The bone construct

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Heh...as you well know, Worm, it took longer to explain because I was pulling things from the text to support what I said. The short version is: Of course Linden knows the car is important, so Linden acts that way through the only thing she has that connects to him.
And I don't think you are correct about Roger/FR question either. She knew, and we knew that she knew, that something was wrong with Jerry/Fake TC. She simply had no idea what was wrong, so asked the question that would solve it: to be shown the truth. That was, in that situation, the ONLY question that would serve her particular need.

Honestly, in the case of Linden/car/Jerry/structure/Stave/Infelice at that precise moment, with all the character/emotive backstory that has happened, ANY action Linden took other than the one she did would have been more baseless/illogical/convoluted/unexplainable than the one she did.

I agree that Linden had nagging suspicions concerning Roger/TC's story. His behavior was also off. (Donaldson, a master story-teller, threw us some major clues that he knew nobody would catch on to because he knows the readers craved Covenant's return.)

However, what's bothering me is that Linden didn't express her Command as "tell me the truth." The results, where Roger is simply standing there telling the truth like a witness in a court case, obviously would not have been as dramatic for the reader.

And [Fuzzy] the car itself didn't have any magical powers. Just a necessary shape/composition. That's why Croyel crushed it and Esmer fixed it. And Jerry brought it. Jerry has the powers. It was HIS plans/necessities that made it available [oh, and LF's.] And TC didn't tell Linden what you say: what he told her, with more than one variation, is ways she could look at it that might help her stay sane/survive. This happens all the time in RL too...therapists tell depressed people [among other strategies] too look "outside," change their viewpoint. This does not necessarily "cure" them of depression. It just gives them a position to live from, rather than shooting themselves in the head.

If the croyel knew what the car was for, then Roger should have vaporized it with his Kasty hand.

[Vraith]

If the croyel knew what the car was for, then Roger should have vaporized it with his Kasty hand.

That's probably so. I don't think the croyel knew what it was for...I think it just knew it was important to Jerry, and crushed it cuz it is a nasty spiteful blood-sucking beastie.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

If the croyel knew what the car was for, then Roger should have vaporized it with his Kasty hand.

That's probably so. I don't think the croyel knew what it was for...I think it just knew it was important to Jerry, and crushed it cuz it is a nasty spiteful blood-sucking beastie.

The race-car, besides symbolizing Linden's hopes (which were not crushed after all), is a literary device enabling renewal, the theme of AATE.

[Raman Bannor]

This has been a great discussion, glad to hear all the viewpoints. I agree that we all knew the car had significance and even possibly some power in the right hands.
All I am saying is that, like someone else said, while we have access to her thoughts she gives no indication that she knows what she is doing while tossing the car to her son at the possible moment of his death, AND it turns out to be crucial to the bone construct and the future of the entire story/dream/planet!!
As a literary device this isn't working. Then again "do something unexpected" is very forgiving to a narrative.

- RB

[Vraith]

Bah.
The only way to think she WOULDN't have thought of the car when he put out his hand to her is to ignore every instant of their entire relationship, and every mention of the car, from the beginning.
To not LIKE the way it develops...well, that's anyones prerogative.
To say it doesn't make sense is demonstrably false.

Edited to add: it is completely unnecessary for Linden to know the outcome/purpose of getting the car to him, in case I've been misreading and that's the supposed problem. She has only one choice here: ignore him, and his outstretched hand [and everything he's done so far], or give him what he wants. She has in her possession exactly, and only, one thing that he has ever shown ANY interest in.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Bah.
The only way to think she WOULDN't have thought of the car when he put out his hand to her is to ignore every instant of their entire relationship, and every mention of the car, from the beginning.
To not LIKE the way it develops...well, that's anyones prerogative.
To say it doesn't make sense is demonstrably false.

I think the point is that there is no development of suspicion about the car's purpose.

[Vraith]

Did you see the edit part, Worm?

