If... (Re: the conversation of Stave and Linden, p. 468-473)

[SerScot]

Vraith,

Well, if we didn't have so much of her internal monolog we wouldn't think she's a whiner, would we. I still can't fathom her dismay that TC didn't want her to touch him. Get a grip.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

aliantha,

And that differs from Covenant in the 1st Chrons how, exactly?

There's a slight difference. Covenant was a repugnant git refusing to do anything. Linden is a despairing git attempting to do something while whining about how Covenant told her "not to touch me." The fact that the resurrected Covenant to essentailly take the baton from her boggles the mind given that she knew what he was, the *bleeping* keystone for the arch of time.

She was there when Covenant nearly woke the worm when he attempted to take a branch from the One Tree. Why did she imagine removeing Covenant from the Arch would have no larger impact? Then when it's done she harianges and moans about how horribly she screwed up. For the love of God move on and stop whining, please.

I suppose part of my problem is Donaldson has done the tortured anti-hero to death.

(BTW I'm enjoying the end of the book I've just arrived at the point where Jeremiah is doing Marrowmeld and Infelice just showed up.)

Disagree quite a lot. Yes, she is seriously troubled. But:
She pays tons of attention to others.
She has actually ACTED more often that TC ever did.
It's at least as much TC's fault as hers that she brought him back.
I'm not so sure the results [her reaction to them anyway] are being judged correctly...I think she'd do it again is she had a mulligan.

Does that apply to everything major she's done, including the bit about euthanizing her own mother?

And...a bit sharpness in the tone, but also humor since people seem delicate lately: Linden whines about .001% as often as people say, .00001% as often as some who say she whines, and with a couple orders of magnitude more justification for it.

[shadowbinding shoe]

On resolving Linden's emotional problems, do you think Covenant is capable of doing that? It seems to me the more I think about it that he is the wrong answer for her.

For her Covenant is someone she can hide with her unresolved issues behind. But a champion is not what she needs.

For him giving her his trust will lead her to self-realization. But inexplicable blind trust is not what she needs.

Covenant is a man that makes others humbled. In his names others exceed their limitations but they are not thereby healed of them.

Jeremiah on the other hand, responsive and exemplifying by his very existence her ability to create something precious instead of destroying it might be the thing she needs.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Vraith,

Well, if we didn't have so much of her internal monolog we wouldn't think she's a whiner, would we. I still can't fathom her dismay that TC didn't want her to touch him. Get a grip.

For me her profound insecurity and neediness felt natural at that point. Just thought what a psychiatrist would have told her to do: sniff some magic earthpowerful weeds!

[Vraith]

Vraith,

Well, if we didn't have so much of her internal monolog we wouldn't think she's a whiner, would we. I still can't fathom her dismay that TC didn't want her to touch him. Get a grip.

Can I be snippy? I won't, plenty of that going around. I will just repeat what I've said in various places at various times:
Linden doesn't whine.

And WOTWE: you bet your butt it includes killing her mom. [in my interpretation...the only thing different is that MAYBE Linden now wouldn't be crippled by doing it...at least not in the same way.]

S-Shoe: interesting idea. I see a slight difference [but still pondering]...To me, Linden is the type [or has become the type, anyway] that won't go blindly...that's why she questions so often...and TC, I think, is [since at least 2nd chron's] not the sort that demands, but inspires...that doesn't expect one to meet HIS expectations/standards, but ones own.

I think you're dead-on with Jerry...that might not be all he is, but definitely part of it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Vraith,

Well, if we didn't have so much of her internal monolog we wouldn't think she's a whiner, would we. I still can't fathom her dismay that TC didn't want her to touch him. Get a grip.

Can I be snippy? I won't, plenty of that going around. I will just repeat what I've said in various places at various times:
Linden doesn't whine.

And WOTWE: you bet your butt it includes killing her mom. [in my interpretation...the only thing different is that MAYBE Linden now wouldn't be crippled by doing it...at least not in the same way.]

