Sacrifice

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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aliantha
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Sacrifice

Post by aliantha »

I'm re-reading Covenant's race across the Spoiled Plains toward Joan, and it struck me that one of the underlying themes of the whole 2nd Chrons has been sacrifice. Specifically, self-sacrifice.

Covenant seems to have turned a corner -- maybe even done a 180 -- when it comes to this topic. In TWL, he smiles at Joan and offers himself in her place -- a literal sacrifice. At the end of AATE, he is unwilling to sacrifice the Land to save her again. It's almost as if his actions at the ruins of Foul's Creche are a do-over for his willingness to save her in TWL.

This is a clear indication of how different Covenant has become -- of how far he has come for the guy who smiled at his ex-wife and laid himself on a rock to die.

But he also doesn't have much of anything complimentary to say about the Masters. He tells Branl and Clyme that he respects the hell out of them, but he disagrees with their contention that good cannot be accomplished by evil means. He says, "There are always evil means." And the only way to avoid evil means is to do nothing -- to make no choices. But of course (as *I've* often said :biggrin:), not choosing is also a choice. In the Masters' case, they're choosing what they perceive as safety, against the possibility of another Loric or Damelon or Berek. Which is a sacrifice in a different way.

Linden, too, is choosing -- to rescue Jeremiah before she does anything else. She's not only sacrificing her friends to do it (or, more accurately, they're sacrificing themselves in her service), but making the kid her first priority means she herself has to come second (at best). Parents often put their kids' welfare first -- or they pay in feelings of guilt that they didn't do enough.

Anyway, what do y'all think? Is sacrifice a theme, or is it a facet of "good cannot be accomplished by evil means"?
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

"Sacrifice," on its own, can't be a theme. Although one could simply state the theme that way, sacrifice usually aims at something higher than that which is sacrificed. The term itself contains the word "sacred." It not only aims at something higher, but even transcendent, usually of the self, and I see you mentioned "self-sacrifice" at the beginning of your comment.

Sacrifice finds its place in the Chrons through the redemption of guilt. (That is a Christian oriented theme.) In this last work especially, I think, Donaldson hammers away at this theme without end, particularly through Linden.

Good and evil become intertwined, the distinctions obscured, in Donaldson's view. They are obscured by the limitations of the human mind. Every cloud has its silver lining. Life entails death, but death also entails life; but we find death undesirable although it is a necessary part of nature and serves to further life which is the good.

It is not so much that what is good to you may seem bad to me, and vice versa. It plays out in the Chrons that what seems bad now may, and probably will, turn out for the good later on, although at the moment all anybody can see is the darkness.

If Linden aimed at sacrifice as a good, it will likely turn to evil leading to despair and self-recrimination; then, eventually it will turn to good again, but at that point it won't be Linden's doing. That's kharma, that's the wheel of life; and for Linden, her destiny is to be forever a victim of self-doubt.

Notice how the opposition in this book - I won't call Infelice evil, merely opposed to the quest's aims - loves to use Linden's self-doubt against her. Infelice has asserted, quite out of context, that whenever something went right, Linden had no part in it; but whenever something went wrong, Linden was fully to blame. And Linden just eats up this kind of reasoning, although she then uses her despair to take action against the opposition, against Infelice, as if to show that only she has the right to cast aspersions against herself. If it wasn't for such external proddings at her sense of guilt, I don't see where Linden would accomplish anything useful, even if her ultimate goal is only to prove herself unworthy of the burden her own choices have forced upon her.

On the other hand, there is another point, which I think Covenant reasoned out, that without Linden's very presence, as SunSage and Healer, those who accomplished the good would not have acted at all, although Linden may not have enacted the deed itself. That is where Infelice's reasoning is flawed, out of context of the choices made by others surrounding Linden.

[Edit - I put this comment through at least half a dozen changes after its first submission.]
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Post by lurch »

If I may Aliantha, imho..the blurring of,good coming out of evil means, evil coming out of good intentions,,all that as demonstrated in AATE,,is intentional by the author. What is good,,what is evil, changes to its opposite in this book , so often that the Subjectivity of the state of good and state of evil is what seems to me to be the authors point. Its as if he has black, he has white, and swirls the two opposites together so much that a 3rd element,,Gray,,is his intended creation,, where he takes us to..Yea..the sun didn't rise and the stars are disappearing one by one.

