Hiding in the lost deep?

[Simanent]

Why didn't Roger know where the Croyel was? Roger may have been unable to sense the Croyel but that wouldn't mean the Croyel couldn't have just told Roger where it would be so Roger could be on hand to protect it. Did the Croyel not trust Roger?

Anyway, how did the Harrow know where the Croyel was?

[dlbpharmd]

The croyel, through Jeremiah, had created a construct that prevented the Elohim from sensing his location. Since Roger gets his power from the amputated hand of the Elohim Kastenenssen, he could not find Jeremiah until Linden damaged the construct.

On the other hand, the Harrow's powers come from his lifetime of study. Thus, he was able to locate Jeremiah when the Elohim could not.

[Vraith]

The croyel, through Jeremiah, had created a construct that prevented the Elohim from sensing his location. Since Roger gets his power from the amputated hand of the Elohim Kastenenssen, he could not find Jeremiah until Linden damaged the construct.

On the other hand, the Harrow's powers come from his lifetime of study. Thus, he was able to locate Jeremiah when the Elohim could not.

yea...and Harrow, not just ANY study, but specific study of Lore/beings like the Viles/Demondim.

[High Lord Tolkien]

The croyel, through Jeremiah, had created a construct that prevented the Elohim from sensing his location. Since Roger gets his power from the amputated hand of the Elohim Kastenenssen, he could not find Jeremiah until Linden damaged the construct.

On the other hand, the Harrow's powers come from his lifetime of study. Thus, he was able to locate Jeremiah when the Elohim could not.

Oh, I thought it was to keep Esmer and the Elohim away. But that Roger knew already. Did the croyal summon Roger for help? Wasn't it Esmer that appeared suddenly when Linden broke the construct?
I forget.

[aliantha]

Both Esmer and Roger showed up when Linden broke the construct. Roger was first, tho, I think, because he and Covenant went at it ("SUCK-er!" ) before Esmer showed up.

[Simanent]

The point I was making was, why was the Croyel hiding from Roger? Couldn't the Croyel have just TOLD Roger where it was, so that even though Roger could not sense the Croyel he would know where to wait for Linden? Did the Croyel not trust Roger?

[Hiro]

Sorry, I don't understand. Perhaps I missed something. I was never under the impression that Roger didn't know where the Croyel was. On the contrary, the fact that he appeared so suddenly to kill the Harrow would point out the connection between them. But then again, did I miss something?

[Simanent]

I could be wrong, but Roger only appeared when Linden broke the structure that hid it from the Elohim, as if until then Roger did not know where the Croyel was. I took it that Roger can teleport around like an Elohim, if not it was weird how he got on the scene so fast, although he had to escape Linden on a cavewight. It was strange how quickly Roger and his cavewights got to the lower land from Gravin Threndor after the escape from the deep so it is a bit mysterious how Roger travels.

[Hiro]

I could be wrong, but Roger only appeared when Linden broke the structure that hid it from the Elohim, as if until then Roger did not know where the Croyel was. I took it that Roger can teleport around like an Elohim, if not it was weird how he got on the scene so fast, although he had to escape Linden on a cavewight. It was strange how quickly Roger and his cavewights got to the lower land from Gravin Threndor after the escape from the deep so it is a bit mysterious how Roger travels.

Inside the Lost Deep, could Roger not have been waiting in ambush to appear at just the right moment for him to attack?

Regarding Roger's travel habits, what is strange is the discrepancy between his sudden arrival (due to his glamor?) and his escaping twice Cavewight-riding.

[Simanent]

Roger could have been waiting in the deep, but the Harrow seemed pretty sure that he wasn't. If Roger had got in, wouldn't the way in have been opened already, or can elohim bypass such wards?

Roger's movements are inconsistent. When he appears with cavewights the second time Linden thinks it's strange how quickly he brought an army of cavewights with him without Jeremiah's assistance.

[Hiro]

Roger could have been waiting in the deep, but the Harrow seemed pretty sure that he wasn't. If Roger had got in, wouldn't the way in have been opened already, or can elohim bypass such wards?

Roger's movements are inconsistent. When he appears with cavewights the second time Linden thinks it's strange how quickly he brought an army of cavewights with him without Jeremiah's assistance.

The Harrow has proven not to be such a great judge of events to come. Both upon entering the Lost Deep and in his sudden demise at Roger's hands. That does not suggest that the Harrow's intimations were in any way correct.