This is getting a bit silly. I keep justifying text/character reasons why there's nothing else she could have done that made any sense whatsoever in any world, and people keep saying "she didn't know what would happen." The answer to that is simply of course she didn't, but give me one, just one, good text-based reason why she would have done anything else. It's the only time he's ever asked for anything FROM her [which is exactly what she's been living for], and she only has one thing he could possibly WANT from her.
I mean...throw out all the attachment/character stuff [which is there in abundance]
You are walking along, you see a guy building something. He holds out his hand to you. You have a stick, some cabbage, a coupon for a free 6" tuna melt, and a hammer...what the hell do you give him?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Did you see the edit part, Worm?

This is getting a bit silly. I keep justifying text/character reasons why there's nothing else she could have done that made any sense whatsoever in any world, and people keep saying "she didn't know what would happen." The answer to that is simply of course she didn't, but give me one, just one, good text-based reason why she would have done anything else. It's the only time he's ever asked for anything FROM her [which is exactly what she's been living for], and she only has one thing he could possibly WANT from her.
I mean...throw out all the attachment/character stuff [which is there in abundance]
You are walking along, you see a guy building something. He holds out his hand to you. You have a stick, some cabbage, a coupon for a free 6" tuna melt, and a hammer...what the hell do you give him?

I see the bold face edits, but what you're saying right now is actually more helpful. Because when you originally mentioned Jer's outstretched hand my mind immediately went to FR. I don't see where he stretched out his hand in AATE. But I do see at least one good text-based reason: Linden thinking that Esmer must have healed the toy for a reason; and another reason, she had no other recourse since direct use of her magic tools were no match for the Elohim.

[Raman Bannor]

Good find with the OSH Vraith.
The out stretched hand was not the point of the scene, the more immediate need was saving the kid from the Elohim. Donaldson says the outstretched arm was asking for approval, and specifically says not an indication that he was asking for any item - like the car. So why does he say this, and why does he gives us Linden's thoughts about saving J?
So her kid's about to get squashed, with his hand extended. And instead of trying to save him, with no forethought she chucks him the car, and it turns out to be the right thing to do ...

[Vraith]

/sigh.
The hand IS in fact, the ENTIRE point of the scene [or at least the keystone of it]
He put out his hand, seeking confirmation...
in the next sentence the key is no "OTHER" sign he wanted anything. [how many 'other' signs do you need when, in 10 years this is the first and only direct sign?]
further in same: she CAN't use staff, or ring without drawing Infelice's attention back to her and keeping her from doing anything at all.
she CAN't just run up and bitch-slap her.
and there is thought...most telling the very specific, exact, written right in the words of the book, thought, the very LAST thought she has, that Esmer, who must both betray AND aid, had, after a huge betrayal, healed the car, and for a reason.

This particular argument is just dead, text/foreshadowing/character/relationshiop is evidently not evidence.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

/sigh.
The hand IS in fact, the ENTIRE point of the scene [or at least the keystone of it]
He put out his hand, seeking confirmation...
in the next sentence the key is no "OTHER" sign he wanted anything. [how many 'other' signs do you need when, in 10 years this is the first and only direct sign?]
further in same: she CAN't use staff, or ring without drawing Infelice's attention back to her and keeping her from doing anything at all.
she CAN't just run up and bitch-slap her.
and there is thought...most telling the very specific, exact, written right in the words of the book, thought, the very LAST thought she has, that Esmer, who must both betray AND aid, had, after a huge betrayal, healed the car, and for a reason.

This particular argument is just dead, text/foreshadowing/character/relationshiop is evidently not evidence.

It says that Jer gave no other indication that he wanted anything, only the outstretched hand. So the only clues available to her were the fact that Esmer healed the car for some reason, and that she had no recourse to weapons of power.

[lurch]

/sigh.
The hand IS in fact, the ENTIRE point of the scene [or at least the keystone of it]
He put out his hand, seeking confirmation...
in the next sentence the key is no "OTHER" sign he wanted anything. [how many 'other' signs do you need when, in 10 years this is the first and only direct sign?]
further in same: she CAN't use staff, or ring without drawing Infelice's attention back to her and keeping her from doing anything at all.
she CAN't just run up and bitch-slap her.
and there is thought...most telling the very specific, exact, written right in the words of the book, thought, the very LAST thought she has, that Esmer, who must both betray AND aid, had, after a huge betrayal, healed the car, and for a reason.