As to sacrifice, yes TC is changed. Your comparison of the Joan treatment by TC is great. Heck..look at how he is basically okay ,,resigned, to sacrificing the destrier. So..omg,,sorry, another perverse Donaldson joke just occurred to me, but anyway, its all due to TC being Infinite and now not. While constantly loosing the memory of it..its still like stretching a balloon to infinity and then letting the air out..It may have forgotten the air, but the skin of it remembers the infinite, TC's frame of mind, while now mortal, physically, still knows the experience of being infinite. It is with infinite Compassion that Thomas Convenant ends Joans eternal torment.
Here is question to ponder:..Is there a variation of the God of the New Testament in this changed TC.? What I am saying is..the God of the New Testament is...a God who so Loved Mankind, that He would Sacrifice His own Son for Mankind...TC so Loves the Land, that he would Sacrifice Joan for it..and yet to be seen..perhaps his own son? What is being defined here is LOVE. or ..the Infinite nature of LOVE? ( please, I'm not getting all religious here..I AM talking about the expansion of the concept of LOVE, not religion).

To me, the author sacrifices the Insequent for our behalf. Their strictures are an accepted deal with unsatisfactory end.. The author sacrifices them so we and or Linden sees the folly of their.".how it is." The author sacrifices even Our Expectations so perhaps We may " see" a different reality. The first paragraph of AATE has a certain " humor" about it in how it treats the reader..imho. We were left at the end of FR with the question.." Linden, What Have You Done!!?? The author..by the tone and direction of the 1st paragraph..doesn't seem to be in a hurry to answer Our need for that question to be answered as We deem prudent. Basically,,the author takes all of AATE, to answer that question.

The author..seems to suggest,,that Change ,,if perceived in the terms of polarized black vs white,,good vs evil,,is self destructive,,while Change , if perceived in terms of evolving to a gray, is a step towards the Infinite. Perhaps , Against All Things Ending,,is the notion of sacrificing the polarized , parametered , inside the box perspective of Good vs Evil with its inevitable Conflict bringing an " End"..for a outside the box perspective,, a Mysterious Infinity to be explored.?
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Post by Vraith »

Interesting stuff here...and hidden/implied, too...by which I mean:
No good by evil means? Doesn't that also mean no evil by good means?
Logically, it should...but we reject that, road to hell and good intentions...

The problem is knowledge...no matter our goals/intentions, nothing goes as planned. I don't think the point/end is a swirling into gray. I think it is a complete discreteness. In the wholeness of things, "the end justfies [or not] the means" is not only untrue, or fallacious, or debatable, it is a non-sequitor. No matter how much we WANT to connect what is/what do to what happens, the happening is never under our control/within our sight. Every act can ONLY be judged on the precise and limited circumstances of that specific instant...regardless of outcome.

And this relates to sacrifice indirectly. As a general rule, I hate sacrifice...I think it is trite, over-rated, sickly sentimental, and often selfish. [in RL, too, not just fiction]. But occasionally, and SRD does it fairly often, it is a different kind of act. The difference is between "I'm giving my life for the future, the greater good...things unknowable, as above...and "I'm doing this because it is the perfect expression of what I am, the culmination of my being." The first is junk...the second means something.
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Post by lurch »

AAH Vraith,,you touch on creating a future. Thats kinda where we are at , at end of AATE. Major obstacles removed, changes apparent, purposes fulfilled,,now what? The Worm is coming.

IMHO..one does not create a future by repeating the past. One simply repeats the past; not the same as creating a future. Each of us has the ability to Create ,,create our future. Perhaps not being dependent on the external world for our future,,deals effectively with the frustrations the external world gives us.Any ones Future is about You, who You Are, Your Talents, Your Potentials. The external world's interaction with You, with what You Create,,with what you explore and discover in your Imagination, is secondary and maybe even all the way to Non Sequitor, after all its about being True to Yourself.

Creating a Future..and not simply repeating the past..evokes a Hope. Yes? In that Hope,,there is some degree of Trust. That Trust, acknowledges that the End goal isn't always obtainable,,that indeed what actually happens isn't even what we expected or wanted...but..this is the key now, so lets turn it and open the door as I think SRD is about to or begun to do..that Hope with Trust, when infused with Love,,will bring a future that is of magnificence and beauty..You. Creating a Future is about exploring Who You Are..not what the external world Is. You Shape the environment around You by Being Who You Are. You create your future by being True to yourself, your humanity. How many artists where only discovered , after their deaths? talk about Hope ,Trust, Love,,with little regard to the external world!

