How bad is it?

[ParanoiA]

I strongly urge everyone who does not like this book to give it another reading. I think this is the best book in the entire series. I'm riveted.
Donaldson is in top form.
Every character is vivid and human in ways that teach many lessons about the struggles of life.
As per usual, the reader will be greatly dismayed by a lot of things. Hurtloam is back, but Covenant refuses it and remains a leper by his own choice.
From TPTP on, I kept wishing he could have that healing again. The Sunbane was agonizing to put up with, as well as Covenant's Elohim imposed absence throughout "the One Tree," but that only served to make overcoming these difficulties more meaningful.
Not since "the One Tree" has Donaldson tackled such earth shattering powers and immortalities and yet managed to keep it real and gripping.
When cord Pahni demanded that Linden resurrect Liand, Linden's insistence that she could not do it were very telling-- what good would anyone's sacrifice be if Linden could simply bring the dead back anytime someone gave their life for her?
No one else but Donaldson could capture such astoundingly vast and cosmic struggles without deflating the tensions of mortality.

I'm with you, man. I'm not really into much fantasy (mild aversion to concepts of magic) so I'm not as familiar with fantasy cliches, or overly used plot devices. I have been quite drawn to the scope of world destruction here and how it relates with the higher philosophical story. And I think he's been brilliant at tying, not only the second chronicles, but the first chronicles, all together with the last. Maybe that's easier to do than I realize, but I'm impressed with how his imagination has mined the original stuff and formed new stuff and it all works together.

I'm also quite forgiving of the introduction of the Insequent and Jeremiah. I love Jeremiah's talent. (I even wondered if the creator was trapped in his mind and that's why we didn't see the creator before Linden returned to the land). I don't know how you introduce these new players in book 7 without it feeling like a hack job, but I'd rather get that feeling than do without all of them just so it feels better.

And, in the face of my lack of enthusiasm for magic, I really like how he defines and distinguishes types of lore for the various magical(?) characters.

I think I like WOTWE's appreciative distinction over likeability. The negative comments I've read here are quite similar to the negativity I've felt for all 9 books now.

I've always loathed the meticulous grind of the journey throughout the land. The first few descriptive landscapes were great, and of course from time to time were quite rewarding (like the Giant's stonework of Revelstone) - but man, pages and pages of monotonous descriptions of land features has always worn me the hell out.

The first 3 books were the only ones where the threat of the antagonist matched his execution. People you liked, freaking died. Attacks left people dead - lots of them. Quite dramatic when building up for new encounters. The next 3, quite close, and of course the Sunbane was a tortorous evil for the land and its organisms.

In these last books however, to me anyway, he's showing a dramatic reluctance to spill blood and verify the threat of the antagonists. They do require *all* of their resources to get out of these messes - but nothing really 'costs' like it did before. (Those Skurj should have demolished most of their party and required a dramatic sacrifice perhaps to save what was left).

SWMNBN was a scooby-doo monster. You know, they chase you until they catch up with you, then stand there and growl at you until you start running again. Otherwise, I suppose you could just rest if you could handle the noise and rank monster breath. And SRD really put that right in the text. Covenant could not understand why she didn't strike when she easily could have killed them all.

So, I don't know, I do see the negativity that people are writing about in reference to these last books being of an obscure quality at the moment. But I've always had hangups with this series, and now get to add a couple of more - but all in all, I really enjoy them. I love the characters. Stave matters to me. Liand mattered to me. Anele mattered to me. Phani's love for Liand and her heartwrenching demands to Linden Avery were powerful (albeit a little brief).

None of the giants are growing on me though, so that's dissapointing. Everytime I think of something good, I think of something bad....yeah, appreciate is a great word here.

[ninjaboy]

This is really a great book.
On my first read through it was a little overwhelming you know, and the pacing was kinda off..
But I'm reading it again and it's all so much smoother and really damn amazing, essentially. I'm getting better at distinguishing between the Giants, and it's really such an epic story, with so many huge events all within a handful of days.. My first read-through was a little confusing, I suppose, but now I'm completely engrossed in the book, all the subtle interactions and all the major events have me transfixed, just like the first and second Chrons..

[finn]

I think if you read half a million words and it seems that you've read far less, it's a sign that the author is doing his job.

Ah, good point. I stand corrected. AATE seemed like a billion words to me. I see what you mean.

