Against All Things Linden

[lurch]

Fascinating perspectives being presented and if I am to respect them,,and respect the logic being applied in the review by Revan, then I must respect the logical conclusion of these posts. Yes? So, its,,nice knowing you,,sorry to hear I and the enjoyers of AATE won't be seeing you all around these parts again. I mean..logically,,hanging around that which disappoints , doesn't sound very logical right. ? I mean. the author and Putnam are Not going to do a recall and rewrite the AATE much less Runes and FR , soooo. Unless, of course,, one likes being disappointed, then hangin around that which disappoints would be logical. I don't know about sane, but would be logical. Hangin around that which disappoints would also be logical if one intends to bring others into disappointment. Again , I don't know about sane, but would seem logical, if so intended.

So..sorry to see you go. I hope ,as Revan has found, something comes along that elicits graspable joy from you rather than easy disappointment and that you spend many happy days there. Its a wonderful " geas" and thats why I am here. Good Luck!! and may your days and nights be long and filled with joy!

No reply necessary or required,,because by not replying,,you are respecting the logic. ba'bye!

[Hiro]

Fascinating perspectives being presented and if I am to respect them,,and respect the logic being applied in the review by Revan, then I must respect the logical conclusion of these posts. Yes? So, its,,nice knowing you,,sorry to hear I and the enjoyers of AATE won't be seeing you all around these parts again. I mean..logically,,hanging around that which disappoints , doesn't sound very logical right. ? I mean. the author and Putnam are Not going to do a recall and rewrite the AATE much less Runes and FR , soooo. Unless, of course,, one likes being disappointed, then hangin around that which disappoints would be logical. I don't know about sane, but would be logical. Hangin around that which disappoints would also be logical if one intends to bring others into disappointment. Again , I don't know about sane, but would seem logical, if so intended.

So..sorry to see you go. I hope ,as Revan has found, something comes along that elicits graspable joy from you rather than easy disappointment and that you spend many happy days there. Its a wonderful " geas" and thats why I am here. Good Luck!! and may your days and nights be long and filled with joy!

No reply necessary or required,,because by not replying,,you are respecting the logic. ba'bye!

Why Lurch, you don't have to agree, but as books elicit an emotional response as well it has very little to do with being logical or not. Whatever that may be in this case. 'easy disappointment', you write. How do you know? Are you troubled that people are having debates about these novels?

Why not address some of the issues raised here with some reasoning of your own?

You make it sound so black and white, which is funny since it is hardly something that SRD strives for in his work.

[Revan]

Yeah, like I've said to you before Lurch, dissect, analyse, and address the points in which you disagree with. I am not unamendable to a persuasive argument. If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion at hand, why speak at all? These barely coherent digs you're making merely make me wonder if 13 year olds should be allowed to read the chronicles.

Anyways, don't bother answering unless you're going to do what I suggested above; because I'll not respond.

[aliantha]

I think lurch's point is that most of the dissenters don't seem to be interested in balancing their criticism with any sort of praise or satisfaction. All they're interested in doing is tearing the book apart. And as SRD has said himself in the GI, if you hate it, why are you still reading it?

There's nothing wrong with being critical. Well, actually, I take that back. If you read a book and come to a discussion board devoted to the author's work, and you know the guy just spent three years of his life working on the book, and yet everything you post amounts to ripping him a new a**hole -- no praise and no respect, only criticism -- well, IMHO, there's something wrong with that.

I agree that the book has some problems, but I'd rather spend my time figuring out *why* the Last Chrons isn't written the same way the First and Second Chrons were, instead of just harping on the flaws.

[Revan]

I think lurch's point is that most of the dissenters don't seem to be interested in balancing their criticism with any sort of praise or satisfaction. All they're interested in doing is tearing the book apart. And as SRD has said himself in the GI, if you hate it, why are you still reading it?

There's nothing wrong with being critical. Well, actually, I take that back. If you read a book and come to a discussion board devoted to the author's work, and you know the guy just spent three years of his life working on the book, and yet everything you post amounts to ripping him a new a**hole -- no praise and no respect, only criticism -- well, IMHO, there's something wrong with that.