This particular argument is just dead, text/foreshadowing/character/relationshiop is evidently not evidence.

Fascinating how a Poll thread got turned intoa hand dissection..

In any case..what did Linden have..that Jerry indicated a want for? I agree, when it comes down to it..intuitively, there was nothing else to fill the indication of want.

The race car ties the beginnings..back to Runes,,real world,all the way to the current situation. There is a wonderful traverse of its Mystery. And its just a little toy car. Even a little toy car can be of great import. Fantastic! The scene,,was in a way a variation of Linden picking the lock to the Viles'es Majestic Castles..one little thread that all else was connected to..one little toy car..that all else was connected to..Linden is coming along nicely.

[Raman Bannor]

So Vraith, I started this not to prove the merits of the scene in question or to point out mistakes Donaldson made, I just wanted to express my frustration at some of the techniques that Donaldson uses.
He writes pages and pages of Linden's thoughts over and over again. The She Who Must Not Be Named chase scene featuring the inside of Linden's head was torture.
Then pages and pages where Donaldson describes in intricate detail every freakin rock that a wonder horse steps over, then we come to the climax of one of the main threads of the book and he has Linden do something for all she knows is giving her kid something to hold on to while he gets creamed by the Elohim and it turns out to be the best thing she could have done in the situation.
So its noted you don't agree, and that Donaldson handled this properly, and that I just can't follow what should be obvious.
There are many other things that frustrate me about Donaldson since the first series very few that delight me.
Is there anything about this style of writing that frustrates you? Since you are so thoughtful I really would like know, so please give me an answer if you would.
Otherwise I am willing to end this, or we can take it somewhere else as someone pointed out this is a polling thread after all.

[Vraith]

Heh...the thread did go elsewhere from its initial intention. But this:

Is there anything about this style of writing that frustrates you? Since you are so thoughtful I really would like know, so please give me an answer if you would.

No one ever even asked me before, I don't think. To avoid even further deviation, I'll keep it short.
There are things here and there that frustrate me a bit. One example...someone was talking about a thing with giants and 3's and repetition. At the time I defended it, thinking there was background for it [which there was] AND it was going somewhere...which, as it turns out, it hasn't, and I don't think it can/will.
Another, I think sometimes the actual rhythm/structures of sentences/grammar enters a....droning...which is cool for meditation, but not for dynamics.
BUT: these are trifles/quibbles to me because I don't think there are even a handful of authors out there that manage complex issues AND complex worlds AND complex characters all at the same time and still maintain the totality/holistic integrity of the story as SRD does.

[lurch]

Its interesting how some readers/posters have made issue with the pace, the" droning", the slow interior laments of Linden, the inaction, etc etc of AATE. I do not argue of " its" existence. Thus Purpose would seem the avenue to explore.

It seems to me that the author is successful in getting the reader to feel Linden's " weight", the weight on her mind, all the encumbrances that indeed weigh down the ability to skip along merrily. Its not a " positive" feel. Kinda like walking in molasses on a cold January day. Yet, that is only what Linden is going thru. When she begins to Trust members of the team, then events again move along. So..imho..its Lindens interior mental machinations, her habitual way of thinking, that is being exposed for us to explore. In doing so, we see her" leprosy", that which handicaps her. Yes, its distasteful , and in a way, horrifying. How many times were we reminded of TC's leprosy in the first Chrons?

I agree that the " pace" issue exists. Yet in it I find a response, a feel, that is negative , unpleasant, and that is as the author wishes. Linden's way of thinking and perceiving is regrettable, unfortunate, and even if the reader allows it , nauseating. Not only are we supposed to be frustrated by Linden, but also to see what it is that makes us feel that way. If we go there,,then the walk in molasses on a cold January day is a whole lot less of a struggle and more of a mental exercise. And thats good...imho.

[earthbrah]

lurch wrote:

Not only are we supposed to be frustrated by Linden, but also to see what it is that makes us feel that way.