What is TC becoming?

[SkurjMaster]

If memory serves me correctly, at some point in AATE, TC and LA touch their chests together (during an embrace when he revives her in the water?) and a spark of white gold is created. After this TC shuns her touch. He says he is afraid of what he is becoming or will have to become, but he doesn't have all of the pieces mentally. Is he afraid he is becoming more like Foul? Or merging with Foul? Or afraid he will have to take up the white gold again and kick universe-scalding amounts of ass?

[Dawngreeter]

Yeah I'm not quite sure either. But I'm feeling more and more sure that he is on the brink of never needing white gold because "you are the white gold". Timewarden graduating to Universewarden.

[The Somberlain]

At that point he still had his fractured memory, right? Perhaps he was mostly afraid of having that kind of power without being in control of himself.
Or that he didn't want to let himself become too human while he knew he would still quite possibly have to kill Joan.

[lurch]

Yea!..a little Love there, rekindled the ole fire so to speak,,and I agree, TC had some unpleasant business yet to take care of. A sense of everything in its Time and Place coming across. Reinforced again with Joans caesures weakening , as TC closes in on her,,thus giving Linden an obtuse chance to save her son from Infelice. Hows that for LOVE?!

[earthbrah]

lurch wrote:

Hows that for LOVE?!

Well, it sure don't fit with the traditional notion of love! But then again, redefinition through restructuring seems apt here, not only for love, but also for what TC has become or is becoming.

[earthbrah]

Ok, sorry for the double post here, but I've had some other thoughts.

Covenant’s march through the caesure to get to Joan has echoes of his first intuitive path to the heart of a dilemma. His unbelief supports him through the backward/forward chaos of time just as it supported him through the eye of the paradox. I’m not launching into a deep analysis here, but just want to draw a few connections…

Perspectives, polar opposites, dire acts, destruction and healing, life and death…these culminating moments have it all! And in both it’s essentially TC (with some help, of course) against despite: in TPTP, despite is the Despiser himself, and the Illearth Stone; in AATE, despite is in the form of Joan’s wild gold madness being manipulated and made corruptive by turiya Herem’s malice as Foul’s servant.

In TPTP, Covenant is fed false images of health and disease by Foul to try to beat him, get him to “break down” and despair; in AATE, Covenant is tripped into his past memories as part of the Arch by turiya to keep his hold on the present elusive and loose. Foul wants his subservience and the ring; turiya wants to protect Joan and her ring from him (if not outright kill him). The use of the ring in both instances, though causing great physical damage, also brought about a victory for hope and life. And yet death resulted in both situations: Foamfollower’s, Joan’s.

In TPTP, Covenant didn’t kill Foul because he knew that despite cannot be killed. Instead, he called upon the dead Lords and Foamfollower to laugh at the joy of his victory, though temporary it would ultimately be. He called upon them to heal themselves…and they complied. In AATE, Covenant used the obviously insequential memories of his past as part of the Arch that seemed to have no clear relation to the present as some means to not only re-anchor himself to his present, but also to heal the fragments of his mind. Dare I say that his unbelief in both instances served to simultaneously hold in his mind and awareness (to affirm?) seeming opposites (good by evil means!), and with this “perspective” became enabled to transcend himself and the dilemma.

He is the ur-Lord. He loves the Land. Both choices—defeating yet not killing Lord Foul and destroying the Illearth Stone, and killing Joan—are expressions of his love, of life and the Land. What is he becoming? I don't think even he knows that yet.

[lurch]

I'm not sure " what TC is becoming"..is a legit question. TC was Infinite..heck, even the past tense " was" doesn't quite get it right. Anyway,,how can you apply the question to some body who has known infinity? You can say,,but in the context of what TC is now. But that is kinda the answer in the question. TC can only return to,,relate to, be influenced by ( heavily) the Infinite that he has been. Its kinda funny..TC going away for " his Purpose" while Linden sees his separation on her small " pityful me" scale..yet TC's separation eventually is of large influence in Jeremiahs " liberation" from the graveyard. Even Linden eventually picks up on it with her wishing TC would hurry up and end Joans ability to create caesures.