I agree that the book has some problems, but I'd rather spend my time figuring out *why* the Last Chrons isn't written the same way the First and Second Chrons were, instead of just harping on the flaws.

Your point is a valid one aliantha; however you're misinterpretating my feeling for this book. First of all I'm not still reading it, and have no intention of rereading it. I do not hate this book, as I said before the book is not good enough to get that worked up over.

And I respect Donaldson immensely. What he does for us in the G.I. is amazing. I actually was staring at the book, nonplussed, because the feeling of dissappoint is so antipodean with how i usually feel about Donaldson.
If you want to here what I found good about this book I'll gladly indulge you, however I didn't consider those aspects relevant to this review (which thinking back was less a review more a list I found dissappointing). I have spent three years waiting for this book, and even if I hadn't I would still have every right to feel how I feel.


One reason I did post this review is I was hoping, through conjecture, that I could justify and look past my dissappointments. Sadly very little has been offered. You don't like my feelings on this subject, then do what Donaldson says, don't read them. If you think I'm wrong, challenge me, please! I want to have been able to enjoy the book as much as some of you have. Don't come at me with snide comments, because that won't work. Give me a decent discussion on the matter, and I'll listen intently.

[Hiro]

I think lurch's point is that most of the dissenters don't seem to be interested in balancing their criticism with any sort of praise or satisfaction. All they're interested in doing is tearing the book apart. And as SRD has said himself in the GI, if you hate it, why are you still reading it?

There's nothing wrong with being critical. Well, actually, I take that back. If you read a book and come to a discussion board devoted to the author's work, and you know the guy just spent three years of his life working on the book, and yet everything you post amounts to ripping him a new a**hole -- no praise and no respect, only criticism -- well, IMHO, there's something wrong with that.

I agree that the book has some problems, but I'd rather spend my time figuring out *why* the Last Chrons isn't written the same way the First and Second Chrons were, instead of just harping on the flaws.

If Lurch or you had read my comments you would find out that I have expressed my satisfaction as well. We are here on the SRD - (AATE) board are we not, does that not say enough? You're whole argument can be turned around 180 degrees to proof why I (and maybe others) are here. I can only speak for myself that I am certainly not here to rip anybody anything. That would be a waste of time.

However, you point out that SRD has spent 3 years of his life working on his book. He himself, during the Elohimfest warned against this kind of reasoning and emotionalism.

And, don't you think others like myself could also be trying to figure out *why*? Take a look at the 'Reading along' topic for instance.

If you feel that I have unduly criticised SRD in some way, please point it out.
Otherwise, and this is also for Lurch, let's discuss the book, shall we?

[Usivius]

well, allow me to chime in a bit on this topic (since I am a Linden fan)
Firstly, although I enjoyed AATE, I have to put it at #3 in the last Chrons. It has been mentioned before on other posts, but one of the things I found frustratinf with this one was the pacing... There were times (like the journey in to The Dark, where the narrative seemed to really drag our extraneous descriptions and repetition of thoughts already expressed two or three times ... it was like trying to get to an exit and a slow-moving crowd of people is in your way.
And, yes, I agree with everyone: the Giants are very 2 dimensional. And I am sad at this.

Overall I have had a love/hate relationship with the Insequent, as I can't help but feel that they are add-ons... they don't "feel" like they belong to the entire story.
And "she" ... well, I am unsure about that one yet. My initial instinct was to say, "What purpose did she serve?" I will await to see what occurs in TLD, however, in AATE, "she" felt unnecessary other than to add another (unnecessary) darkness to Linden's mood.

I love TC and I love Linden. The tension between them is wonderful (except I just wish one of them would say I love you! while the other is conscious!
I await their continued love story ....

[Revan]

That was another matter of the story that I disliked... I loved the love story between Thomas and Linden in the Second Chronicles. I was like, "Just kiss already!" Linden's been loving and missing this guy for 10 years; she'd frenchie him in two seconds given the chance. Thomas has been without action for 3500years - at this point it's been so long I'd not be suprised if he jumped on the ur-viles for a bit of lore-filled action.