I've also never held Jeremiah responsible for Roger's military maneuvers.

[Simanent]

So why do you think he needs to escape on cavewights' backs? Is he too drained of power to transport himself?

[Hiro]

So why do you think he needs to escape on cavewights' backs? Is he too drained of power to transport himself?

It's a good question. Amongst the things that troubled me in AATE, it's amongst the minor ones. In another post I have already mentioned my dislike of Roger using the exact device for appearing AND LEAVING twice, once in FR, once in AATE.

Conjecture: Roger cannot use his teleportation-magic whilst under attack (by Linden).

[Barnetto]

Why didn't Roger know where the Croyel was? Roger may have been unable to sense the Croyel but that wouldn't mean the Croyel couldn't have just told Roger where it would be so Roger could be on hand to protect it. Did the Croyel not trust Roger?

Roger did know where the Croyel was. How do you think he was able to appear so quickly once Linden broke the construct? However, he was prevented from entering the chamber by the construct that was also shielding the Croyel from other Elohim - Roger is now part Elohim having kastenessen's hand.

I think that Roger's "glamour" is a by-product of him being part Elohim now - rather than something the Croyel did for him. Afterall, in FR he managed to sneak up on the Woodhelven scene with his army of cavewights without the Croyel. Whether this "glamour" is also related to an ability to transport himself (and possibly others?) in Elohim fashion, I'm not sure. But, as has been pointed out, it is difficult to see how Roger and the Cavewights would have reached from Mount Thunder to the battle of the Cairn so quickly otherwise?

By the way, does anyone else think that Linden's breaking of the construct was an incredible act of desperation? She had no idea what it would achieve! The possible consequences of Roger and Esmer turning up surely outweighed the fact that the Harrow might gain access to her son's powers? Even if other Elohim had turned up first, given what they think of Jeremiah, they would surely have simply killed the Croyel leading to the immediate death of Jeremiah!

[Simanent]

I thought the structure only prevented elohim finding the croyel and it was the ward left by the viles that stopped them entering. That doesn't make a lot of sense now I say it.

When Roger appeared with a cavewight army in FR is it clear that he transported them there? The army could have walked from Gravin Threndor but have been concealed by the glamor- unlike when they arrived at the cairn.

Breaking the structure was a crazy move, but Linden only did it because she was so put off by Roger not being able to appear.

[Vraith]

I thought the structure only prevented elohim finding the croyel and it was the ward left by the viles that stopped them entering. That doesn't make a lot of sense now I say it.

Why do you say it makes no sense? I think you are correct in thinking that if, for instance, Croyemiah took apart his construct, Roger and the Elohim, maybe others might have then known/been able to discover where he was, but not have been able to get there without someone opening the Vile-gate. In fact, Croyemiah itself might have been vulnerable to whatever trap was in the gate, if it weren't for the concealing nature of the construct...but that's speculation.

[Simanent]

It just seems like the elohim should have known how to bypass the viles' ward. Don't know why.

[Barnetto]

It just seems like the elohim should have known how to bypass the viles' ward. Don't know why.

If they couldn't, it begs the question how Croyemiah (if Vraith hasn't copyrighted that term?) managed to get into the Lost Deep? If they got there (using Croyelish powers?), why not the Elohim? I don't think it is explained in the text, but as I read it I assumed that the Elohim could have transported directly into the Lost Deep (despite the Hazardgate), but they were excluded from the area where Croyemiah was by the construct.

[Simanent]

Croyemiah could go anywhere by using Jeremiah's talent for making doors. This seems to be something that surpasses elohims' or any other's abilities. I now suppose that vile lore might have been up to blocking elohim. I doubted it initially because triggering the vile ward's alarm would shatter the bridge over the deep and that didn't seem like anything elohim would be put off by, but that doesn't mean the ward wouldn't also have properties that elohim could not master.

[Barnetto]

True.

TBH it felt a bit odd when reading that section that the Harrow/Ardent could transport the company to Hazerdgate but not directly into the Lost Deep. I guess that you would have to conclude that the protection wrought by the Viles encompassed the whole of the Lost Deep and not just the Hazard and the Doorway? But that just feels a bit contrived (to me at least).

(Can't quite recall now, but what was the consequence of breaching the Gate? The Hazard Bridge would break and fall blocking off egress, but was there more? Waking the She Bane? If it was only breaking the Bridge, then they shouldn't have been too much of an issue for beings with transportation powers?)