A Question about Lord Foul's Abilities

[dmMike7]

I'm not sure if this really belongs in this part of the forum, but I figured any spoilers could go here if necessary.

So Lord Foul, like the Creator, finds ways to enter the "real" world and corrupt and manipulate it. He (through Drool Rockworm) was able to summon Covenant to the Land in the first place. Then he was able to corrupt the Community of Retribution and basically make it worship him. Then through it he was able to corrupt Joan and make her go crazy and then bend Roger to his will. Foul was also present in the fire as those yellow eyes Linden sees and probably caused the lightening that killed Joan and summoned her and the others to the Land. My point is, several time Lord Foul has directly manipulated the "real" world.

So then I thought about this. Infelice claims the the shadow upon the hearts of the Elohim is actually caused by the "beings from beyond time" (i may be paraphrasing). Those beings being TC, Linden, Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, ect. All these beings are from beyond the arch of time. Thats why the Creator can talk to them and interfere as he does.

But here where my question really is. Lord Foul also interferes, but these people and the "real" world is beyond the Arch of Time. Foul is trapped inside the Arch. So how can he reach people in the "real" world?

[The Somberlain]

Well the Lords (and Triock, and possibly Atiaran) were able to do some summoning as well, so I don't think summoning Covenant counts as influencing the real world.

The community of retribution was interesting, but even then, it seemed more like Foul was barely there - his image was in the fire, but not any physical presence like the Creator, and all the action was done by his agents in the real world: the community, Roger, etc.

[SkurjMaster]

I think LF can affect, either directly or indirectly through others, people in the real world, but only on a metaphysical or spiritual level. He can't tangibly affect anything in the real world because he is trapped in the AoT. The Creator can appear to TC and LA because he is outside, but he is limited be the Necessity of Freedom, which also binds Foul.

Most, if not all, of Foul's abilities are in lore, with a great deal devoted to influencing others to do his will, breaking the AoT. The failures noted in AATE seem somewhat beneath LF as presented even in the First Chronicles. Had he simply matured by then. Why didn't he try for white gold before? Was that what he was doing when he got on the Council of Lords during Kevin's time? Did he know that he needed the Staff of Law then to summon white gold, or did he think that the RoD would break the Arch?

Kind of makes your wonder about Foul altogether. Given he existed along with the Creator before the Arch existed, why does he seem to be a lesser being than the Creator? Does his imprisonment alter his abilities? If he was released, would he be more powerful?

[High Lord Tolkien]

There's a few threads on this subject already.
I think someone asked SRD about it and his response was that Foul was able to influence our "real" world because of the weakening of the Arch or something.
I myself didn't like that idea.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Perhaps he never made a try for the white gold before because it never existed before Thomas Covenant had leprosy.
Sure, there's tons of the stuff in the "real world."
But remember also, that Covenant IS the white wild magic gold.
White gold, if you buy Kaseryn's argument, is great because it is impure. Covenant is sure impure. I think it isn't the leprosy, per se, but what catching it did to his soul. Lot of self-loathing, resentment, anger, etc.
And, you may ask, why then is Joan able to do what she did?
Well, in a wedding, two become one. It wasn't a great marriage, but on one level, Joan and Covenant are one being. Or were.
It's late.

[Endymion9]

So then I thought about this. Infelice claims the the shadow upon the hearts of the Elohim is actually caused by the "beings from beyond time" (i may be paraphrasing). Those beings being TC, Linden, Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, ect. All these beings are from beyond the arch of time. Thats why the Creator can talk to them and interfere as he does.

Wasn't there a statement or implication in The One Tree that LF was actually a shadow of Chant? I know we've learned since that the elohim are not totally reliable in what they claim, but I thought that claim was made.

Also another question concerning LR and the elohim. The elohim spend a lot of energy opposing TC, Linden, etc. from using wild magic and waking the worm. However, they seem uninterested in opposing LF who if they were able to disrupt his plans there would be no threats to the arch and to waking the worm. Wonder why they don't try to activitely oppose LF the way they do TC.

[Cambo]

So then I thought about this. Infelice claims the the shadow upon the hearts of the Elohim is actually caused by the "beings from beyond time" (i may be paraphrasing). Those beings being TC, Linden, Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, ect. All these beings are from beyond the arch of time. Thats why the Creator can talk to them and interfere as he does.

Wasn't there a statement or implication in The One Tree that LF was actually a shadow of Chant? I know we've learned since that the elohim are not totally reliable in what they claim, but I thought that claim was made.

Also another question concerning LR and the elohim. The elohim spend a lot of energy opposing TC, Linden, etc. from using wild magic and waking the worm. However, they seem uninterested in opposing LF who if they were able to disrupt his plans there would be no threats to the arch and to waking the worm. Wonder why they don't try to activitely oppose LF the way they do TC.

I don't remember that implication about Foul and Chant. Linden at one point claims that Foul got there before them, implying to me that Foul had influenced or tainted the Elohim previously. Given what we've learned in AATE, it would seem Linden was mistaken. Of course, I might be missing something and we might have interpreted differently. The whole Elemesdene sequence is very abstract. But if we're taking the mythology as reliable (possibly a mistake), Lord Foul was around long before the Earth, and therefore Chant.

As to why the Elohim don't oppose Foul directly, I guess their logic is something like this. Lord Foul seems to need one of the "beyond time" people to wake the Worm, TC being the most volatile of these. But the extra-timers don't need Foul to wake the Worm, they can do it all by themselves, on purpose or simply by screwing up. TC seems to be an interesting exception though. His wild magic wasn't anywhere near as strong before Foul gave him the venom. Could TC have roused the Worm, say, in the First Chronicles, with his limited access to wild magic?

[Horrim Carabal]

Also, the Elohim are ineffectual against Foul. As far as I know, all Earthpowerful beings are ineffectual against Foul.

This includes the Staff of Law, the Worm itself, the Elohim, the Old Lords, and even the Power of Command. None of it works on LF.

[Endymion9]

Good points. Thanks,

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Also, the Elohim are ineffectual against Foul. As far as I know, all Earthpowerful beings are ineffectual against Foul.

This includes the Staff of Law, the Worm itself, the Elohim, the Old Lords, and even the Power of Command. None of it works on LF.

LF works on LF.