Mate, I think we need to get these guys in the "tank" !

[peter]

AATE is the best book in a very good series. If you don't like the books, don't read them.

Hmmm...... Perhaps I'm not getting this but if you don't read them.....?

[peter]

6 REASONS WHY I DON'T LIKE THE LAST CHRONS AND AATE IN PARTICULAR.

1. The total loss of opportunity that the Last Chrons represents re our chance to explore this wonderful world that Donaldson created in the first Chrons and maintained in the second. We'll never now get to go through the Guards Gap up into the Westron Mountains and meet the Ho-aru and the Nimishi. We'll never meet the Haruchi women and children and we'll never sail on a Giantship into the harbours of Home. I mourn this loss greatly and say as Hamlet did 'From this.. to this!'.

2. The poor charachterisation that renders all of the Giants virtually indistuinguishable from each other (remember Picthwife, the First, Saltheart Foamfollower and weep), Liand and Phani a shadow of Sunder and Hollian, and throws in and kills of charachters (and Banes) in a manner that you develop no feeling for them, no empathy for them and little real interest in what happens to them.

3. The loss of 'The Land' itself as one of the main players on the stage. From a place of rare beauty (the 1st Chrons) to a devastated and tortured landscape (the 2nd Chrons) to ..... 'we call it scenery'.

4. The interminable use of Time Travel tricks and Place Hopping tricks and slack jawed Zoned Out Charachter tricks to hop from perspective to perspective. Lazy thinking, Lazy planning, Lazy writing.

5. The transformation of TC from a pro-active sentient charachter whose inherent humanity and care alowed you to stay with him even at his worst (re his actions and atitude), to a rambling decrepitude (ok- fair enough, he is dead) that when he does act, does so with callous abandon and sub-human levels of reticence about the things he does. The killing of his wife, the destruction of his son for God's sake. He gives this not one tenth of the thought that he does to Jerremiah's condition. This from the man who would not suffer to see a child die in his own world in order to save one not his. Mhoram would have been apalled - remember he smiled at TC's refusal to abandon the child and said that no ill could come of such an act. Where is that TC ...... Where I ask you!

6. The usurping of the Chrons by LA. I am not a THOOLAH supporter but LA's charachter is essentially a different one to the old TC and for most people of lesser interest as the central protagontist. This was fine for a short period in the 2nd Chrons - after all we had to some extent been prepared by the Hile Troy section of the 1st (which I loved by the way). But book after book of Linden. Come on Steve ..... would you want to be married to this woman. I'm begining to feel like I am!

[TheFallen]

The first 3 books were the only ones where the threat of the antagonist matched his execution. People you liked, freaking died. Attacks left people dead - lots of them. Quite dramatic when building up for new encounters. The next 3, quite close, and of course the Sunbane was a tortorous evil for the land and its organisms.

In these last books however, to me anyway, he's showing a dramatic reluctance to spill blood and verify the threat of the antagonists. They do require *all* of their resources to get out of these messes - but nothing really 'costs' like it did before.

A reluctance to spill blood? Okay, maybe in ROTE and FR (in these, pretty much the only character of any interest/depth that buys the farm is the Mahdoubt and even then of her own choosing).

But in AATE??? Surely SRD becomes the Grim Reaper all of a sudden and abruptly scythes pretty central characters like Liand, Esmer, Anele, Galt and Joan in the space of a hundred or so pages. I do agree about "costs" though - none of these demises have much sense of cost about them, because to me they "feel" authorially careless in some way - or maybe unconcerned is a better word. And here's why.

I'm not saying for one second that SRD woke up one day 75% of the way through writing AATE and suddenly thought "Oh crap! I've got all these loose narrative strands to tie up and only a book and a quarter to go... I'd better snuff a load of characters out quick!" It's just that I think he's quite deliberately and almost entirely fixating on Linden's inner conflicts and things external to these just aren't of much interest to him. They're incidental.

So, I don't know, I do see the negativity that people are writing about in reference to these last books being of an obscure quality at the moment... Everytime I think of something good, I think of something bad....yeah, appreciate is a great word here.

I don't know either - I'm firmly ambivalent at the moment. There are things I intellectually appreciate but also things I don't, as well as things I subliminally emotionally respond to, but also things I don't.

