How bad is it?

[earthbrah]

As a general comment, I'd like to say that I really like these Last Chronicles, and especially liked AATE.

I see these stories as extensions of who Donaldson is as a person and an artist. His work has always spoken to me, as I'm certain it has to all of you at some point and in some way. This particular story has spoken to me because I find so many aspects of myself in the story. Or rather, the story contains a good deal of meaning that I have found true and relevant to my own life. These Last Chronicles hold true in that respect for me.

SRD wrote (GI, 11/28/07):

What else am I writing about, if not "normal mortals" and "daily life"? Fantasy is just my way of approaching my subject matter (at least in the "Chronicles").

[Cambo]

I loved the Last Chronicles. All of it, including AATE. Some of the detractors seem to like painting AATE's defenders as fighting a rearguard action on Donaldson's behalf, throwing up defenses such as "themes" and "narrative" to hide the fact that, deep down, we all felt Donaldson failed as a storyteller this time around.

Well, no. Themes and narrative and structure are all important things to me that enhance my enjoyment of any novel...on the re-read. I agree with the detractors that a book that doesn't grip and hold you can't be redeemed by heavy themes. But my first reads of all three LC books were just as the first trilogies: I was gripped from start to finish, and I enjoyed everything about them.

I refused to read AATE until I had re-read ROTE and FR straight beforehand. I took those books slow, taking time to notice narrative hints, thematic metaphors, etc. AATE I devoured in three sittings. So my defense of AATE, leaving out the no doubt excellent thematic and narrative development, is this: for me, it simply kicked ass.

Note: I just wrote a list of all the parts of the story I loved, but deleted cause I remembered Z didn't want any spoilers. Rest assured, it was a long list.

There have been many people claiming- some hesitantly, some not- that Donaldson has failed as a storyteller if he can no longer involve his long time fans with the story. Well, I haven't been a fan as long as many of you (for the simple reason I haven't been around as long as many of you )but I don't think any of you can trump me on passion for the first two series, any more than I would try to trump you. And I found Donaldson's newest work to be as viscerally affecting as anything he's written so far.

So, we have to conclude, the LC are polarising amongst SRD fans. Does this mean he failed? I don't think so. The old truism goes that artists want lots of five star and one star reviews, not a heap of three stars. Dividing opinion means that the artist has done something brave, especially if you get such deep divisions within their fanbase.

Some of you don't like it. I even understand some of your reasons, while I don't share them. I won't accuse you of "not getting it" if you don't accuse me of secretly agreeing with you. Deal?

[sammadhi]

all 9 of these novels have been outstanding. i have thoroughly enjoyed each and everyone. TWL was by far my favorite but AATE is still excellent!!!

sucks we mest wait till 2013

[thewormoftheworld'send]

all 9 of these novels have been outstanding. i have thoroughly enjoyed each and everyone. TWL was by far my favorite but AATE is still excellent!!!

sucks we mest wait till 2013

I'm finding that most if not all the complaints here about AATE look as if they were copied straight out of certain Amazon reviews. Perhaps they were. But this forum still has many posts that shine forth with original ideas - and for some reason, the original thoughts always accompany positive comments about the book.

Just thought I'd mention it.

[sammadhi]

i havent read the reviews about the book, except from here. i personally cant say i "hated" anything about AATE. i didnt like the way it ended but it wasnt bad, just aggravating that i must wait. it was nice to have TCs POV return, if only to bargain with the lurker then kill joan!!!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

i havent read the reviews about the book, except from here. i personally cant say i "hated" anything about AATE. i didnt like the way it ended but it wasnt bad, just aggravating that i must wait. it was nice to have TCs POV return, if only to bargain with the lurker then kill joan!!!

You're certainly free to read the reviews there. You'll see what I mean. Right now the 5-star reviews stand at 23 out of 51 total reviews. The 4 and 5 star reviews still outweigh the lower ratings. Of course you realize that the thread starter was based partly on reading (or more likely, quickly glancing through) Amazon reviews.

That's not the only location for reviews, at another site someone claimed that the book consisted entirely of Linden whining.

I've looked around for professional reviews but couldn't find any. I'm not impressed with 5-star fanboy reviews that simply say "read the book!" I have however enjoyed this forum particularly the fact that the fanboy comments have been kept to a minimum.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I haven't read the Amazon reviews but I'd be very surprised if the posts here are copy-pasted from there, Worm. To claim that the members of these boards haven't even read the book (except for the few who openly said they didn't like Fist) seems preposterous.