With out Love,,there is no creating a future. There is only repeating the past. Linden..in remaining in Love with the dead Convenant all those years..in giving Love to Jerry who cannot return it, thus ,,Linden not able to realize the fullness of Love, the full gestalt of Love, has not created a future. She simply repeated the past over and over again ( Joan?) until one day..despair came knocking on her door. She was trapped by her own makings of Time and Space.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
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Post by earthbrah »

Entelechy: the actualization of form-giving cause as contrasted with potential existence. (MW) There is another more biological use for this term, but the idea is essentially that, in the development of ... something ... a human, an seedling, a galaxy, or really any system ...the ultimate goal, the attractor, the end, the desired stable state is contained within the means or system itself.

I agree with Vraith about sacrifice, that it should never be done in the sense of giving anything as a loss to yourself for another, but rather should only be done as an expression of who you are. But then, it's not really a sacrifice, is it? :?:

At least, I don't see Covenant's killing of Joan in the light of sacrifice. Some wounds just have to be cut out. He did what he had to do. And he managed to bring Joan a moment of peace and sanity before the end. He restored a piece of herself as part of his act to end her madness. Besides, he gained knowledge and a transformation through the act itself. Unexpected? Most likely. But nonetheless...
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Post by timetraveler8 »

I think SRD is just having a great old time with the tension and uncertainty raised by an individual's best efforts to do what is right without perfect knowledge or foresight, and with so many factors outside of the individual's control. The theme that the writing is evoking in me is not whether the characters are doing the right thing from an ends standpoint or a means standpoint, but whether their intentions are right/justified/sufficiently compelling. Great stuff!!!
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

timetraveler8 wrote:I think SRD is just having a great old time with the tension and uncertainty raised by an individual's best efforts to do what is right without perfect knowledge or foresight, and with so many factors outside of the individual's control. The theme that the writing is evoking in me is not whether the characters are doing the right thing from an ends standpoint or a means standpoint, but whether their intentions are right/justified/sufficiently compelling. Great stuff!!!
"Intentions of the heart" is a theme from Christianity. Donaldson is ever the Christian in his writing, and even if he doesn't intend it in his mind, his heart speaks the truth.
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Post by Vraith »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
timetraveler8 wrote:I think SRD is just having a great old time with the tension and uncertainty raised by an individual's best efforts to do what is right without perfect knowledge or foresight, and with so many factors outside of the individual's control. The theme that the writing is evoking in me is not whether the characters are doing the right thing from an ends standpoint or a means standpoint, but whether their intentions are right/justified/sufficiently compelling. Great stuff!!!
"Intentions of the heart" is a theme from Christianity. Donaldson is ever the Christian in his writing, and even if he doesn't intend it in his mind, his heart speaks the truth.
Yoga/Buddhism have a fair amount to say on intentions as well, as do the more esoteric portions of martial arts...which he also seems familiar with.
TT8 seems to be on a similar track with me here: in many ways, all we have when we act are our intentions.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
timetraveler8 wrote:I think SRD is just having a great old time with the tension and uncertainty raised by an individual's best efforts to do what is right without perfect knowledge or foresight, and with so many factors outside of the individual's control. The theme that the writing is evoking in me is not whether the characters are doing the right thing from an ends standpoint or a means standpoint, but whether their intentions are right/justified/sufficiently compelling. Great stuff!!!
"Intentions of the heart" is a theme from Christianity. Donaldson is ever the Christian in his writing, and even if he doesn't intend it in his mind, his heart speaks the truth.
Yoga/Buddhism have a fair amount to say on intentions as well, as do the more esoteric portions of martial arts...which he also seems familiar with.
TT8 seems to be on a similar track with me here: in many ways, all we have when we act are our intentions.
Donaldson listened to thousands of his father's sermons as a pre-adult. During his stay in India he was not allowed any contact with the culture there.

Your references to yoga/Buddhism and even karate as speaking to intentions of the heart seem a rather drastic way of trying to water down the powerful Christian influence. Donaldson may not be a Christian per se, but he is definitely not a Buddhist. On the other hand, I wouldn't try to accuse Donaldson of using his works to proselytize for any particular religion given his many denials, including a very recent one, on the GI concerning this very issue. On 3/24/2004, Donaldson did reveal his primary influences:
Now, it just so happens that my resources include an intensive background in fundamentalist Christianity, a fair acquaintance with French existentialism, and an instinct for conceptual thought.
These do shine through in his works. Anything else is coincidental because, for one thing, the Golden Rule has been found, in various forms, to exist in so many various cultures around the world.