Yes..the line of choices made and the consequences of those choices , foreseen and unforeseen,,blurs distinctions made for comfort. But I think the author is terribly good at it in AATE, giving us a distinctly different feel and is not all that comforting. Its rather " somewhere else" and yes,,like the Majestic Castles,,Spoiled Plains , Shattered Hills,,and the caldera of the Quellvisk bones..totally different places ,,seems to me ,where TC will take Love , for Lindens benefit. Again..the author has the Ranyhyn in the center. Mysteriously,,they knew it was time to giddy up..thus aligning the events in the caldera with events of Joans end. Infelice underestimated the Ranyhyn. I'm fascinated with the authors possible connecting them, their Mystery..to Love.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Covenant used the obviously insequential memories of his past as part of the Arch that seemed to have no clear relation to the present as some means to not only re-anchor himself to his present, but also to heal the fragments of his mind. Dare I say that his unbelief in both instances served to simultaneously hold in his mind and awareness (to affirm?) seeming opposites (good by evil means!), and with this “perspective” became enabled to transcend himself and the dilemma.

Interesting word there.
[/u]

[HighLordKevin]

I think TC is becoming the Creator. Can't put my finger on why, I just get that feeling.

[Vraith]

I think TC is becoming the Creator. Can't put my finger on why, I just get that feeling.

One of my grand speculative theories includes a version of this...and not just for TC, in some variations.
He will "fix" the mistake of the other creator by being part of/dissolved in the creation during the making. In doing so, though, he will lose most or all of his individual identity.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I've never seen this issue of their chests touching in terms of Covenant becoming something. Perhaps by analogy he is moving from Untouchable leper, the lowest rung in India's caste system, to Untouchable Brahmin, the highest rung. But wasn't he already there? Covenant has to become something in order to accomplish his goal, and the things he has to do will also change him.

My interpretation of the event is that Covenant cannot afford to feel anything at this point because the Land's need is so severe. So he can't afford to be distracted by matters of love. I'm certain this arc will take us somewhere, and the flash of wild magic may be a clue to that ultimate end.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I've never seen this issue of their chests touching in terms of Covenant becoming something. Perhaps by analogy he is moving from Untouchable leper, the lowest rung in India's caste system, to Untouchable Brahmin, the highest rung. But wasn't he already there? Covenant has to become something in order to accomplish his goal, and the things he has to do will also change him.

My interpretation of the event is that Covenant cannot afford to feel anything at this point because the Land's need is so severe. So he can't afford to be distracted by matters of love. I'm certain this arc will take us somewhere, and the flash of wild magic may be a clue to that ultimate end.

I don't know how you could come to this conclusion. Covenant is brimming over with feelings all along AATE, not lacking in them! The reason he doesn't become Biblical with Linden is because of his feelings of guilt, and not on the world-shaking level but on the personal one. Guilt for his hand in what happens to his daughter and (ex)-wife and his responsibility for it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I've never seen this issue of their chests touching in terms of Covenant becoming something. Perhaps by analogy he is moving from Untouchable leper, the lowest rung in India's caste system, to Untouchable Brahmin, the highest rung. But wasn't he already there? Covenant has to become something in order to accomplish his goal, and the things he has to do will also change him.

My interpretation of the event is that Covenant cannot afford to feel anything at this point because the Land's need is so severe. So he can't afford to be distracted by matters of love. I'm certain this arc will take us somewhere, and the flash of wild magic may be a clue to that ultimate end.

I don't know how you could come to this conclusion. Covenant is brimming over with feelings all along AATE, not lacking in them! The reason he doesn't become Biblical with Linden is because of his feelings of guilt, and not on the world-shaking level but on the personal one. Guilt for his hand in what happens to his daughter and (ex)-wife and his responsibility for it.

I did mention love specifically. And guilt has always been a great motivator in the Chrons.

[ninjaboy]

I was just in the thread about the Feroce, and seem to have stumbled upon a question that might be relevant here..

It's about the Rahnyhn. Why were they/are they terrified of him? They are 'adept at time' - do you think that perhaps they were never worried of TC destroying the AoT with wild magic or any of that, knowing all along it would be Linden who rouses the Worm, and thus threatens the AoT?
The Rahnyhn never seemed terrified of Linden though, despite knowing what she would do..
Thus I wonder if the terror the Rahnyhn feel/felt was all along related to what's hapenning now, if they were terrified of him then for what he is becoming now?

