How much did Covenant know about Elena?

[sohaliatalitha]

Thinking back over the illearth war, one thing has been bothering me.

How much do you think Covenant knew about Elena before she fully explained her heritage to him?

I've read around a little and the general consensus seems to me that he didn't realise she was his daughter until she told him during their quest for the life's blood.

I remember however, when I was reading the book, that he kept on getting these flashes of intuition and insight that he seemed to both ignore and puzzle over. Also, several things are pointed out to us about her (like the colour of her eyes) which are similar to Covenant. From this I drew the conclusion that he actually figured it out but purposefully ignored it to avoid his own guilt and explain away her actions. Covenant was very good at ignoring things during the first chronicles after all, and I would hardly give him the Reliable Narrator of The Year Award.

What are your thoughts?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Thinking back over the illearth war, one thing has been bothering me.

How much do you think Covenant knew about Elena before she fully explained her heritage to him?

I've read around a little and the general consensus seems to me that he didn't realise she was his daughter until she told him during their quest for the life's blood.

I remember however, when I was reading the book, that he kept on getting these flashes of intuition and insight that he seemed to both ignore and puzzle over. Also, several things are pointed out to us about her (like the colour of her eyes) which are similar to Covenant. From this I drew the conclusion that he actually figured it out but purposefully ignored it to avoid his own guilt and explain away her actions. Covenant was very good at ignoring things during the first chronicles after all, and I would hardly give him the Reliable Narrator of The Year Award.

What are your thoughts?

Whatever the consensus says, Elena gave him the facts while they were still in Revelstone. Before that, I would say Covenant knew nothing, suspected nothing.

Edit- reading further, I see that Covenant began to notice physical similarities only after Elena told him about their familial relationship.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

If it's any consolation, when I was new to the Watch I claimed that Covenant woke up at the end of TPTP after being hit by a car. They thought it was a pretty funny mistake, I guess.

[Lord Zombiac]

before they left revelstone. same time as he jammed loric's krill into that table...
and she still came on to him!

[sohaliatalitha]

That actually makes me feel better (and worse). It also teaches me to never trust the internet! This one website I was on (TV tropes, the pop culture wiki - which I always thought of as a trustworthy source- tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChroniclesOfThomasCovenant) claimed that she only told him, or her only realised the full extent of her relationship during their quest

From that I assumed she told him she was Lena's daughter - not that she was his daughter too, and that she only confirmed it /after/ they had begun the quest

Hmmm... Now I need to re read it more closely...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

That actually makes me feel better (and worse). It also teaches me to never trust the internet! This one website I was on (TV tropes, the pop culture wiki - which I always thought of as a trustworthy source- tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChroniclesOfThomasCovenant) claimed that she only told him, or her only realised the full extent of her relationship during their quest

From that I assumed she told him she was Lena's daughter - not that she was his daughter too, and that she only confirmed it /after/ they had begun the quest

Hmmm... Now I need to re read it more closely...

That page also says: "Parental Incest: Elena and Covenant. However, Elena is unaware that Covenant is her Father. Elena seduces Covenant almost as soon as he appears in the Land again. It's almost as though she's had a crush on her mysterious white-gold-wielding other-worldly father for awhile. Thomas eventually accepts her advances, though nothing is implied beyond that..."

Covenant accepted her advances?

[ninjaboy]

I am with LZ - Covenant would have guessed the truth in Revelstone when Elena was talking to him.. But he was hoping his instinct was wrong and she was not his daughter..

[duchess of malfi]

The books specifically say that Covenant refused her advances, but somehow it has spread over the internet through the years (such as the site you mentioned and in some Amazon reviews) that Covenant and Elena were lovers. The whole situation is squicky enough without the actual sex ever taking place - not sure where people get this stuff from or why they spread it.

[jonnyredleader]

i think he starts to realise when Elena tells him she has been visited by the ranyhyn. He has to leave the room very quickly overwhelmed by the import of what she has told him.
personally i think they were lovers however icky that sounds. he rips off her towel! she kisses him on the lips, he gets very upset when she blames him for the ranyhyns death at the landslide and he stomps off muttering how he could be treated like that twice in one life (the other being Joan), she shaves him!! he tells her he loves her and she loves him. When Lena asks to marry him he says her daughter is the one he loves. SRD has said that he toned down the relationship for the publisher. and that to his credit TC doesnt go through with consummation of this relationship and tries to find a father/daughter balance despite some very unfatherly desires. This relationship was a turning point for TC and his feelings for the land

[Krazy Kat]

One possibility is that Elena is actually, Lena.