Anyone else miss the love between them? (by this i mean them telling each other)

[aliantha]

I think lurch's point is that most of the dissenters don't seem to be interested in balancing their criticism with any sort of praise or satisfaction. All they're interested in doing is tearing the book apart. And as SRD has said himself in the GI, if you hate it, why are you still reading it?

There's nothing wrong with being critical. Well, actually, I take that back. If you read a book and come to a discussion board devoted to the author's work, and you know the guy just spent three years of his life working on the book, and yet everything you post amounts to ripping him a new a**hole -- no praise and no respect, only criticism -- well, IMHO, there's something wrong with that.

I agree that the book has some problems, but I'd rather spend my time figuring out *why* the Last Chrons isn't written the same way the First and Second Chrons were, instead of just harping on the flaws.

If Lurch or you had read my comments you would find out that I have expressed my satisfaction as well. We are here on the SRD - (AATE) board are we not, does that not say enough? You're whole argument can be turned around 180 degrees to proof why I (and maybe others) are here. I can only speak for myself that I am certainly not here to rip anybody anything. That would be a waste of time.

However, you point out that SRD has spent 3 years of his life working on his book. He himself, during the Elohimfest warned against this kind of reasoning and emotionalism.

And, don't you think others like myself could also be trying to figure out *why*? Take a look at the 'Reading along' topic for instance.

If you feel that I have unduly criticised SRD in some way, please point it out.
Otherwise, and this is also for Lurch, let's discuss the book, shall we?

Which Elohimfest was it where SRD made that comment? I don't remember it from the last one.

I've *been* discussing the book, in other threads. So has lurch. He's started several.

Maybe I've just had it up to here with THOOLAH. I'm tired of reading comments about how Linden is whiny and indecisive and how much you guys miss Covenant. Well, Covenant's HERE, in this very book. He gets a boatload of face time. Numerous chapters are from his point of view. And *still* I'm hearing about how Linden's whiny and indecisive, and there's not enough Covenant -- and the Covenant we *do* get isn't the same leper we used to know and love.

You're right, he's not. Why is that?

And while we're at it, we can talk about why Linden is allegedly whiny and indecisive.

That's the difference between discussing and complaining.

[Hiro]

I think lurch's point is that most of the dissenters don't seem to be interested in balancing their criticism with any sort of praise or satisfaction. All they're interested in doing is tearing the book apart. And as SRD has said himself in the GI, if you hate it, why are you still reading it?

There's nothing wrong with being critical. Well, actually, I take that back. If you read a book and come to a discussion board devoted to the author's work, and you know the guy just spent three years of his life working on the book, and yet everything you post amounts to ripping him a new a**hole -- no praise and no respect, only criticism -- well, IMHO, there's something wrong with that.

I agree that the book has some problems, but I'd rather spend my time figuring out *why* the Last Chrons isn't written the same way the First and Second Chrons were, instead of just harping on the flaws.

If Lurch or you had read my comments you would find out that I have expressed my satisfaction as well. We are here on the SRD - (AATE) board are we not, does that not say enough? You're whole argument can be turned around 180 degrees to proof why I (and maybe others) are here. I can only speak for myself that I am certainly not here to rip anybody anything. That would be a waste of time.

However, you point out that SRD has spent 3 years of his life working on his book. He himself, during the Elohimfest warned against this kind of reasoning and emotionalism.

And, don't you think others like myself could also be trying to figure out *why*? Take a look at the 'Reading along' topic for instance.

If you feel that I have unduly criticised SRD in some way, please point it out.
Otherwise, and this is also for Lurch, let's discuss the book, shall we?

Which Elohimfest was it where SRD made that comment? I don't remember it from the last one.

I've *been* discussing the book, in other threads. So has lurch. He's started several.

Maybe I've just had it up to here with THOOLAH. I'm tired of reading comments about how Linden is whiny and indecisive and how much you guys miss Covenant. Well, Covenant's HERE, in this very book. He gets a boatload of face time. Numerous chapters are from his point of view. And *still* I'm hearing about how Linden's whiny and indecisive, and there's not enough Covenant -- and the Covenant we *do* get isn't the same leper we used to know and love.

