - you would never credit it. I just spent an hour reading then replying in depth to the essay ....... and then my broadband connection broke just as I posted the reply and away it went into nothingness! (probably the best place for it anyway). Thought the essay was fantastic. Well written and argued - A* stuff if ever I saw it.

[jackgiantkiller]

Wow that is a powerful piece of work, I hope whoever marks it is worty of the challange. Do you think the catalystic properties of the illearth stone and venom to enhance positive destructive emotions and power relate in any way to spiritual icons/ritual/sacramental/relics? what about despair as a negative force of impotence. I also feel a 'enlightlement' throgh suffering is more what Elenor is about rather than delusions of grandier. I wouldnt describr Linden as manic-depressive rather nialistic. these arnt critisms just ideas your essay provoced in me. I see the chronicals as a bit old and new testetiment in the judocristian doctrin, I know this is off your point but the first chronicals are full of conflict sin and retribution also prophesy plays a large part as well as a 'covernant' between 'god' and his chosen people, where the second chronicals are about salvation sacrafice and redemption.
Could someone unfamilure with TC get your essay as clearly as one who is. from that perspective noone on the watch could tell you, please let us know what feedback you get academicly

[Cambo]

Peter- Thanks!

Jack- sacraments and relics play a huge role in Covenant. There's the Illearth Stone, and also the Seven Wards of Kevin's Lore, the Krill of Loric, orcrest and liannar, and the remnants of Drool Rockworm in WGW.

Despair as a negative force of impotence- definitely. Apart from Covenant, we see Hile Troy and Mhoram almost succunb to this.

"Enlightenment through suffering for Elena. Want to elaborate on that a bit? I've always seen her as deluded rather than enlightened.

Linden is nihilistic, I agree, and Donaldson doesn't, I think, come right out and say she has depression. But I think Linden's "black moods" are as eloquent a description of depression as I've ever read.

The Old and New Testament idea is cool, I'd never thought of that. Maybe you could write that essay?

[jackgiantkiller]

Elenor belived that Kevin would be very potent as a reserected spirit due to his despair and fury at Fouls survival after the R.O.D, she belived he would be able to draw on this pain to give him some form of great strenth and potency from beyond the gave, this is what I mean by 'enlightenment' from her perspective , didnt she also think/belive Kaalabah? the father of the ryhamin would have had some great reverlation to empart when he realised that Foul had betrayed him after their 'deal' wasnt that what she thought she gained from the horserite, that through great suffering despair, pain, betrayal, comes potent enlightenment that could defeat the despiser. She was wrong obviously, but was this not why she summond Kevin from the dead to do battle with Foul. I dont think she was enlightened but she craved it, she also felt potent destructive hate

as for her depression another term could be severe meloncholy, illhumour as they said in the old days. but like you I feel she is nihalistic, she is morbidly preoccupied with death understandably due to her life B4 the land.

[Vraith]

Some good stuff here, but I have to say that Linden is precisely not nihilistic.
If she were nihilistic [in the way that those who follow its negative path mean it] she would think everyones actions would end in darkness/despair. Actions seem to matter, but they don't really. She doesn't believe this, she believes the opposite...she may be meaningless and ineffectual, but not everyone is [primarily TC, of course].
If she were nihilistic [in the way that those who follow its positive path mean it] she would think that the Land means nothing at all in itself. That Earthpower, and Beauty, places like Andelain, have no value other than what people do with them. She doesn't believe that, either. She doesn't only value the "beings", and no person gave her percipience or the ability to heal. The nature of the world did.

[Cambo]

I stand corrected, Vraith. Nihilism, in retrospect, doesn't in fact describe Linden's particular ailment. Perhaps relativism? At the start of the trilogy, she refuses to believe in absolute good and evil, though this doesn't last long and she soon is forced to acknowledge absolutes, at least in the Land.

[Vraith]

I stand corrected, Vraith. Nihilism, in retrospect, doesn't in fact describe Linden's particular ailment. Perhaps relativism? At the start of the trilogy, she refuses to believe in absolute good and evil, though this doesn't last long and she soon is forced to acknowledge absolutes, at least in the Land.

