Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?

Book 4 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Moderators: Savor Dam, High Lord Tolkien, ussusimiel

T H E O M A C H
Servant of the Land
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:46 am

Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?

Post by T H E O M A C H »

I just read Donaldson's reply to a question in the G.I. from Ian Boulton that may be a spoiler to 'The Last Dark' (you've been warned!) I discuss the spoiler at the bottom.

Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!


Donaldson's answer:-
Spoiler
I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.




He seems to be saying... in fact, he is saying, that every single character in the Chronicles is part of his psyche. He created them. If he created them, then either he's having the mother of all trips and will wake up in a crack-den at the end of the Last Dark, or he's an embodiment of the Creator, or something else. Misdirection perhaps? Or a very incomplete answer?

Thoughts anyone?
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

T H E O M A C H wrote:Thoughts anyone?
My first thought was: haven't you read the First Chronicles? But that's a completley smartass answer, which you could easily counter with, "Sure I have. Haven't you read the Second Chronicles?" And I'd have to concede your point. But even though the Second Chronicles makes the issue of the Land's reality a matter of the "wrong question," or a question that misses the point, this isn't to say that Donaldson ever settled the issue. He has definitively stated in the GI that he never left behind the possibility that the Land was not entirely real in the same way as our world is real, that it in some sense is still meaningful to say that it's in Covenant's head. But this issue is complex, because you could say that the Land is in all our heads, or that the Land partakes in the same fundamental truths that transcend our own physical world. I think Donaldson has a Platonic way of thinking about the Land's reality, himself.

There are plenty of old, good threads about this subject in the 1st and 2nd Chrons forums. You might find them interesting.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
Borillar
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:03 pm

Post by Borillar »

I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Orlion »

You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows? 8)
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
User avatar
ur-Timewarden
Stonedownor
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by ur-Timewarden »

Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows? 8)
I don't know if I would find any of the answers relating to someone's imagination acceptable after 10 books. People have been throwing out the "it's all a dream" ending as sort of a joke around here, and that's how I'd feel if it were thrust upon me on page six-hundred-something of TLD.

Would it be a possible outcome? Yes. Would it be a fulfilling outcome? I don't think so, but that's just my humble opinion.
Nothing tears a family apart like a pack of wolves.
User avatar
ur-Timewarden
Stonedownor
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by ur-Timewarden »

Wait, let me clarify. If we say this is a product of SRD's imagination, I'm OK with that... :D
Nothing tears a family apart like a pack of wolves.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities.
I had to emphasize the "or." You're exactly right, Orlion. I don't think it's a binary decision, either/or. It's a lot more complex.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
T H E O M A C H
Servant of the Land
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:46 am

Post by T H E O M A C H »

Borillar wrote:I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
That was my reaction too. I'd been happy with the ambiguity, though to my mind it became a moot point once Linden was translated into the Land. This statement by Donaldson doesn't seem ambiguous, prime facie. However, judging by how the Last Chronicles have gone so far, I have faith in his ability to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion, and probably in a way that is more complex than the "real vs imaginary" scenarios.

I think the author regards his readership, and certainly his story, with too much regard to end with a Bobby Ewing shower scene.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

T H E O M A C H wrote:
Borillar wrote:I found myself taken aback by this GI answer too, because SRD has worked so hard to leave the answer to "is the Land real?" ambiguous, but this GI response appeared to dispel all doubt.
That was my reaction too. I'd been happy with the ambiguity, though to my mind it became a moot point once Linden was translated into the Land. This statement by Donaldson doesn't seem ambiguous, prime facie. However, judging by how the Last Chronicles have gone so far, I have faith in his ability to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion, and probably in a way that is more complex than the "real vs imaginary" scenarios.

I think the author regards his readership, and certainly his story, with too much regard to end with a Bobby Ewing shower scene.
The ambiguity being a "moot point," as you say, may be the explanation why Donaldson seems to emphasize the subjectivity angle when people ask him about it. Maybe he realizes that he has written too much evidence into the text for the "land is objectively real" theory, and needs to balance it out in his GI answers. Don't ignore this part of his answer:
SRD wrote:I'll restrict myself to a short answer.


He has given longer answers which maintain the ambiguity.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
T H E O M A C H
Servant of the Land
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:46 am

Post by T H E O M A C H »

Zarathustra wrote:
T H E O M A C H wrote: Don't ignore this part of his answer:
SRD wrote:I'll restrict myself to a short answer.