You're right, he's not. Why is that?

And while we're at it, we can talk about why Linden is allegedly whiny and indecisive.

That's the difference between discussing and complaining.

At the Elohimfest which is presented under 'structured interviews' at his site.

If you have read my posts, you might have noticed that I do not have a particular or general problem with Linden. I am not a member of THOOLAH.

[johnsomc]

...by some of the comments that refer to the necessity of readers' "expectations" being fulfilled. These are, of course, entirely subjective, as MY expectations may differ from someone else's, and NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own. Period. I sometimes detect, particularly in the threads that have to do with hatred for the character of Linden Avery, the sentiment that somehow Donaldson has betrayed the original trilogy by focusing more on Linden Avery's character, and that he HAD NO RIGHT TO DO SO. This is simply wrong. Donaldson has the absolute right to do whatever the hell he wants with his world, his characters, and his imagination. The fact that people don't "like" Linden Avery's character is really beside the point - it could easily be argued that every aspect of Linden that some readers don't like is absolutely essential to what Donaldson is trying to do with the second and third chronicles. Each chronicles is fundamentally different from the others, while building on what has come before and transforming it into something entirely new.

The idea that Donaldson "owes" his readers more Covenant than Linden represents a fundamental misreading of art, which is that no artist is under any obligation imposed by anyone or anything other than his or own individual creative vision. The fact that some readers are "disappointed" by the book is frankly just too bad - Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else. The fact that anyone has "waited three years" for the book does not impose upon Donaldson the requirement to meet your aesthetic or artistic "expectations" in any way. You can dislike it as much as you want...you can dislike Linden as much as you want. The fact is, Linden's character makes absolute sense based on what Donaldson is apparently trying to achieve.

First, the argument that this is NOT a Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is ridiculous - Linden would not be who she is without Thomas Covenant, and therefore, anything involving her is, by default, involving Thomas Covenant. I can see how some readers might object to this since they think Thomas Covenant should appear in every paragraph to justify calling it The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant...but since those readers are wrong, we can just dismiss it. Everything Linden DOES is motivated by desire for Thomas Covenant, everything that exists in the Land exists BECAUSE of Thomas Covenant's influence...Thomas Covenant is the freaking Timewarden of the world. The forces ravaging the Land, especially Joan and Roger, are entirely due to Covenant, and without them, there would be no conflict. So yes, it IS a chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and his physical absence does not make it any less so. Donaldson is working thematically and figuratively, not literally, and the title of the series reflects that.

Second, Donaldson is clearly laying on the theme of despair with a heavy hand, but since this is the end of all things, that's completely appropriate. WHY in the name of all that is holy would he then focus on Thomas Covenant as a central character, who is incorporeal, is holding existence together, and has no reason to despair? For Thomas Covenant to re-enter the Land as a tangible character, someone has to REMOVE Covenant from where he is - and who else would do such a thing if not Linden Avery? Linden Avery HAS to be the narrative center of The Last Chronicles because only she would endeavor to bring Covenant back into the Land in the first place. No one else would dare. And in order for HER to dare, she has to be put through the ringer and lose all faith in herself.
Did you want all that to happen off-screen? Would it have made any narrative sense to not put the reader through the ringer with her as well? And quite frankly, if you read Donaldson, what the hell were you expecting? Linden to be dancing through a field of tulips with a big fat grin on her face? You expected her to have exorcised all her demons and be at peace? This is, I guess, my real issue with all these Donaldson readers and their dashed "expectations." You can't have been reading Donaldson very carefully if you DIDN'T expect Linden Avery to return and suffer like the damned.

The bottom line is, you want Thomas Covenant? Fine - narratively speaking, you have to have Linden Avery to get him, since nothing else would make any narrative sense at all. You thought he'd come back all on his own? He CAN'T. And why would he want to? And in order to justify bringing Covenant back to the Land, it requires establishing the depths of despair that Linden will have to sink to in order to bring him back. Anything else would be narrative cheating of the weakest order: "Oh, look...I found a book for bringing the Timewarden back to life! Let's read the incantation! Yay! Thomas Covenant!" Please.