You must mean "crippled by guilt." So you're telling me Linden is a type of person who does things she'll feel guilty for later, possibly even illegal as with euthanasia - and then would repeat them if she had the chance despite knowing she might have to live with the ugly guilt feelings? Furthermore, you think that nowadays she might not even feel guilty over euthanizing her own mother. I'm not necessarily doubting your interpretation, just asking for clarification, and maybe some elucidation, because it is a very ponderous notion.

edit - or she wouldn't feel crippled by guilt, correct?

[Vraith]

You must mean "crippled by guilt." So you're telling me Linden is a type of person who does things she'll feel guilty for later, possibly even illegal as with euthanasia - and then would repeat them if she had the chance despite knowing she might have to live with the ugly guilt feelings? Furthermore, you think that nowadays she might not even feel guilty over euthanizing her own mother. I'm not necessarily doubting your interpretation, just asking for clarification, and maybe some elucidation, because it is a very ponderous notion.

edit - or she wouldn't feel crippled by guilt, correct?

ummm...yes?. It's a progression of seemingly different dilemma, same outcome.
First time: she was just plain unprepared/unequipped for situation.
2nd chron's...probably couldn't have, at all.
Last Chron: would have, but everything to comfort [like joan, roughly], and still her own guilt.
Then dark Linden: Would have, buried guilt [making it actually worse] or wouldn't have despite suffering...depending on HER priorities.
Now: A hint of "it's Mom's choice" instead of crippling guilt both a sense of loss AND an acceptance of who chooses.
With TC, it's a bit different though: she's not choosing to slay one to save another [though that's what several want her to believe, and she does in part, that's one thing she's struggling with] She's choosing to risk one [the Land] for a chance that both will be saved.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

You must mean "crippled by guilt." So you're telling me Linden is a type of person who does things she'll feel guilty for later, possibly even illegal as with euthanasia - and then would repeat them if she had the chance despite knowing she might have to live with the ugly guilt feelings? Furthermore, you think that nowadays she might not even feel guilty over euthanizing her own mother. I'm not necessarily doubting your interpretation, just asking for clarification, and maybe some elucidation, because it is a very ponderous notion.

edit - or she wouldn't feel crippled by guilt, correct?

ummm...yes?. It's a progression of seemingly different dilemma, same outcome.
First time: she was just plain unprepared/unequipped for situation.
2nd chron's...probably couldn't have, at all.
Last Chron: would have, but everything to comfort [like joan, roughly], and still her own guilt.
Then dark Linden: Would have, buried guilt [making it actually worse] or wouldn't have despite suffering...depending on HER priorities.
Now: A hint of "it's Mom's choice" instead of crippling guilt both a sense of loss AND an acceptance of who chooses.
With TC, it's a bit different though: she's not choosing to slay one to save another [though that's what several want her to believe, and she does in part, that's one thing she's struggling with] She's choosing to risk one [the Land] for a chance that both will be saved.

Mom's choice; and Joan. Do you see a connection between Linden with her mom and Covenant's action at the end of AATE?

Why did the Ranyhyn lament?

[Vraith]

Mom's choice; and Joan. Do you see a connection between Linden with her mom and Covenant's action at the end of AATE?

Why did the Ranyhyn lament?

I do...more in the manner of a "parallel evolution" than a direct connection or intersection. Because there is a key difference: TC is fully aware of the circumstances, in a holistic [though I hate that word] way, that led to this.
Linden was brought to the decision point [with her mom] warped and unprepared. So for Linden, it was murder in the first. For TC, it was an act of empathy and understanding...which isn't to say it wasn't still hard.

I think the Ranyhyn lament because Joan in the Land, sane and whole and bearing white gold would have been the perfect Queen of the Ramen...or even soul-mate of their slain father. They could have bowed to her as they did to TC, but in adoration/love instead of terror/necessity.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Mom's choice; and Joan. Do you see a connection between Linden with her mom and Covenant's action at the end of AATE?

Why did the Ranyhyn lament?

I do...more in the manner of a "parallel evolution" than a direct connection or intersection. Because there is a key difference: TC is fully aware of the circumstances, in a holistic [though I hate that word] way, that led to this.
Linden was brought to the decision point [with her mom] warped and unprepared. So for Linden, it was murder in the first. For TC, it was an act of empathy and understanding...which isn't to say it wasn't still hard.