[shadowbinding shoe]

I was just in the thread about the Feroce, and seem to have stumbled upon a question that might be relevant here..

It's about the Rahnyhn. Why were they/are they terrified of him? They are 'adept at time' - do you think that perhaps they were never worried of TC destroying the AoT with wild magic or any of that, knowing all along it would be Linden who rouses the Worm, and thus threatens the AoT?
The Rahnyhn never seemed terrified of Linden though, despite knowing what she would do..
Thus I wonder if the terror the Rahnyhn feel/felt was all along related to what's hapenning now, if they were terrified of him then for what he is becoming now?

I think this is the wrong angle to look at it. They're not terrified (too strong a word for their attitude. I thought fearful and in awe would be more in place) of Covenant and not of Linden because of the things they know they'll do but rather because of the different attitudes the two have for them and the Land in general.

Linden's attitude toward them and the Land is one of uncomplicated Love but Covenant's attitude is more complicated. He loves yet disbelieves, he gives yet has a very egocentric point of view. Linden tries to heal the wounded while Covenant tries to destroy the illness and redeem the lost.

The horses are naturally drawn to Linden's attitudes while feeling uncertain about Covenant's. It's not clear that Linden's attitudes make her a better leader and messiah than Covenant but than again the Ranyhym are not cold calculators either.

We know how much affection they showed to Elena despite all they knew about the future. (and the books are pretty clear that the future is not set in stone until it occurs.)

[jonnyredleader]

i think hes becoming foul. or assimilating him. that seems a bit simple but isnt that the obvious choice after defeating and surrendering to him? Elena assimilated by SWMNBN? How will covenant save his daughter? he did say dont put it past him? themes run through these books. i love it that SRD can really make these good puzzles

[earthbrah]

Vraith wrote:

He will "fix" the mistake of the other creator by being part of/dissolved in the creation during the making. In doing so, though, he will lose most or all of his individual identity.

I like this idea insofar as it rhymes with my thinking about the whole of creation being restructured or remade instead of being "fixed" and healed. But I believe whatever lasting solutions for the Land, whatever TC may or may not be becoming, Linden is an inherent part of it; TC can't do whatever it is that needs to be done without her integral participation. If this idea of TC melding into a new creation is right, it will make the creation of the Staff by Linden look paltry in comparison.

And what of Foul? If Covenant can subsume his being into a new creation, then he'll also need to assimilate Foul into himself as a part of the process...yes?

[Vraith]

Vraith wrote:

He will "fix" the mistake of the other creator by being part of/dissolved in the creation during the making. In doing so, though, he will lose most or all of his individual identity.

I like this idea insofar as it rhymes with my thinking about the whole of creation being restructured or remade instead of being "fixed" and healed. But I believe whatever lasting solutions for the Land, whatever TC may or may not be becoming, Linden is an inherent part of it; TC can't do whatever it is that needs to be done without her integral participation. If this idea of TC melding into a new creation is right, it will make the creation of the Staff by Linden look paltry in comparison.

And what of Foul? If Covenant can subsume his being into a new creation, then he'll also need to assimilate Foul into himself as a part of the process...yes?

Oh, yes, Linden will be essential...Jeremiah, too. My current thinking on LF is that, because he is the cause of the entire problem...he does not belong in the creation, he will be sifted out/separated from the new creation...but dissolution/melding/subsuming might be possible...

[bossk]

I think TC is becoming the Creator. Can't put my finger on why, I just get that feeling.

One of my grand speculative theories includes a version of this...and not just for TC, in some variations.
He will "fix" the mistake of the other creator by being part of/dissolved in the creation during the making. In doing so, though, he will lose most or all of his individual identity.

Yeah, this makes sense. The Creator has been absent this whole time. We need a new one. Where are the campaign posters?

If TC is going to become the Creator, I'd say Linden has to do something similar (as does Jeremiah?) because they are supposedly dead as proverbial doornails back in our time as well.

[Cambo]

I think Jeremiah a more likely neo-Creator than Covenant. But I agree they are all likely to go through some transcendent transformation, similar to Hile Troy and Covenant. I have a feeling Linden's will have some bearing on SWMNBN; the whole despairing lover thing seems to fir Linden like a glove. As for Covenant, a final reckoning with the Despiser is in order, methinks.