Here, I think you're getting closer...and believe me, I don't think I have "the Answers" either...some pretty firm opinions, on some specific things, but still working hard on it...
Nihilism isn't totally irrelevant, nor is relativism [the 2 have overlapping territory...a lot of it]...and you point directly at the heart: absolutes.
Her quandary: a personal psuedo-nihilism [I'm nothing, I'm broken, but I'm so competent/powerful I'm responsible for everything, including making sure no one ends up like me] combined with/contrary to [both at once]

Spoiler

"Only my son matters" and "The only reason I can save my son is the nature of the Land, not me." And, tossed into the mix, the contradiction of "All your deeds conduce to ruin" and [paraphrase] "These kinds of choices cannot serve Corruption."

Something I've been trying to figure out the implications of for a long time [Linden for some reason flipped the switch that made me think of it] cuz it seems to apply to so many things: shades of gray, good and evil, continuum...but it seems to me, that Evil has an absolute limit, personified by LF, it's sensible, it is present. Good, on the other hand, has no boundary, no limit. At first, this seems a good thing. But what if the "solidity" of evil is the reason that the Elohim,

Spoiler

the Masters

, and such cannot see further/beyond? OR, what if the fog and blur, inability to bring into focus, of looking in the direction of infinite good is what limits us, forces us to turn back and pay attention to evil...because at least [we think] we can see it clearly.

[Menolly]

Cambo, I'm assuming your difficulty is that you got here by going to www.kevinswatch.com, and clicking on the "The Kevin's Watch Message Board" link. In which case, yes, for computer reasons I have no knowledge whatsoever of, everything will always say www.kevinswatch.com.

This message board has its own url:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/
Or, simply kevinswatch.ihugny.com
That will give you all the individual urls.

Your thread is:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20074

Individual posts also have a url. For example:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=795831#795831
You get these by clicking on the little sheet of paper to the right of the username of the post.

Go here for graphics which show this step by step, including the shortcut of using right click and scroll...

By following these directions, and surrounding the address with url tags, you can then link it thusly:

"The Eye of the Paradox"

[Vraith]

EEKS! thanks whatever mod spoiler tagged...I forgot this wasn't an AATE thread!.

Edited to say: That would be Orlion...just saw you pm'd me. sorry.

[Cambo]

You're right Vraith, one of the most striking imbalancesin the Chronilces is that absolute evil is present in the Land- Lord Foul- but absolute good is not. The Creator would be the only character on the pure end of the good spectrum, but he is necessarily absent from the Land. I think the importance of faith comes into play here. There is no faith required to believe in Lord Foul, he is an objective fact in the Land, but no-one save Covenant and Linden have ever seen or interacted with the Creator. Those who even believe in the Creator, like Mhoram, seem to be those with their sights set on the purest goodness.

Back to Linden, her struggle illustrates well the dilemma that every basically good character in the Land faces. There are no good and evil archetypes save LF and the Creator. Everyone else has the capacity for both within them, which leads to the necessity of freedom: the characters must choose good or evil. Not only that, they have to decide which is which, something Linden faces when she believes Covenant is effectively serving LF. She believes in good, wants to be an effective force for good, but the only way she can see to be effective is through the act of possession, which she knows to be evil.

PS Thanks also to whatever moderator edited the spoilers, I have yet to find a copy of AATE.

[Orlion]

Just doin' my job, guys... if I didn't, the Arch might collapse

[Cambo]

"Somewhere in the data-rock which enclosed Kevin's Watch, the blast of plot spoiler Despite shattered. Because it was a data packet, it was not a physical force; it did no physical damage...Out of the hot lines of wild unread plot details...an image formed. An image of a moderator. A moderator who had placed himself between juicy spoilers and the Arch of Open Mineded Reading. Orlion."

[Menolly]

"Somewhere in the data-rock which enclosed Kevin's Watch, the blast of plot spoiler Despite shattered. Because it was a data packet, it was not a physical force; it did no physical damage...Out of the hot lines of wild unread plot details...an image formed. An image of a moderator. A moderator who had placed himself between juicy spoilers and the Arch of Open Mineded Reading. Orlion."

I think I'm going to enjoy reading the posts of this new Watcher...