The reasoning for dislike seemed concrete enough and grounded in what was there in the book.


Personally, I loved the book. There are flaws, mainly the side characters. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing between the different giants though others like the ramen have gotten much better. But Linden's and Covenant's psyches are superbly drawn. I think the tradeoff is a winner in the end. Better one incandescent central character than a bunch of shining ones. That's why I liked Fatal Revenant the best of this series so far. It concentrated on Linden's character to the exclusion of other things.

As for the Land, it also had quite a few settings to captivate me so I disagree with those saying it was all blah but I would have liked to pause and have a chance to look at some of them better before the story moves on.

The plot bothered me at times because I felt there were missed opportunities that could have been great. Esmer's story, Roger's relationship with his father and his seducer, the Harrow. They were never explored but perhaps Joan's was.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm finding that most if not all the complaints here about AATE look as if they were copied straight out of certain Amazon reviews. Perhaps they were. But this forum still has many posts that shine forth with original ideas - and for some reason, the original thoughts always accompany positive comments about the book.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Knock it off.

[Hiro]

I'm finding that most if not all the complaints here about AATE look as if they were copied straight out of certain Amazon reviews. Perhaps they were. But this forum still has many posts that shine forth with original ideas - and for some reason, the original thoughts always accompany positive comments about the book.

Just thought I'd mention it.

What is the point of all these personal attacks?

Does it add anything to these threads, or the arguments?

Is it respectful and or civil behavior to disparage others?

[Zarathustra]

I'm finding that most if not all the complaints here about AATE look as if they were copied straight out of certain Amazon reviews.

That ought to be extremely easy to prove. Care to give an example?

I liked this book for the first 100 pages. I bragged about it, defended Linden against attacks in the chapter 1 thread, enjoyed taking it slow and mulling over every sentence. Just ask Shadowbinding shoe. Or better yet, go check out the first 3 pages of his Reading Along thread. Once the book went downhill for me, I dropped out of that discussion mainly because I didn't want to be a source of negativity in a thread where others were still enjoying it. I did that out of respect for my fellow Watchers. I'm genuinely glad that others are having fun with it, and don't want to take anything away their experience of it.

This thread, however, is different. It's a thread about how bad it is, so I feel freer to voice a negative opinion without being a buzzkill. [It's also become a thread to bash people who have problems with the book and malign them with unfounded accusations like plagiarism without providing a shred of evidence, apparently. I honestly can't believe this great site has sunk to such lows. Thanks for the watchful eye, HLT, but we sorely need more of it. The AATE forum no longer feels like a place to freely exchange ideas and opinions without personal attacks against those with a dissenting opinion. It's really sad to see this place go downhill like this. I assumed we were all adults here.]

I LOVE nearly everything Donaldson has written. His work has been a huge inspiration in my life. (Ask me what color my wedding ring is!) I even love many parts of AATE. But for me, when characters spend nearly 200 pages in one spot, eating, sleeping, chit-chatting, bathing, while the world is ending, and then because they are so directionless and clueless they allow their freakin horses to decide where to go next, I start questioning the dramatic choices of the author.

I *praised* the first 100 pages of the book because I felt like it was a bold choice for an author to have his characters sit in one spot for 5 chapters and discuss the ramifications of the colossal event which had just happened (bringing TC back to the land of the living). That moment earned a 100 page breathing space in the 10-book saga of the Chronicles, and I was more than willing to soak it in. I was enthralled by Donaldson's ability to think of so much for these people to say and feel. I praised the delicate way he delineated the difference between despair and despite, the way he showed us Linden's agonizing over giving up her powers.

But then we get to the second part of the book, and that gypsum ridge starts to feel like home. In fact, it starts to feel like the one place in the whole universe. I've spent weeks on that damn gypsum ridge. The characters sit there so long, they get attacked not once, but twice. In the same spot! First, after plenty of sleeping/bathing/eating/pontificating, they get attacked. Do they leave this place now that their enemies know exactly where they're at? Hell no. They sleep/bathe/eat/pontificate some more. The giants decide it's a good time to show off their handiwork at building stone monuments (for a character who has done absolutely nothing this whole series except to be a human flashlight a couple times and then die pointlessly). They sit there so long, that--what do you know--they get attacked again. And this time it's even more sad and costly and exhausting. What's a group of heroes to do? Sit and eat and bath and pontificate some more. Oh, and build more stone monuments.