What it comes down to is understanding the sense of what Donaldson is doing in terms of narrative - and unfortunately this has nothing to do with what you necessarily WANT him to do. Nor should it. You don't have to like it. But Linden Avery is NECESSARY to the narrative, and while every single element of her arc may not be, her despair, imperfection, and self-doubt most emphatically ARE. This may make her unlikable at times...but when has Donaldson ever been concerned about that?

Tempest in a teacup...since you will all be reading the last book, won't you? No matter how much you hate Linden.

[Hiro]

Dear johnsomc,

Thank you for your fantastic and truthful post!!

You have clarified the narrative choices that SRD made in the Last Chron's to a great extent. Thank you.

[Usivius]

...by some of the comments that refer to the necessity of readers' "expectations" being fulfilled. These are, of course, entirely subjective, as MY expectations may differ from someone else's, and NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own. Period. I sometimes detect, particularly in the threads that have to do with hatred for the character of Linden Avery, the sentiment that somehow Donaldson has betrayed the original trilogy by focusing more on Linden Avery's character, and that he HAD NO RIGHT TO DO SO. This is simply wrong. Donaldson has the absolute right to do whatever the hell he wants with his world, his characters, and his imagination. The fact that people don't "like" Linden Avery's character is really beside the point - it could easily be argued that every aspect of Linden that some readers don't like is absolutely essential to what Donaldson is trying to do with the second and third chronicles. Each chronicles is fundamentally different from the others, while building on what has come before and transforming it into something entirely new.

The idea that Donaldson "owes" his readers more Covenant than Linden represents a fundamental misreading of art, which is that no artist is under any obligation imposed by anyone or anything other than his or own individual creative vision. The fact that some readers are "disappointed" by the book is frankly just too bad - Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else. The fact that anyone has "waited three years" for the book does not impose upon Donaldson the requirement to meet your aesthetic or artistic "expectations" in any way. You can dislike it as much as you want...you can dislike Linden as much as you want. The fact is, Linden's character makes absolute sense based on what Donaldson is apparently trying to achieve.

First, the argument that this is NOT a Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is ridiculous - Linden would not be who she is without Thomas Covenant, and therefore, anything involving her is, by default, involving Thomas Covenant. I can see how some readers might object to this since they think Thomas Covenant should appear in every paragraph to justify calling it The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant...but since those readers are wrong, we can just dismiss it. Everything Linden DOES is motivated by desire for Thomas Covenant, everything that exists in the Land exists BECAUSE of Thomas Covenant's influence...Thomas Covenant is the freaking Timewarden of the world. The forces ravaging the Land, especially Joan and Roger, are entirely due to Covenant, and without them, there would be no conflict. So yes, it IS a chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and his physical absence does not make it any less so. Donaldson is working thematically and figuratively, not literally, and the title of the series reflects that.

Second, Donaldson is clearly laying on the theme of despair with a heavy hand, but since this is the end of all things, that's completely appropriate. WHY in the name of all that is holy would he then focus on Thomas Covenant as a central character, who is incorporeal, is holding existence together, and has no reason to despair? For Thomas Covenant to re-enter the Land as a tangible character, someone has to REMOVE Covenant from where he is - and who else would do such a thing if not Linden Avery? Linden Avery HAS to be the narrative center of The Last Chronicles because only she would endeavor to bring Covenant back into the Land in the first place. No one else would dare. And in order for HER to dare, she has to be put through the ringer and lose all faith in herself.
Did you want all that to happen off-screen? Would it have made any narrative sense to not put the reader through the ringer with her as well? And quite frankly, if you read Donaldson, what the hell were you expecting? Linden to be dancing through a field of tulips with a big fat grin on her face? You expected her to have exorcised all her demons and be at peace? This is, I guess, my real issue with all these Donaldson readers and their dashed "expectations." You can't have been reading Donaldson very carefully if you DIDN'T expect Linden Avery to return and suffer like the damned.