[Lord Zombiac]

peter, most of the issues you have are legit, but I'd like to point a few things out:

Liand and Phani a shadow of Sunder and Hollian, and throws in and kills of charachters (and Banes) in a manner that you develop no feeling for them, no empathy for them and little real interest in what happens to them.

Believe it or not, when I first read "the Wounded Land" and continued the rest of the series, I felt that Sunder and Hollian were both pale and empty characters compared to the Stonedownors in the first series. It was only after re-reading these books decades later that I came to realize how strong they are.
I am not making the same mistake twice. Liand, in particular is a tremendous character. In the aftermath of the battle of First Woodhelvenin, he shines like some kind of holy man, gathering a crowd around them on his great horse, raising high his Orcrest, and eloquently seeding hope and love for the Land and Earthpower into these people, who are doomed, doomed, to lifelong imprisonment in Revelstone!

The transformation of TC from a pro-active sentient charachter whose inherent humanity and care alowed you to stay with him even at his worst (re his actions and atitude), to a rambling decrepitude (ok- fair enough, he is dead) that when he does act, does so with callous abandon and sub-human levels of reticence about the things he does. The killing of his wife, the destruction of his son for God's sake. He gives this not one tenth of the thought that he does to Jerremiah's condition. This from the man who would not suffer to see a child die in his own world in order to save one not his. Mhoram would have been apalled - remember he smiled at TC's refusal to abandon the child and said that no ill could come of such an act. Where is that TC ...... Where I ask you!

Paradox, my friend, paradox. He's been the Timewarden for a long, long time. His confrontation with SWMNBN is powerful, and resonates of the potential heroics ahead-- and the potential sacrifices that have yet to be made. That he wound up sacrificing Elena to the bane was another example of Donaldson's epic darkness and the appalling evil that he shows his readers so vividly. Same guy who went back to save the snakebite kid? Paradox, remember that always. That is essential to understanding Covenant.

The usurping of the Chrons by LA. I am not a THOOLAH supporter but LA's charachter is essentially a different one to the old TC and for most people of lesser interest as the central protagontist. This was fine for a short period in the 2nd Chrons - after all we had to some extent been prepared by the Hile Troy section of the 1st (which I loved by the way). But book after book of Linden. Come on Steve ..... would you want to be married to this woman. I'm begining to feel like I am!

To each his own. I wouldn't want to marry her either, but for me, Linden is a tremendous central character. Her deep character flaws forebode the same kind of transforming personal growth that Covenant went through. The staff of law is hers in every sense of the word, but she gives it up to save her son! I find her compelling and the natural heir to Covenant, who has, at this point, changed so much, that there isn't really anywhere else to go with his character.
Everyone loved Bilbo in "the Hobbit." I don't know about anyone else but my first reaction to "the Fellowship of the rings" was "Frodo? Who's Frodo? Why isn't this another story about Bilbo?"
Well, I have since learned my lesson. Sometimes you must pass the torch.
***
*sigh*
Now I'm ready to ask: WTF is THOOLAH?

[TheFallen]

Liand, in particular is a tremendous character. In the aftermath of the battle of First Woodhelvenin, he shines like some kind of holy man, gathering a crowd around them on his great horse, raising high his Orcrest, and eloquently seeding hope and love for the Land and Earthpower into these people, who are doomed, doomed, to lifelong imprisonment in Revelstone!

So why is he - and several others - violently yanked off stage in a hot second, then? Just for shock tactics? That would seem a little banal... once, I might accept, or even twice, but recurringly? Seemingly because secondary characters are not really of concern to SRD in the Last Chrons - they're just a narrative means to his end of focussing so intently on Linden's conflicts.

Everyone loved Bilbo in "the Hobbit." I don't know about anyone else but my first reaction to "the Fellowship of the rings" was "Frodo? Who's Frodo? Why isn't this another story about Bilbo?"

For the record, I didn't much like Bilbo. Plus as a teeny minor point, LOTR is not entitled The Second Chronicles of Bilbo Baggins. Mind you, I didn't like Frodo much either, but then again, nobody reads JRRT with much expectation of any profound characterization - the objectives he set himself (and achieved with an admirable skill) revolved around other concerns entirely.

Now I'm ready to ask: WTF is THOOLAH?