For Covenant, even killing a dull Cavewight is hard. But his relationship with his ex-wife has "evolved" to the point where he no longer exchanges himself for her. The parallel between his stabbing in TWL, and hers, is telling. That first sacrifice necessitated the second one, not through evolution, but simply because events have causally forced it. There was no freedom in either sacrifice. Because of the power he wields, Covenant has always been bereft of choice. Just as Donaldson stated in an interview, a hero that does not debate some hard choices is not a hero, e.g., Robert Howard's Conan. I'm not saying Covenant is a Conan knock-off, because the former's choices are not arbitrary while Conan's are. And at least Linden and Covenant engage in uncivilized acts for civilized reasons, for a good cause.

I think the Ranyhyn lament because Joan in the Land, sane and whole and bearing white gold would have been the perfect Queen of the Ramen...or even soul-mate of their slain father. They could have bowed to her as they did to TC, but in adoration/love instead of terror/necessity.

That's some interesting speculation.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I'm not a Linden hater by any stretch. But say she doesn't whine in this book particularly is a bit odd.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm not a Linden hater by any stretch. But say she doesn't whine in this book particularly is a bit odd.

This "Linden whining" idea seems to have become a meme probably originated by someone on this forum, and who is an American since those in other countries spell it "whingeing." So at this point, I would need an example of Linden whining or even whingeing.

There really are other things about AATE to ponder, such as the symmetry I pointed out above. Remember (of course you do) that at one point Covenant exchanged himself for Joan out of love, and was stabbed in the heart. After the end of AATE, to perfect the symmetry there will have to be a Joan resurrection.

[Vraith]

I'm not a Linden hater by any stretch. But say she doesn't whine in this book particularly is a bit odd.

This "Linden whining" idea seems to have become a meme probably originated by someone on this forum, and who is an American since those in other countries spell it "whingeing." So at this point, I would need an example of Linden whining or even whingeing.

Well, AFAICT, if someone stabbed you in the chest, and you said "ouch," and your name was Linden, that would qualify as whining.

More seriously though: In my world, if you're searching/resisting, attempting in thought and/or deed, to struggle, to get out, move forward, find solutions...that pretty much by definition isn't whining.

[johnsomc]

I'm coming late to this topic, but as usual, I will throwdown by challenging anyone to prove that Linden "whines" more than Thomas Covenant does in the original trilogy.

No, really. Go back and reread the original trilogy. Read it.

I have actually always read this as Donaldson's commentary on the completely unbelievable qualities of idealized "heroes"...and the idea that true heroes are terribly flawed individuals who overcome those flaws. Exposure to those flaws is necessary to comprehend those characters' progression towards true heroism. Therefore, in Donaldson's "universe," if you don't somehow dislike the very characters who bring about an heroic ending, then there is something wrong with you - there are NO heroes who are likeable. They are all flawed, they are all hypocrites, they are all like YOU AND ME. If you "liked" Linden, there would be something wrong with you...the same as Thomas Covenant. And therein lies their humanity.

[Zarathustra]

In this thread in the Runes Dissection, we discussed the issue of Linden being arrogant, and how her Real World life illustrated that.

The way I see it there are two possibilities.

A: SRD thinks that Linden is perfectly content and happy the way it is and it is only some of us who disagree.

B: Linden's inability to let go and move one indicate something else, maybe some kind of pride or arrogance on her part (because it is human to make mistakes and to have emotional and physical needs); makes me think of the pride of the Haruchai and the oath of the boodguard (but maybe this is too far-fetched)

Yeah. And calling Linden arrogant because she adopted a sick child is like calling someone selfish for volunteering to work in a shelter, or like calling someone a show-off because they give to charities. In fact, it is a humble act.

One final note: I don't see arrogance yet, but I think it might be a plausible description later.

The discussion there was obviously much richer and diverse than I can represent here with a few examples. You guys can check it out if you're interested. What I think is relevant to AATE is here:

She had spent so many years taking care of Jeremiah, so many years tending patients too damaged to provide for their own survival, that she had forgotten how to count on other kinds of relationships. She had allowed herself to believe only in Covenant--and now she doubted even him. Blind to the implications of her actions, she had in some sense treated all of her friends like children or invalids.
Even Liand. Even Stave.