I've already read Waiting for Godot. I got the deep existential themes, the "threnody of hope," depicted by characters who sit around and do nothing. I didn't want a rehash of that. I did not expect the Chronicles to be Waiting for Donaldson to GetOnWithIt.

Did you read *that* on Amazon? I wouldn't know, because I haven't read any reviews there.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I asked Worm, via pm, to stop making flame posts like he did.
This is a great well thought out and a passionate thread for the most part.

Lets keep it on the merits of the story and remember we all have different opinions.

Love, kisses and hugs and shit.....

[Hiro]

Zarathustra, thank you for that lucid and very well argued post! Where is the 'thanks' or 'good post' button when you need one?

You have put into words much of what I have felt regarding AATE and this forum, much better than I could have.

And HLT, I hope your efforts pay off, thank you for your attention.

[Zarathustra]

Hiro, thanks! I've enjoyed your posts as well. Sometimes it is cathartic and reassuring to share a bad experience with others, even experiences like disappointment. (Come to think of it, that's kind of what Linden and Co. are doing! )

This Amazon review thing made me curious what was being said over there. So I read the reviews. All 53 of them. I realized that perhaps one of the reasons why complaints there sound similar to things said here is very easily explained: Kevins Watch members are posting reviews over there. I recognized a few names. Maybe there are even more KW posters writing reviews who used a different name there. It's not plagiarism if you sound like yourself.

I also found it ironic that the majority of the negative Amazon reviews were well-written, original, witty (some made me laugh out loud), and focused on the book itself. Guess what quality many of the positive reviews shared? That's right: condescension toward reviewers who were disappointed. How original.

As I was reading, copied a few of the worst examples:

If you like genre fantasy, where everything follows the rails and the archetypes are respected, this can be a very, very difficult series to read. … This refusal to colour inside the lines can be intensely frustrating to those who like formula books, and you can see that frustration boiling over in many of the reviews.

… if you rush through, or "devour" it, you tend to miss half the impact of the book. Personally I suggest that this is one of the reasons that some have written negative reviews with insufficient justification, IMO. I would venture that another reason is that this brand of adult, intellectual fantasy is not for everyone. I feel I need to make this point, because SRD has deepened his introspective style for the Last Chronicles, which raises me to question those negative reviewers who claim to have been fans but suddenly negatively criticize this latest book. If you want cookie cutter, i.e. mainstream, fantasy (as said reviewers seem to indirectly plead) then - I repeat - this is not for you.

Without wishing to insult the current mixed reviews of Against All Things Ending, the reading of such a fine book is dependent upon what type of reading and life experiences you are prepared to bring to the text.

Some reviewers have been impatient with this yet I ask how many people accept the characters on their own terms instead of judging them? How many reviewers have suffered enough to listen with shared understanding and compassion? Having been driven to attempt suicide, for me the pain of Donaldson's characters- and their reasons for going on! - are gutwrenchingly familiar.

This book continues to build upon a theme. If one thinks that the story final chronicles of T.C. is self contained within these three books of four, then they have yet to see the larger point. The Chronicles of T.C. is a series of 3 Sets of books. If one finds faults in this book, for whatever reason, you are missing a greater point.

Wow! That's quite a collection of fan-bashing. Apparently we're just dumb children who should stick to formulas, coloring books, cookie-cutters. Or we're not real fans at all. Or we don't bring the right life experiences. Or we're too judgmental. Or we haven't been driven to attempt suicide ourselves (who puts that in a book review??). Or, the most ridiculous one of all: if you find fault for any reason whatsoever, you're missing the point. You're not allowed to find any fault!

Man, that's some funny reading.

[Hiro]

Phew, indeed...

Actually, I can't recall I have ever written a review for Amazon. Certainly not in the past few years.

The glaring point of condescending behavior is of course, that it makes someone's own case and arguments only weaker.

On the other hand, I can understand that people could feel personally offended by the criticism, since reading is such an intimate experience.

For me, I was not offended by the positive reviews and opinions, or some replies to criticisms raised. I was surprised and hurt though by the personal attacks.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm finding that most if not all the complaints here about AATE look as if they were copied straight out of certain Amazon reviews.

That ought to be extremely easy to prove. Care to give an example?

It's not like a charge of plagiarism, I'm just seeing the same comments as if they came straight from Amazon reviews. For all I know, they could be some of the same reviewers. I'm not sure if you're asking me for a side-by-side comparison. But there is this negative tone with the theme - basically: Linden is whining all the time, and nothing happens in this book.