I believe it's The Holy Order Of Linden Avery Haters - a fine and august body whose central precept I can easily see the appeal of. I might well have signed up for a lifetime membership by now, but I'm too busy agonising over whether this would be the right or the wrong thing to do. This may take several lifetimes - I will almost certainly have to burst into tears a few more times and possibly have a few cathartic self-harming sessions as well, before I can finally make my mind up.

Actually, I think something as empowering as hate is as a reaction more effort than Linden deserves. She makes me feel more world-weary than anything else.

[Lord Zombiac]

This obviously boils down to one thing. People don't like change.
In each installment of the Chronicles, first, second, and last, there are notable changes-- changes that alienate some readers and changes that excite others.
That's the chance SRD is taking.
Above all, taking those chances are the hallmark of an original and brilliant writer, not a "sell out" as some have claimed.
Believe me, the changes from 1stTCTC to 2ndTCTC really upset me! I might have been decrying it as an awful book, had there been a KW in the 80's.
But I adapt, I learn.
There are plenty of legitimate complaints in this series-- but such complaints exist just the same for every other TCTC installment.
I happen to like Linden's character, and having seen Covenant change and grow so much in these books, I don't really think there is anywhere else to go with that character-- unless SRD is going to write a prequel about Covenant's life before the Land. (hint, hint, Donaldson, are you reading this?)

[ParanoiA]

A reluctance to spill blood? Okay, maybe in ROTE and FR (in these, pretty much the only character of any interest/depth that buys the farm is the Mahdoubt and even then of her own choosing).

But in AATE??? Surely SRD becomes the Grim Reaper all of a sudden and abruptly scythes pretty central characters like Liand, Esmer, Anele, Galt and Joan in the space of a hundred or so pages.

I did think about that part when I made that statement, and you're right he definitely threw in some carnage and tried to exact a cost in AATE - and to me, Liand and Anele were quite costly. I am still upset about losing Liand, I had it in my mind he would go back to Mithil Stonedown and be the mentor for his people re-learning their heritage. So much for that.

Maybe it feels too "nice" because part of the draw in the first chronicles, for me anyway, was the unflinching severity of it all. Any author, or film maker for that matter, that will tackle the subject of rape, as well as being consistent with the threat capacity of the antagonist, has my attention. Because it feels more plausible, and I know they will not flinch to tell me the story and it could go anywhere. When artists purposely remove uncomfortable violence and essentially neuter their antagonist, then I don't share in the fear and dread, and the story is not as dynamically possible - I just lose interest.

I think because I remember always dreading the next encounter, in the first and second chronicles, the heavy cost of encounters just in general, I absolutely notice the lack of it in this last installment. I'm just not moved to really fear any of the antagonists in this story. The third book was a little late to get started with it. But we'll see, maybe he's saving up that kind of drama for The Last Dark. It's always possible. And it might make sense if he's trying to put this last book, and the world destruction set in motion, on a whole 'nother level of terror.

I will say, I enjoyed the development of Liand and Phani's relationship precisely because it was more implied than anything else. But you're right, most of this story is so internalized in Linden that it does appear he's sacrificed more intimate connections with other characters.

It's just hard for me to be too hard on ole Steve, because you never know what he's doing on purpose, to achieve some unknown end, or what he's failing at. TLD will resolve that for me, I think.

[TheFallen]

This obviously boils down to one thing. People don't like change.

I'm not buying that - it's a truism

Thoughtful people *do* like change, if they perceive that change as an improvement in some way.

The same thoughtful people will *not* welcome change, if, in their (hopefully thought through and not kneejerk) subjective view, it is a change for the worse.

In each installment of the Chronicles, first, second, and last, there are notable changes-- changes that alienate some readers and changes that excite others. That's the chance SRD is taking.
Above all, taking those chances are the hallmark of an original and brilliant writer, not a "sell out" as some have claimed.

I think that's a non-sequitur, though I wouldn't disagree with your statement that SRD is indeed an original and powerful writer.

What you seem to be doing is stating that change, or progress if you'd rather, is laudable simply for its own sake. Whereas it's of course true that stasis implies stagnation (which is obviously no good thing), you're blithely ignoring the "jumping the shark" possibility - or to put it another way, writers, artists, sportsmen and women or whoever can rise, reach a peak and then also fall away. Now I am *not* saying that this is the case with SRD in the Last Chrons, but my ambivalence towards the 3 books so far would suggest that SRD's creative and narrative interests have moved too far in a direction that is of less appeal to subjective little me. For me, change or movement *has* occurred, but it's somehow unbalanced the narrative a little.