The bottom line is, you want Thomas Covenant? Fine - narratively speaking, you have to have Linden Avery to get him, since nothing else would make any narrative sense at all. You thought he'd come back all on his own? He CAN'T. And why would he want to? And in order to justify bringing Covenant back to the Land, it requires establishing the depths of despair that Linden will have to sink to in order to bring him back. Anything else would be narrative cheating of the weakest order: "Oh, look...I found a book for bringing the Timewarden back to life! Let's read the incantation! Yay! Thomas Covenant!" Please.

What it comes down to is understanding the sense of what Donaldson is doing in terms of narrative - and unfortunately this has nothing to do with what you necessarily WANT him to do. Nor should it. You don't have to like it. But Linden Avery is NECESSARY to the narrative, and while every single element of her arc may not be, her despair, imperfection, and self-doubt most emphatically ARE. This may make her unlikable at times...but when has Donaldson ever been concerned about that?

Tempest in a teacup...since you will all be reading the last book, won't you? No matter how much you hate Linden.

Yep, I agree too.
I love the Chrons, and fell in love with the first series when it came out (yah, I'm that old), and although I felt TC was too whiny and indecisive in the first chrons, I accepted that it was his character and it went along with telling such a great story. Same with Linden; although I do not think she's whiny, but decisive and amazing!... I do get frustrated with her self doubt and worth... But, again, that is the character that is being used to tell the story that is being told. And I love SRD for it.
So, despite my certain frustrations with the last book, I know SRD's writing always presents a reading challenge that few other authors offer.

[aliantha]

Where's the damn goodpost button in this forum? Johnsomc, thank you.

And Usuvius, you're right, Covenant *was* whiny in the 1st Chrons.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Tempest in a teacup...since you will all be reading the last book, won't you? No matter how much you hate Linden.

Relax Francis.

[Revan]

NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own.

Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else.

bah to that. If Donaldson only wrote for himself and I never heard of this story then I would agree with you. When you publish your books with the intent to sell, expect readers to pay good money, then you open yourself to scrutiny - be it good or bad.


I didn't exactly want this to evolve into another discussion regarding Linden Avery; I merely put that title up there for more humor's sake than anything else. I don't dislike Linden, not that much anyways. I just prefer Covenant. And these are the Chronicles of Linden Avery - which I'm good with - just call a spade a spade.
And enough of Linden in this topic; she's not nearly interesting enough to warrant all this discussion. That was one small part of my review, one I consider the least important.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Thank you johnsomc, your review belongs on Amazon.com, if it hasn't already been posted there, and with only some minor alterations. Not only is it a great (unintentional) review, but the negative reviewers on Amazon are often only rebutted by fanboy reviewers with one to two line comments.

...by some of the comments that refer to the necessity of readers' "expectations" being fulfilled. These are, of course, entirely subjective, as MY expectations may differ from someone else's, and NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own. Period. I sometimes detect, particularly in the threads that have to do with hatred for the character of Linden Avery, the sentiment that somehow Donaldson has betrayed the original trilogy by focusing more on Linden Avery's character, and that he HAD NO RIGHT TO DO SO. This is simply wrong. Donaldson has the absolute right to do whatever the hell he wants with his world, his characters, and his imagination. The fact that people don't "like" Linden Avery's character is really beside the point - it could easily be argued that every aspect of Linden that some readers don't like is absolutely essential to what Donaldson is trying to do with the second and third chronicles. Each chronicles is fundamentally different from the others, while building on what has come before and transforming it into something entirely new.

The idea that Donaldson "owes" his readers more Covenant than Linden represents a fundamental misreading of art, which is that no artist is under any obligation imposed by anyone or anything other than his or own individual creative vision. The fact that some readers are "disappointed" by the book is frankly just too bad - Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else. The fact that anyone has "waited three years" for the book does not impose upon Donaldson the requirement to meet your aesthetic or artistic "expectations" in any way. You can dislike it as much as you want...you can dislike Linden as much as you want. The fact is, Linden's character makes absolute sense based on what Donaldson is apparently trying to achieve.