Lena dreams, or fantasizes, about Revelstone, and being a Lord. From Stonedown, to Revelstone.
Influenced by her Mother's term at the Lorestraat, listening to songs and legends, stories of Ranyhyn and Giants, gives her perhaps, delusions of granduer. Even snobery, by rejecting Triock. The Danger in Dreams.
Her encounter with Thomas Covenant, and the annual visits by the Ranyhyn, spur her on to fulfilling her ambitions.

Of course, I can only speculate!
In the Illearth War, there are two stories that can be superimposed on each other. Elena and Troy. Who are both flawed by blindness. One is differant from the other, but blindness all the same.

Take Doom's Retreat!
Can you see a superimposition there, when the 'word of warning' is triggered by Foul's army, causing the valley to be blocked by rubble - on the flip side - Elena crosses the blocked valley of rubble and in doing so, loses her Ranyhyn in the landslide. And so on, and so forth...

Is Elena, Lena?
Maybe!

[Linna Heartbooger]

One possibility is that Elena is actually, Lena.

Lena dreams, or fantasizes, about Revelstone, and being a Lord. From Stonedown, to Revelstone.
Influenced by her Mother's term at the Lorestraat, listening to songs and legends, stories of Ranyhyn and Giants, gives her perhaps, delusions of granduer. Even snobery, by rejecting Triock. The Danger in Dreams.
Her encounter with Thomas Covenant, and the annual visits by the Ranyhyn, spur her on to fulfilling her ambitions.

The thing is... what you're talking about connects to a common implicit misconception of many parents (and their children, some days).

Children do NOT, in fact, exist to fulfill their parents' failed hopes and dreams.
A child is NOT, in fact, a "younger version" of the parent.

A child has his or her own dreams, desires, purposes, decisions to make, and consequences to bear.

Of course, you probably meant it in a more literary or metaphorical sense... or a more crazy "things are like this within the Land and the story" sense.
Well, now that I've gotten all that off my chest, what did you actually mean, kat?

(hmmm... a lot of vehemence there. just had to get that out of my system.) *sigh*

[Krazy Kat]

One possibility is that Elena is actually, Lena.

Lena dreams, or fantasizes, about Revelstone, and being a Lord. From Stonedown, to Revelstone.
Influenced by her Mother's term at the Lorestraat, listening to songs and legends, stories of Ranyhyn and Giants, gives her perhaps, delusions of granduer. Even snobery, by rejecting Triock. The Danger in Dreams.
Her encounter with Thomas Covenant, and the annual visits by the Ranyhyn, spur her on to fulfilling her ambitions.

The thing is... what you're talking about connects to a common implicit misconception of many parents (and their children, some days).

Children do NOT, in fact, exist to fulfill their parents' failed hopes and dreams.
A child is NOT, in fact, a "younger version" of the parent.

A child has his or her own dreams, desires, purposes, decisions to make, and consequences to bear.

Of course, you probably meant it in a more literary or metaphorical sense... or a more crazy "things are like this within the Land and the story" sense.
Well, now that I've gotten all that off my chest, what did you actually mean, kat?

(hmmm... a lot of vehemence there. just had to get that out of my system.) *sigh*

All I meant was, is Elena, Lena?
Maybe!

The people of the Land can also have dreams. And as dreams are the same thing as hope, so then surely, Lord Foul would attack people's dreams in order to destroy hope, throughout the Land. That's what he does!

edited: I had forgotten to add something in context with this thread.

I'm sure that Covenant knows far more about what is going on than it might seem, (to a new reader, perhaps). Although he may not see clearly what is happening around him at the time, he always keeps, 'both feet on the ground'. His struggles with the reality and dreamscape imposed on him by the Land, will always strengthen his grip on 'common sense', and being stubbornly 'down to earth'.