But I adapt, I learn.

It's always important to keep an open mind - but it's equally important to have the courage of ones convictions, or a trust in one's response. ***REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM WARNING***I enjoy eggs and bacon - but I really don't want to eat worms and pondfilth, so no matter how often this is served up to me or how often I might try to choke this down, I will not adapt, nor learn to enjoy it.

I did think about that part when I made that statement, and you're right he definitely threw in some carnage and tried to exact a cost in AATE - and to me, Liand and Anele were quite costly. I am still upset about losing Liand, I had it in my mind he would go back to Mithil Stonedown and be the mentor for his people re-learning their heritage. So much for that.

I'm upset about losing Esmer and Anele as well - I thought they were both extremely interesting characters... SRD does depict "conflicted" so well.

I think because I remember always dreading the next encounter, in the first and second chronicles, the heavy cost of encounters just in general, I absolutely notice the lack of it in this last installment. I'm just not moved to really fear any of the antagonists in this story. The third book was a little late to get started with it.

I wonder if your lack of dread in the antagonists is caused in part by a lack of emotional investment in the protagonists?

But we'll see, maybe he's saving up that kind of drama for The Last Dark. It's always possible. And it might make sense if he's trying to put this last book, and the world destruction set in motion, on a whole 'nother level of terror... It's just hard for me to be too hard on ole Steve, because you never know what he's doing on purpose, to achieve some unknown end, or what he's failing at. TLD will resolve that for me, I think.

I hope so too

...and ending with a bit of mischief, because I can't help myself...

I will say, I enjoyed the development of Liand and Phani's relationship...

SRD sometimes chooses names for his characters with care and deliberation - Martiihr, Stave etc obviously both having a double meaning. For the same reasons, the Ramen Cord who you're referring to is VERY definitively Pahni, and NOT Phani...

[Lord Zombiac]

All I'm saying is you can't judge anything SRD writes without letting it sink in first. from TPTP on, I wanted to chuck those books in the trash.

In each installment of the Chronicles, first, second, and last, there are notable changes-- changes that alienate some readers and changes that excite others. That's the chance SRD is taking.
Above all, taking those chances are the hallmark of an original and brilliant writer, not a "sell out" as some have claimed.

How is this a non sequitur?
You do take a chance when you deliberately write things that may alienate the reader.
Taking such risks is not something a hack would have done.
A Hack would have simply sent Covenant off to some distant land with a party of adventurers and made him defeat Lord Foul with the white gold over and over again.
There is clearly a correlation between your talents as a writer and how much you are willing to risk upsetting your readers.
I keep thinking of "Misery" here.
My statement was entirely logical.

[Barnetto]

6 REASONS WHY I DON'T LIKE THE LAST CHRONS AND AATE IN PARTICULAR.

1. The total loss of opportunity that the Last Chrons represents re our chance to explore this wonderful world that Donaldson created in the first Chrons and maintained in the second. We'll never now get to go through the Guards Gap up into the Westron Mountains and meet the Ho-aru and the Nimishi. We'll never meet the Haruchi women and children and we'll never sail on a Giantship into the harbours of Home. I mourn this loss greatly and say as Hamlet did 'From this.. to this!'.

2. The poor charachterisation that renders all of the Giants virtually indistuinguishable from each other (remember Picthwife, the First, Saltheart Foamfollower and weep), Liand and Phani a shadow of Sunder and Hollian, and throws in and kills of charachters (and Banes) in a manner that you develop no feeling for them, no empathy for them and little real interest in what happens to them.

3. The loss of 'The Land' itself as one of the main players on the stage. From a place of rare beauty (the 1st Chrons) to a devastated and tortured landscape (the 2nd Chrons) to ..... 'we call it scenery'.

4. The interminable use of Time Travel tricks and Place Hopping tricks and slack jawed Zoned Out Charachter tricks to hop from perspective to perspective. Lazy thinking, Lazy planning, Lazy writing.

5. The transformation of TC from a pro-active sentient charachter whose inherent humanity and care alowed you to stay with him even at his worst (re his actions and atitude), to a rambling decrepitude (ok- fair enough, he is dead) that when he does act, does so with callous abandon and sub-human levels of reticence about the things he does. The killing of his wife, the destruction of his son for God's sake. He gives this not one tenth of the thought that he does to Jerremiah's condition. This from the man who would not suffer to see a child die in his own world in order to save one not his. Mhoram would have been apalled - remember he smiled at TC's refusal to abandon the child and said that no ill could come of such an act. Where is that TC ...... Where I ask you!