He has given longer answers which maintain the ambiguity.
You're quite right. I love the GI, but SRD has made something of a rod for his own back. Once something is out there, it's difficult to take it back. I'll stick with the ambiguity for the time being.
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Donaldson tosses out the "It could be Covenant's dream" explanation every once in a while on the GI. It doesn't quite work, however; Covenant is dead in the "real" world. So the possible spoiler is: perhaps Covenant is not dead. Let's take it a step further and say that his "death" was part of a dream; therefore, the Land is/was a dream within a dream.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
User avatar
Savor Dam
Will Be Herd!
Posts: 6156
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:02 am
Location: Pacific NorthWet
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post by Savor Dam »

Mentally hearing an impressive clergyman with a speech impediment talking about "a dweam wiffin a dweam..." :lol:
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon

Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry
Posts: 3157
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:16 pm
Location: Guildford, UK
Has thanked: 1 time

Post by TheFallen »

Orlion wrote:You guys keep assuming the Land has to be a product of Covenant's imagination or real. There are other possibilities. It could be a combination, it could be Linden's dream, it could be ether, who knows? 8)
It could be ether, or chloroform, or even horse tranquilisers - let's face it, as a doctor, Linden has access to all sorts of mind-altering pharmaceuticals :biggrin: .

However, I'm not going to pre-judge and am still keeping the faith - despite some evidence to the contrary both in the GI and in the LC so far - that SRD won't cop out and will achieve some form of satisfactory resolution... not an easy thing to do, I'd say, with all the loose ends and apparent contradictions/ambiguities, but here's hoping he pulls it off.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Savor Dam wrote:Mentally hearing an impressive clergyman with a speech impediment talking about "a dweam wiffin a dweam..." :lol:
"Impressive" is the key word there.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Re: Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

T H E O M A C H wrote:I just read Donaldson's reply to a question in the G.I. from Ian Boulton that may be a spoiler to 'The Last Dark' (you've been warned!) I discuss the spoiler at the bottom.

Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!


Donaldson's answer:-
Spoiler
I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.




He seems to be saying... in fact, he is saying, that every single character in the Chronicles is part of his psyche. He created them. If he created them, then either he's having the mother of all trips and will wake up in a crack-den at the end of the Last Dark, or he's an embodiment of the Creator, or something else. Misdirection perhaps? Or a very incomplete answer?

Thoughts anyone?
Upon re-reading this question I wonder, did Covenant's mind create Linden Avery and everybody else in the "real" world?
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
User avatar
lurch
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2694
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:46 pm
Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do

Post by lurch »

I think the title to the last book of the series is your answer..The Last Dark..It seems to me" Dark" as being The Mystery..Life..One's Life..and yes It IS all about ..Frame of Mind..The " Last" is the recognition by Linden that all her " Internal Troubles"..as made metaphor of in this fantasy " Land" are the result of How she thinks producing What she thinks..therefore she realizes since What she thinks always ends in a conflicted state of mind..the How has to change for the better, leading to..The Last Dark..The Last Mystery.

Ambiguity will be maintained...imho. Heck,,it worked for 9 books why in the world would he, the author, change at the last book? Ambiguity must not change for another reason also. The first chrons had a repeating mantra of..Be True..Be True to Yourself. Self Identity is at the core here, always has been with the TC Chrons. The Ambiguity has to be maintained inorder to keep it clear that it isn't about being Like TC or Linden..so fans would emulate the characters ( like the Humbled having fingers removed to be Like Berek, and TC,) but that Self Identity is each of OUR OWN Last Dark,,Big Mystery..to solve.. Unknown to explore..ultimate individual Answer to Find..Life. Thematically the Ambiguity must stay in place . The Author cannot answer objectively about an answer that is so subjective. Yes..each of Us has our own Land and that is the necessary Freedom of the author's Land.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
User avatar
spoonchicken
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:09 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by spoonchicken »

the doctors at the leprosarium shot TC up with some really good stuff...he's been on an acid trip the entire time!!!
"Who enters here, do not lose hope / Who leaves; do not rejoice / Who has not been, shall be here yet / Who has been here, shall never forget" Anonymous / discovered scratched into the wall of a cell in the KGB's Lefortovo Prison in Moscow/originally quoted in the book "Alexander Dolguns Story" (by A.Dolgun),describing the ordeals of an American citizen falsely imprisoned by the Soviet Union from 1948 to 1957.
User avatar
Horrim Carabal
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:13 am
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Post by Horrim Carabal »

The "reality" of the Land and its Earth have always been (and still are) up in the air.
Believer
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:53 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Believer »

Am I the only one who just took it as a joke?
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Orlion »

Believer wrote:Am I the only one who just took it as a joke?
Kinda a snappy comeback :D Since there aren't any wizards in the Land, he can't say that they did it :biggrin:
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Post Reply

Return to “The Last Dark”