First, the argument that this is NOT a Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is ridiculous - Linden would not be who she is without Thomas Covenant, and therefore, anything involving her is, by default, involving Thomas Covenant. I can see how some readers might object to this since they think Thomas Covenant should appear in every paragraph to justify calling it The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant...but since those readers are wrong, we can just dismiss it. Everything Linden DOES is motivated by desire for Thomas Covenant, everything that exists in the Land exists BECAUSE of Thomas Covenant's influence...Thomas Covenant is the freaking Timewarden of the world. The forces ravaging the Land, especially Joan and Roger, are entirely due to Covenant, and without them, there would be no conflict. So yes, it IS a chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and his physical absence does not make it any less so. Donaldson is working thematically and figuratively, not literally, and the title of the series reflects that.

Second, Donaldson is clearly laying on the theme of despair with a heavy hand, but since this is the end of all things, that's completely appropriate. WHY in the name of all that is holy would he then focus on Thomas Covenant as a central character, who is incorporeal, is holding existence together, and has no reason to despair? For Thomas Covenant to re-enter the Land as a tangible character, someone has to REMOVE Covenant from where he is - and who else would do such a thing if not Linden Avery? Linden Avery HAS to be the narrative center of The Last Chronicles because only she would endeavor to bring Covenant back into the Land in the first place. No one else would dare. And in order for HER to dare, she has to be put through the ringer and lose all faith in herself.
Did you want all that to happen off-screen? Would it have made any narrative sense to not put the reader through the ringer with her as well? And quite frankly, if you read Donaldson, what the hell were you expecting? Linden to be dancing through a field of tulips with a big fat grin on her face? You expected her to have exorcised all her demons and be at peace? This is, I guess, my real issue with all these Donaldson readers and their dashed "expectations." You can't have been reading Donaldson very carefully if you DIDN'T expect Linden Avery to return and suffer like the damned.

The bottom line is, you want Thomas Covenant? Fine - narratively speaking, you have to have Linden Avery to get him, since nothing else would make any narrative sense at all. You thought he'd come back all on his own? He CAN'T. And why would he want to? And in order to justify bringing Covenant back to the Land, it requires establishing the depths of despair that Linden will have to sink to in order to bring him back. Anything else would be narrative cheating of the weakest order: "Oh, look...I found a book for bringing the Timewarden back to life! Let's read the incantation! Yay! Thomas Covenant!" Please.

What it comes down to is understanding the sense of what Donaldson is doing in terms of narrative - and unfortunately this has nothing to do with what you necessarily WANT him to do. Nor should it. You don't have to like it. But Linden Avery is NECESSARY to the narrative, and while every single element of her arc may not be, her despair, imperfection, and self-doubt most emphatically ARE. This may make her unlikable at times...but when has Donaldson ever been concerned about that?

Tempest in a teacup...since you will all be reading the last book, won't you? No matter how much you hate Linden.

[lurch]

NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own.

Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else.

bah to that. If Donaldson only wrote for himself and I never heard of this story then I would agree with you. When you publish your books with the intent to sell, expect readers to pay good money, then you open yourself to scrutiny - be it good or bad.


I didn't exactly want this to evolve into another discussion regarding Linden Avery; I merely put that title up there for more humor's sake than anything else. I don't dislike Linden, not that much anyways. I just prefer Covenant. And these are the Chronicles of Linden Avery - which I'm good with - just call a spade a spade.
And enough of Linden in this topic; she's not nearly interesting enough to warrant all this discussion. That was one small part of my review, one I consider the least important.

Dude..you have demanded Respect for your Review,,without giving any respect to the Art, the Author, and ultimately, to your self. The idea that Art is meant to take you beyond yourself..take one to terra incognito escapes you thoroughly as evidenced by your " bah to that"..You wonder why I give you no respect, its because you give none yourself. So, I have to ask,,this thread,, what is your Real Purpose here? You have replied when logically,,no reply would have verified your perspective as laid out in the review. So..you are just seeing how long you can string folks along with your baiting?..seeing how p.o.ed you can get folks just to show how human they are and how hypocritical you can make them look with your nonsense you are trying pass of as informed and logical. ? Are you auditioning for a Raver part in the forgotten TC movie? Sorry dude..your game I've seen all over the web, nothing new here. I'm done with this thread.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I suppose the question that occurs to me now is this: if the ur-viles had the manacles made prior to the start of the Final Chronicles, why did they wait so long to use them?