6. The usurping of the Chrons by LA. I am not a THOOLAH supporter but LA's charachter is essentially a different one to the old TC and for most people of lesser interest as the central protagontist. This was fine for a short period in the 2nd Chrons - after all we had to some extent been prepared by the Hile Troy section of the 1st (which I loved by the way). But book after book of Linden. Come on Steve ..... would you want to be married to this woman. I'm begining to feel like I am!

Hi Peter,

I do have some sympathy with some of the points that you raise, even though I have read through the book twice (and actually enjoyed it better on the second read through), but to comment on some of your points:

1. I think assuming that SRD would have spent his time writing something better if he hadn't written the Last Chronicles is a bit of an odd perspective (and a leap of faith)! Anyway, SRD doesn't really do travelogues. And actually my least favourite part of the his earlier Chronicles was The One Tree which involved more exploration that any other.

2. I'm not sure that I agree that there is anything inherently less interesting or well developed in the Characters in the LC - but I do agree that there are too many of them - and that leads to the lack of identification and their lack of development. And that also leads to another gripe I had when reading AATE, the seemingly regular need to refer to what everyone in the whole group was doing/thinking/reacting. That did put me off somewhat.

The killing off of characters is a difficult one - personally I've always found it more difficult that no one ever dies (from the good side) in these amazing battle scenes, so I have less problem accepting a death or two... yes, maybe they could have gone on to do more, but there is only one book left!

3. I know that you have a real problem with Kevin's Dirt. But I do think that you are romanticising the Land from the First and Second Chronicles somewhat. By TPTP, the Land was pretty much a wasteland. It was ravaged pretty much throughout the Second Chronicles. And in the Last Chronicles there are additions like the Viles' Deep.

Anyway, personally I like the central premise that the people of the Land have been deprived of their birthright of health sight via a combination of Kevin's Dirt and, in particular, the role of the Haruchai Masters. It works for me, much in the same way as the torture of the Land in TWL worked for me.

4. I agree that there are issues with the time travel elements - and on one level I don't like them. However, by somewhat letting go of the paradoxes inherent in them, I did really enjoy the part where they went back to Berek's camp - and I've come to like the idea of the Falls.

And on second read through, the flip flopping of consciousness of Linden and TC is less intrusive. Linden is actually only out very briefly (which you wouldn't guess from some of the threads).

And wouldn't you expect some sort of mental trauma for TC in being resurrected from a Timewarden with near infinite knowledge of the history (and future) of the Land to a mere mortal? I thought the first chapter was absolutely amazing on that score and the fact that TC can be tipped back into his inner mental cracks is completely consistent as a theme. In fact, at the end of the book, where the POV remains TC's, the theme is used to great effect by SRD when the Raver trips TC.

I think your real issue here (see point 6) is that the POV remains with Linden too much. And I agree with you. And it spoilt to some extent my first read through as I kept wanting the POV to change to TC and I kept being frustrated by it mostly staying with Linden. On second read, I knew where the POV was going to be and it didn't frustrate (or bother) me to the same extent at all, however.

5. This is the point I most disagree with you on.

One of the themes is whether good can be achieved through evil means. TC's actions should be seen to some extent in this light. Sacrificing Elena. Killing his wife. As a theme I think it is a strong one and an interesting one. And TC hasn't turned into some callous killer. He accepts his responsibility even concerning Elena (though he could simply say that he didn't realise what Sunder and Hollian would do) - nevertheless, the contrast with how he deals with the responsibility of the dark deeds he has to perform and the way that Linden does (or fails to do) is also a really strong theme (for me).

"Sub-human reticence"? Concerning his wife? Given her state and condition, surely he has no difficulty in persuading himself (over a long period) that he is justified in this one act. (It's not a theme that is alien to SRD in any event if you consider what happened to the mother in The Gap Series - it's actually quite interesting to compare Angus' actions with TC's.) And the achievement of that act at the end of AATE is one its strongest sections.

6. This is where I've got most sympathy with you. Particularly in AATE. In the other books, there was no possibility of a TC POV chapter, but in this book I felt somewhat starved and frustrated by Linden retaining the lion's share of the POV up until the last 100 pages or so.