On 4/7/2004 he also wrote:
If anything, the tradition I was drawing on was Christian (because of my background in fundamentalist Christianity, not because I am in any useful sense a believer): the Trinity, God in Three Persons. Except I obviously wasn't thinking of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. More like Creator, Destroyer, and Holy Ghost (wild magic).
There is a similar response on 5/27/2004, and this on 3/21/2005:
I've had several occasions to mention that I was raised by fundamentalist Christian missionaries. That stuff is so deeply engrained in me that I can hardly get out of bed in the morning without a Christian reference of some kind. <grin>
On 2/28/2006:
If you see Christian allegory in "The Chronicles," that's what you get. If, on the other hand, you see an existentialist diatribe against any attempt to impose external meaning on human actions--or perhaps against any attempt to alter the relationship between human actions and their consequences--that's also what you get.
And on 4/27/2004, there is a Donaldson denial of Buddhist influence:
Mark Jeffrey wrote:There seems to be a lot of themes of 'shared identity' throughout the series -- "You are the white gold"; Foul is Covenant's dark side, the side that despises himself. Foul is also the "brother" of the Creator. So, in a sense, they are all really One. This seems to be a rather gnostic or buddhist viewpoint ...
Donaldson wrote:If anything, the tradition I was drawing on was Christian (because of my background in fundamentalist Christianity, not because I am in any useful sense a believer)...
But then on 11/9/2010, Donaldson states that it is hard to say if there are any major Buddhist influences in his works besides the creation of Raver names and the like. I myself think there are minor Buddhist influences, used particularly in describing Haruchai culture. But these take no part in the major themes of the Chrons.

It would, for example, be redundant for Donaldson to rely on both Buddhism/yoga and Christianity for his theme regarding the importance of intentions. If he was an explicit Buddhist with a Christian upbringing, I would say "yes" to the idea. But since he is not a Buddhist, I have to say "no."
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Post by Vraith »

I wasn't denying the influence of the christian, though it's not christian allegory, of course...he works against and across the ideas and influences as much as with.

My point was that he also knows other things, [maybe things used to be different, but I don't know how it would be possible to have a Masters in Lit. without exposure to eastern philosophy] and the view of "intentions," like other ethical/metaphysical issues is complex and in conflict with itself, and this is surely....intentional. :lol:
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Vraith wrote:I wasn't denying the influence of the christian, though it's not christian allegory, of course...he works against and across the ideas and influences as much as with.

My point was that he also knows other things, [maybe things used to be different, but I don't know how it would be possible to have a Masters in Lit. without exposure to eastern philosophy] and the view of "intentions," like other ethical/metaphysical issues is complex and in conflict with itself, and this is surely....intentional. :lol:
I know you're not denying it. But I'm saying that intentions of the heart, even if it is not limited to Christianity any more than is the Golden Rule, is for Donaldson a Christian concept.
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Post by timetraveler8 »

Coincidentally, SRD just posted a response on his gradual interview that is on point:
Cambo Morrison: My question has to do with the subtle presence of a lot of Buddhist concepts in the Covenant books. The most obvious are Sanskrit words as character names like the samadhi, moksha, turiya and dukkha. By the way, I thought having inherently deceptive, body snatching creatures name themselves after words for unity, liberation and pure mind was a nice ironic touch.

But when I start mining for Buddhist interpretations, they keep on coming. The caamoora can be read in relation to certain Zen meditations that use pain as a catalyst, and the importance of purity and victory through surrender in the Second Chronicles fit well with Buddhist philosophy. The use of paradox is also very similar.

Are these correlations intentional on your part? Were the themes of Thomas Covenant influenced by Buddhism in any major way, or was it just a minor element that gave us some cool character names?

Response: After a long hiatus, I find myself once again retreating to the assertion that I’m not a polemicist. I don’t write stories to promote--or even to explore--religious, philosophical, or spiritual insights. To the best of my ability, I ask religious, philosophical, and spiritual questions in an attempt to discover everything contained within a story I’ve been given to write. Sure, I’m sensitive to the points you raise. And in one sense, their relevance is intentional: in the sense that I’m trying to find everything I’m capable of finding in my story. But in another sense, that relevance is definitely *not* intentional (I mean “intentional” in the sense of espousing my own beliefs).

So: “influenced by Buddhism in any major way”? Hard to say. Anything that influences me influences my work. But I don’t use my work to explore or promote those influences. That probably doesn’t answer your question; but I don’t know what else to say.

(11/09/2010)
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

timetraveler8 wrote:Coincidentally, SRD just posted a response on his gradual interview that is on point:
I know, I cited that one in my previous reply, note the date, "But then on 11/9/2010, Donaldson states that it is hard to say if there are any major Buddhist influences in his works..."
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Post by timetraveler8 »

Sorry about that. I wish I could say my mind just cannot hold all that time (as in the beginning of AATE) but obviously I was just reading posts without digesting them sufficiently.
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