Why is Findail such a jerk?

onions · Post by **onions** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:00 pm

I feel a bit daft about missing the point, but --

What exactly is Findails problem?
Why did he panic at being welded into the new staff with Vain?
He seemed to feel that this was a punishment for not managing to wrest the ring for himself or make Linden take it.
But becoming part of the staff should be an honour, not a punishment?

Also, have the Elohim simply become corrupted and foolish or is there a deeper (positive) purpose to their machinations?

What do you think?
(if this has been answered before, sorry. Please just direct me to the right thread)

onions

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:14 pm

heh .. 'daft'??? ... mmm .. another Brit?

I think Findail did not want to loose his freedom .. er go .. Elena's sculpture .. Bannor/TC .. alloy if you will ..

power and discipline! I forget the actual description

.. but I believe this is the explanation given for Findail's reluctance to be confined within Vain's structure .. Vain represented teh structure .. the bonds if you like .. and Findail the power .. earthpower ..

Findail had no desire to surrender his 'deemed Elohim given right' to freedom .. to serve the Land .. the way the Land required serving ..

Vain was created to surrender himself to this end .. it was his purpose .. his design .. he knew it .. Vain simply followed his design code .. and fulfilled his destiny ..

It was much harder for Findail .. who for centuries had known freedom .. absolute autonomy .. and did not want to give it up .. to be confined eternally .. or for a time unstated .. within the staff!

But ultimately he accepted his role .. of his own free-will .. he saw the need eventually .. and combined with Vain .. to become the new staff.

I'll think a bit more and come back with a few quotes ..

Post by **Zahir** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:28 pm

I think Findail (understandably) feared <i><b>Death</b></i> (or near-enough as to make no never-mind). That he was practically immortal only make it more horrific to him, since death isn't something he's used to even thinking about.

Now, maybe he was wrong and in fact he's alive still in the new Staff of Law--and personally I'd prefer to be dead than trapped for all time inside a stick.

Post by **Satansheart** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:49 am

heh .. 'daft'??? ... mmm .. another Brit?

Dumbass pommies eh?

Enough of the dissection, Findail needed no excuse, not only was he seperated from Elemesnedene but he had to spend the rest of his days with a suicidal leper, a dude who says nothing, a group of giants who do nothing but whinge and moan about their kin, and to top it all he gets buried inside a stick! Hey, he rescued the Quest from Kasreyn's power in defeating the Croyel didn't he? Leave The Appointed alone I say.[/quote]

onions · Post by **onions** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:58 pm

Hi Skyweir -
"Findail had no desire to surrender his 'deemed Elohim given right' to freedom"

I suppose so. I guess I can't get over the fact that the Elohim aren't as perfect as I expected them to be. If he can forsee the outcome of so much, why can't he get used to his fate?

"he saw the need eventually"
I remember him struggling against Vain every single step towards Linden! (jerk!!!)

And no, I'm not a Brit. But I used to be surrounded by them...mhmmm, Brits...

onions

onions · Post by **onions** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:02 pm

Hi Zahir,

"and personally I'd prefer to be dead than trapped for all time inside a stick"
That's true.
Hey, maybe that's what's so apalling to him: Being trapped. He can't do this shapechanging thing anymore, which means life to him.

onions · Post by **onions** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:06 pm

Hey, Satansheart,

"not only was he seperated from Elemesnedene but he had to spend the rest of his days with a suicidal leper, a dude who says nothing, a group of giants who do nothing but whinge and moan about their kin, and to top it all he gets buried inside a stick!"

LOL! Well, if you put it this way...
I still don't get the point of the Elohim making him responsible for making Covenant fail...and then punishing him if he failed. Why can't they just help them or at least tell them what's happening?

onions

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:53 am

the Elohim are a strange breed .. arrogant and self-obssessed .. they may have begun their existence with the intent to preserve the Creator's earth .. as his offspring .. but they had lost their way by the time TC entered the Land .. they became misguided .. concerned for only those things which would secure their elitist and exclusive position ..

Zahir is right .. Findail did fear death .. ending .. being extinguished.

in Ch.20 White Gold Wielder.

"I am Elohim. ... I am not made for death. I must not die"

Vain speaks and answers Findail ..

"You will not die. It is not death it is purpose. We will redeem the Earth from corruption."

and speaking of the elohim SRD describes them ...

Elohim: Earthpower incarnate. Amoral, arrogant, and self-complete, capable of anything. Sent by his people to redeem the EArth at any cost. To obtain the ring for himself if he could And if he could not, to pay the price of failure.