Why else had she felt diminished whenever they ahd risen to the challenges which had defeated her?

She still did not comprehend why the Ranyhyn had risked taking her close to the lurker of the Sarangrae; but she knew what the experience meant. It had forced her to cast aside her Staff: the emblem of her arrogance. Perhaps inadvertantly, the horses had shown her that she could rely on her friends to save her and Jeremiah and the Land when she could not.

Hyn and the others were still trying to show her how to find her way. How to forgive her weaknesses by having faith in the strength of her companions.

Obviously, this is the direction SRD was going. He was trying to show all along that her form of caring was indeed connected to arrogance. If not at that time (Runes), then it at least sowed the seeds of an arrogance which people could already anticipate.

This conversation with Stave is indeed central to Linden's character and the themes of the LC. There's a lot more here ... for another post.

[Vraith]

That is, in contrast to "whining," an issue with some meat.
I'm trying to recall when it first popped up in a clear way...I do recall somewhere, fairly early in 2nd chron's I believe, she'd made a vow that she'd stop things like with her parents from happening, which I thought pretty damn cocky. And it was reinforced by her training/skills success.
It gets complicated/interesting though, because it is born out of desperation/impotence/failure at the beginning. Things that, in a general way are similar to TC...but specifically not.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Vraith,

Well, if we didn't have so much of her internal monolog we wouldn't think she's a whiner, would we. I still can't fathom her dismay that TC didn't want her to touch him. Get a grip.

Hmm, well, Linden is in love with Covenant, she hasn't seen her love in 10 years, she goes through all this effort, both emotional and physical, to bring him back, and then he says, 'don't touch me.'

Imagine if that were you in the real world, and apply it to anybody you've lost.

Edit - wasn't this explained already in the text?

[amanibhavam]

For me, Linden's plight/behaviour/main crime parallels the 1st Chronicles very nicely and is one of the central themes of the Last Chrons.

In the 1st trilogy TC's capital crime was his unbelief and he had to go through a long journey to arrive at the point of accepting the effect of the Land on him and the unimportance of the reality of it, which in turn led to his first victory over LF.

In the Last Chrons Linden's capital crime is her placing Jeremiah's rescue above all without caring for the consequences her actions to achieve this may have on the fate of the world. But both Linden and Jeremiah are dead in the real world as far as they and we know: for them, the rescue of the world cannot be distinguished from the rescue of Jeremiah.

[Zarathustra]

In the 1st trilogy TC's capital crime was his unbelief and he had to go through a long journey to arrive at the point of accepting the effect of the Land on him and the unimportance of the reality of it, which in turn led to his first victory over LF.

I disagree slightly with the way this sentence begins, but I think we reach agreement by the time it ends. It wasn't unbelief that was TC's "crime," it was his refusal to accept the responsibility of his freewill. He refused to make choices, to allow himself to feel and love and commit to something greater than his own mechanical survival, and then take actions based on those value judgments. Basically, he refused to allow himself to be human, in order to maintain his existence as a survival machine.

His unbelief was merely the excuse he used to allow himself to take this stance. As long as he could plausibly maintain that the Land was a dream, he didn't *have* to make any decisions or take any responsibility. The unbelief was merely a tool to achieve this passivity--or a justification of this passivity in retrospect. But the passivity was the real "crime" (if you want to describe his inauthenticity in legal terms ).

Later, he realized that the question of unbelief vs belief is not nearly as important as recognizing your freedom and the responsibility that goes along with that freedom (that responsibility is: whether you are going to be a good person or a bad person--once you start making choices, you can be judged for your choices). Even in a dream world, you're still you.

So if belief/unbelief is a question that he can later drop, then it could hardly have been a "crime" to choose unbelief in the 1st Chrons. Donaldson wisely dropped this subject because it was never really the point. In fact, he didn't even drop it as much as explicitly say: that's not the point.

And you seem to say pretty much the same thing in the last part of your sentence, so maybe I'm just nit-picking.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

The fact that killing her mother screwed her up and burdened her iwht guilt doesn't mean it was the WRONG thing to do.

Sometimes there are no good choices--that's the message of AATE.