This one was answered in AATE. The ur-viles did not know what the manacles were for. They created them on the basis of mere possibilities. Esmer's arrival on the scene got their attention, but they still did not know exactly what use the manacles were intended for - not until the exact moment the opportunity to use them presented itself.

[Revan]

NO author is under ANY obligation to satisfy anyone's expectations but his or her own.

Donaldson has made it abundantly clear multiple times in his Gradual Interview that he writes for himself, not for YOU or anyone else.

bah to that. If Donaldson only wrote for himself and I never heard of this story then I would agree with you. When you publish your books with the intent to sell, expect readers to pay good money, then you open yourself to scrutiny - be it good or bad.


I didn't exactly want this to evolve into another discussion regarding Linden Avery; I merely put that title up there for more humor's sake than anything else. I don't dislike Linden, not that much anyways. I just prefer Covenant. And these are the Chronicles of Linden Avery - which I'm good with - just call a spade a spade.
And enough of Linden in this topic; she's not nearly interesting enough to warrant all this discussion. That was one small part of my review, one I consider the least important.

Dude..you have demanded Respect for your Review,,without giving any respect to the Art, the Author, and ultimately, to your self. The idea that Art is meant to take you beyond yourself..take one to terra incognito escapes you thoroughly as evidenced by your " bah to that"..You wonder why I give you no respect, its because you give none yourself. So, I have to ask,,this thread,, what is your Real Purpose here? You have replied when logically,,no reply would have verified your perspective as laid out in the review. So..you are just seeing how long you can string folks along with your baiting?..seeing how p.o.ed you can get folks just to show how human they are and how hypocritical you can make them look with your nonsense you are trying pass of as informed and logical. ? Are you auditioning for a Raver part in the forgotten TC movie? Sorry dude..your game I've seen all over the web, nothing new here. I'm done with this thread.

I find this both humorous and perplexing. wow. *grin* all this over my opinion on a book... I'm satan's asshole apparently, because i disapproved of some points of Donaldson's work (who, inspite of your impressions, I respect as much as anyone here, which is why I was so puzzled at feeling this way about AATE in the first place) Your reaction is so improportionate, so based on assumptions on someone you know no nothing about I can't really take it personally.

I've demanded no respect for my review. You can print it out and wipe your ass with it for all I care. I may have asked you, lurch, to respond politely - or better yet, convince me otherwise about my opinions. You don't like them, I will say it again analyse, dissect, and discuss it with me. I have said this numerous times. A few people here have, through astute observation, make me think twice about a few of my criticisms.

I think a few people are viewing my points way too personally here; which is understandable - Donaldson is much respected - and any attack on his works will inevitably be seen as an attack on him. I'm not attacking anything here, I am merely expressing my dissappointment with several area's of the book. For crying out loud it's just an opinion, and it's just a book! This is not nearly important enough to get this worked up about.

That's the difference between discussing and complaining.

wise words aliantha. Now you fancy grabbing a caesure to last week and telling me that.

I love TC and I love Linden. The tension between them is wonderful (except I just wish one of them would say I love you! while the other is conscious!
I await their continued love story ....

Seriously; I think this is why Linden didn't work for me in the first two books. I loved in her Second Chronicles. Thomas' and her love story was the best (if not most lighted) one Donaldson's ever done. Linden without Covenant just seems incomplete. Just as Covenant without Linden would seem weird to me now. My favourite parts in AATE were the interaction between these two. I was just shouting at the screen "KISS EACH OTHER". Anyone else loving it when she hugged him after he saved her from Roger?

Here's a thought; anyone else here reckon Covenant will need the Land's version of viagra after 3500 without? "hellfire, sorry about that Linden... it's been a while".