This price.

I think Findail feared and loathed Vain all along .. because all along he knew the cost that would be required of him if he failed to obtain the ring.

But he did not know what it would mean for him .. and not knowing/understanding .. he imho understandably feared.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:54 am

and Satansheart .. I would never have said 'dumbass pommies' being one myself

anyway .. thats a particularly american expression

Post by **Reisheiruhime** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:21 pm

Findail didn't want to lose his freedom.

Post by **Damelon** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:37 am

He knew that Vain's purpose was to turn him into a staff. His own was to use the white gold. If you were him which would you rather do?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:49 am

I'm weird

, so I pick being the Staff.

Post by **Reisheiruhime** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:50 am

That was me.

Post by **Damelon** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:59 am

Ok. Let me rephrase that.

If your not weird, what would you rather do?

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:29 pm

I'm sure Freud would love to analyse that one

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:46 pm

What I'd like to know: Why shouldn't Covenant know Vain's purpose? (not that it was difficult for the reader to guess anyway) Only because *they* were afraid Covenant might try to turn Vain into the staff and screw up?

Also, what would happened if Vain had come in touch with more of these thingies (sorry, can't my TOT right now

) at the One Tree? One turned his arm into wood, would he have turned into some kind of wrong staff had he been exposed to more of them?

Post by **vt53** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:54 pm

Didn't the elohn and Findal make it clear that they had "been there and done that" in service of the world before. They knew the dangers of trying to be god. As they matured the drew into themselves and no-longer sought to solve the worlds problems. Although he was an unlikable character who only helped reluctantly I felt Findal knew the lessons TC was learning, that evil cannot be eliminated, that the best they could do is allow the wild magic to fight this battle with dispite and hope Lord Foul did not gain power over it.

Findals final fate would have been distastful to any creature accustomed to being free and independent, to end combinded with the "made" perfection of the enemies creatures would have been awful to contemplate, I would have been nasty too!

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:19 am

well said vt!!

I 100% concur!!

Post by **Damelon** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:12 am

vt53 wrote:Findals final fate would have been distastful to any creature accustomed to being free and independent, to end combinded with the "made" perfection of the enemies creatures would have been awful to contemplate, I would have been nasty too!

What irritated the Elohim in general, and Findail in particular, was that the Ur-Viles creation of Vain deprived the Elohim the luxury of choice in how to deal with the problem.

The Ur-Viles creation of Vain was, to them, the fulfullment of their existance. To the Ur-Viles who were "made" not "born"; it brought a sense of belonging with the "born" creatures of the world.

Post by **Zahir** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:53 pm

Just a couple of thoughts.

--The circumstances of creating a new Staff of Law were very precise, and all of them needed to come together. An Elohim needed to be there. So did the SunSage, who needed to have the Ring. And I venture to guess Lord Foul had to be defeated first. Maybe that is why Covenant couldn't know--he had to arrive at certain knowledge about himself, the wild magic and Lord Foul. What's more, he had to achieve that knowledge, not simply receive it. The Urviles were willing to purchase lore as a shortcut for their own experiments. But they wouldn't do the same when their very survival was at stake.

--Findail died!!!!! His very essence was transformed into something fundamentally what other than what it was! He was "lost to himself," and this to a member of a race that--in theory--need not die ever while the world endured! He was willing to do it, but was clearly unhappy at the prospect in a big, big way. And yeah, he was a jerk by human standards (and those are the ones natural to us) but look at all the things he could have done but didn't. He could have killed Covenant and the Search. Or simply taken the Ring from a silenced Covenant. Or allowed Vain to be harmed. He did none of this, because as an Elohim he had a rigid ethical standard which he obeyed to the last. It allowed him to apply pressure, but never force--always in an effort to enlighten those around him (who, after all, seem like retarded blind children compared to the Elohim).

--It seems to me the Elohim were trying to overcome their own corrupiton, for the Sunbane was a cancer in the Earthpower. The Sunbane was a "shadow" within themselves, and they had to somehow steer some kind of way around it. Anyone who's ever tried to cope with mental or emotiona illness (like chronic depression, in my own case) can perhaps see why their actions are actually more complex than is always clear. Some of them even saw it in those terms, realizing they had become "less than they were." How could they not? The Sunbane was affecting them, and Foul was a foe they could not defeat openly. So they had to depend on a bunch of immature, foolish, short-lived, ignorant weaklings (from their pov) to save themselves from a moral and physical corruption..

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Why is Findail such a jerk?

Why is Findail such a jerk?