Nothing happens??? It appears to me, at least, that quite a bit happened. Everything was resolved that needed to be resolved in one book. Kevin, Elena, Anele, Liand, Joan, Esmer. And Covenant was resurrected again! (Ok, so the latter wasn't very obvious, but it is present in the book, Donaldson even used the word "Resurrected.")

I intend to give the book an even-handed treatment. But I don't see Linden whining - on occasion - as a flaw -- because, it is such an important theme to represent strong characters as weak. Even Stave showing a tiny bit of emotion, which to the Haruchai is weak, unforgivable, and erases Galt's sacrifice, is in fact revealing of newfound strength.

[peter]

But I draw a line when people make truth claims like:
"The book is crap."
That requires actual arguments/justifications...and since I liked the book quite a lot, I'll argue about it.

Fair point Vraith and I dutifully exend my wrist for a well deserved slap I was definitely feeling a bit angsty when I made that post and in redress I have decided to re-read AATE post haste. I live in hope (but not in expectation I'm afraid) that like the Buddah, enlightenment will descend on me like a lotus flower into an Indian pond, and that next week I shall be using equally reprehensible terminology to fight an equally lost corner from the other side of this bloody war of atrition.

(Just one point; I am suprised in this thread how many people seem to accept it as read that we have all struggled to get into other TC books, that TOT had a terrible ending and that we all know that Donaldson externalises his protagonists inner problems in a reflected situation in the Land in which they are marooned. I didn't, it didn't and I don't.)

[shadowbinding shoe]

I liked this book for the first 100 pages. I bragged about it, defended Linden against attacks in the chapter 1 thread, enjoyed taking it slow and mulling over every sentence. Just ask Shadowbinding shoe. Or better yet, go check out the first 3 pages of his Reading Along thread. Once the book went downhill for me, I dropped out of that discussion mainly because I didn't want to be a source of negativity in a thread where others were still enjoying it. I did that out of respect for my fellow Watchers. I'm genuinely glad that others are having fun with it, and don't want to take anything away their experience of it.

I enjoyed reading your take on the chapters in the Reading Along thread. Your comparison of the giants to pack-mules on the way out of the Lost Deep crystallized my unexpressed feelings about them and made me laugh.

Maybe you could come back there and give us more of your impressions of it (on the level of detail that thread was about). It wasn't all bad, was it? Not that criticism was ever unaccepted in there. It was a thread about personal impressions from reading the book as we went along.

Toward the end it felt a bit lonely making that thread.

[Hiro]

(Just one point; I am suprised in this thread how many people seem to accept it as read that we have all struggled to get into other TC books, that TOT had a terrible ending and that we all know that Donaldson externalises his protagonists inner problems in a reflected situation in the Land in which they are marooned. I didn't, it didn't and I don't.)

Same here on all accounts. TOT has always been one of my favorites of the Chron's.

[Atrium]

To Donaldsons credit - even when he fails he fails in an interesting way. After i read the book i felt a need to discuss it. Ive read plenty of bad books that i just put away after finishing and never gave a second thought. This thread has been great as a way of examining why AATE failed to move me. Maybe i, and other people sharing my sentiment, needed that! After all, we all obviously have some kind of emotional investement in the chronicles. Maybe we need some theraputic relief

As Zarathustra said, its pretty sad when people start shooting the messenger. I can understand debate threads going sour if the subject is politics, religion or other hot button stuff. But come on now, we are dissecting a fantasy book here! Why the need to speculate as to whether us critics have some sort of emphatic disorder? Or imply that were a little bit stupid? Or that we like simpleminded formulaic fantasy? Or accuse us of being one person posting from several accounts? Or insinuate that we copy and paste rewiews from Amazon?

Its actually funny in a way that some people respond in a kneejerk, "shoot the unbeliever!" fashion on a forum dedicated to the stories of TC the unbeliever, written by an author that makes it very clear that he has no patience with black&white worldwiews. Im sure Donaldson would be the first to defend our right to criticise. The fact that we put some time and effort into this discussion is in itself a monument to his qualities and achievments.

[shadowbinding shoe]

(Just one point; I am suprised in this thread how many people seem to accept it as read that we have all struggled to get into other TC books, that TOT had a terrible ending and that we all know that Donaldson externalises his protagonists inner problems in a reflected situation in the Land in which they are marooned. I didn't, it didn't and I don't.)

Same here on all accounts. TOT has always been one of my favorites of the Chron's.

Yes, me three. If anything, it was WGW I had problems with. The degree of destruction the Land suffered from by the end of that book was simply too great to feel any sense of victory.