But SRD defends Linden as one of his character's (I think he's even gone so far as saying she is his favourite (he would say "favorite")) so I think we are probably on a losing battle there.

Don't expect you to suddenly change your mind on any of this, by the way! Just responding to your thread!

[ParanoiA]

SRD sometimes chooses names for his characters with care and deliberation - Martiihr, Stave etc obviously both having a double meaning. For the same reasons, the Ramen Cord who you're referring to is VERY definitively Pahni, and NOT Phani...

He he, that may have been a Freudian slip on my part because for some reason I think Pahni is absolutely hot. I just can't figure out why I think that...

[Zarathustra]

This obviously boils down to one thing. People don't like change.

Or nostalgia?



Yeah. That's it. Why bother looking at all the 1000s of words people have written to explain their own feelings when you can sum it up for them in one condescending bumper-sticker psychoanalysis?

I need to come up with a counter-psychoanalysis to explain why people feel the need to explain other people's disappointment to themselves. I just don't get it.

There are plenty of legitimate complaints in this series-- but such complaints exist just the same for every other TCTC installment.

This contradicts what you said above. If those same complaints existed for the first two Chrons, then how could our disappointment possibly be reduced to dislike of change? In order for your first premise to be true, we have to be objecting to something new, by your own argument.

And many of us are. While Donaldson's writing in AATE has evolved naturally from his writing style in the past, it is without question different. Some of those differences I like, some I do not. If you want to boil it down to anything, boil it down to that.

I happen to like Linden's character,

So do I.

[Vraith]

I need to come up with a counter-psychoanalysis to explain why people feel the need to explain other people's disappointment to themselves. I just don't get it.

Well, let me explain to you why feel the need for a counter-psychoanalysis...you may not know it, but you cannot stand it when people explain you to yourself, therefore must explain to them that their explanations appear directed at others, but are in reality self-reflective. This explanation is simple once I explain to you that it is both discursive and recursive.

Heh...sorry...just had to amuse myself..


Anyway, my main interest in this thread, such as it is, isn't so much to tell peeps they're wrong, but to see what/how peeps think is bad, say "This is why I don't think it's bad," and then ASK "does that make a difference?"

[Lord Zombiac]

This contradicts what you said above. If those same complaints existed for the first two Chrons, then how could our disappointment possibly be reduced to dislike of change? In order for your first premise to be true, we have to be objecting to something new, by your own argument.

your emphasis on the word "same" indicates you did not understand my point-- change was equally upsetting in the first and second series. I speak of change itself, not of story elements-- that would be a contradiction.
Not trying to be a "condescending bumper sticker" here, just identifying what, at least for me, made the earlier books agonizing. Sometimes you can get to the heart of the matter by boiling it down to one thing.
However, there are other, more legitimate reasons for people to not like these books. But those issues do not bother me at all.
I'm used to Donaldson tormenting me, and there are flaws in the whole series.
Like white gold itself, the flaws somehow make it better!
At least for me.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I need to come up with a counter-psychoanalysis to explain why people feel the need to explain other people's disappointment to themselves. I just don't get it.

Well, let me explain to you why feel the need for a counter-psychoanalysis...you may not know it, but you cannot stand it when people explain you to yourself, therefore must explain to them that their explanations appear directed at others, but are in reality self-reflective. This explanation is simple once I explain to you that it is both discursive and recursive.

Heh...sorry...just had to amuse myself..


Anyway, my main interest in this thread, such as it is, isn't so much to tell peeps they're wrong, but to see what/how peeps think is bad, say "This is why I don't think it's bad," and then ASK "does that make a difference?"

For some reason Z keeps thinking I'm talking about him. But I only do that when his back is turned.

[Lord Zombiac]

I need to come up with a counter-psychoanalysis to explain why people feel the need to explain other people's disappointment to themselves. I just don't get it.

Now who's being condescending?
All I did was suggest people give it another reading or let it sink in before they come to a conclusion. I have pointed out that many people's complaints are legit.
They certainly don't diminish this book for me.

[Lord Zombiac]

And many of us are. While Donaldson's writing in AATE has evolved naturally from his writing style in the past, it is without question different. Some of those differences I like, some I do not. If you want to boil it down to anything, boil it down to that.

I did. Is this not change?