[peter]

I've read TIW many times and though I will not claim to be the most perceptive of readers ( many things have been made clear to me through the agency of these pages that I would otherwise never have been cogniscent of) I have never been aware of any undercurrent of awareness on Covenants part, acknowledged or not, that suggests he had any suspicion of his parental relationship to Elena before he was told of it. Can any quotes be furnished to support this idea.

[Krazy Kat]

I've read TIW many times and though I will not claim to be the most perceptive of readers ( many things have been made clear to me through the agency of these pages that I would otherwise never have been cogniscent of) I have never been aware of any undercurrent of awareness on Covenants part, acknowledged or not, that suggests he had any suspicion of his parental relationship to Elena before he was told of it. Can any quotes be furnished to support this idea.

Sorry, can't provide any quotes. I don't have the book.

One thing we do know for sure is that in the Illearth War the general theme that runs through the whole story is: withheld information, forbidden knowledge, and white lies. This makes it extremely difficult to know what's true, what's correct, and what isn't.
My guess is that even Thomas Covenant will give as good as he gets, witholding vital information. Very important really, as you can imagine just how much Lord Foul and his loremasters could corrupt such information.

What if Thomas Covenant had actually written the Chronicles?

This can make some sense on a certain level.
Let's say, Thomas Covenant wrote a story of his idea world. Unfortunately, the people inhabiting his world got it wrong. No matter how much they tried to interperate Thomas Covenant's story, with good intentions I must stress, they just kept messing things up. The sad part to this of course, is that in the Power That Preserves, they blame him for all that's transpired in the Land. They all put the boot in!

This makes some sense also, becauase of the general theme that runs through the One Tree. The Chronicles are convoluted. Spiralling down and into puzzles, riddles, and cryptic games, that make Stephen Donaldson a very satisfiying, and supremely tricksy storyteller.

[peter]

Thats a really interesting post Kat - not least because in my early days as a 'Watcher' I asked whether Dr Beresfords cryptic comment to Linden at the beginning of 'The Wounded Land' about 'some other works' Covenant had written', was a sidelong reference to the first Chrons. I was roundly denounced for makeing such a ridiculous suggestion ( ) but still believe to this day that SRD does not write anything that is not signifficant to the whole ie that the comment by Beresford was not just a 'filler' sentance as was suggested by most people who responded.

As a reader I am a simpleton who takes everything at face value (Animal Farm to me was a story about animals until I was told different). The themes of TIW 'witheld information, forbidden knowledge and white lies' - yes I guess so; in the Power That Preserves they turn on TC and 'blame him for all that has transpired in the Land' - I missed that one; and as to it 'making sense because of the general theme that runs through the One Tree, Kat - you are so far ahead of me there that it's like we are reading two different works. Don't get me wrong here Kat, I'm in no way sugesting your interpretations are wrong or not what Donaldson intended - just that they are not reaching me when I read Donaldsons work. For me SRD was just the ultimate story teller; the convolutions, riddles and spirals slipped by me without my even noticeing they were there.

If I have missed so much in Chrons 1 and 2 gosh knows how much of the third has gone by me. No wonder I am struggling to come to terms with it!

[Krazy Kat]

As a reader I am a simpleton who takes everything at face value

Me too! Believe me, I've been there, done it, wore the t-shirt.

sohaliatalitha's initial post does raise some pretty interesting alternatives, I too have often wondered about.

One crazy viewpoint I've tried to make sense of is the passage where Hile Troy watches the departure of the rafts, at Furls Fall. It gave me a distinct impression that the river, and the rafts, were zapping in and out of reality/fantasy. Like river and rafts were trying desperately to become a road and cars. How Troy must have been suffering. That is, if this were really so!

[peter]

Now that is a scene that I'had totally forgotten Kat and yes, it is one of great power and significance (but there were so many in the first Chrons that one was almost spellbound at every turn of the page). Seriously time for a re-read methinks!

[Darkdenubis]

They weren't lovers, no matter what some folks would have you believe. After the death of Elena's mount and her bonesculpting gift to TC, he sees the hatred in her and realizes how dangerous she truly can be. That's when you starts to use her to fullfill HIS role as the lands champion (victim) and, in the course of that manipulation, the text clearly states that while she appreciates his newfound attention for her, she is not as content as he that the relationship was platonic. "She offered herself to him and that offer was not lightly made" pretty much sums up how they got along, both in love but one (her) wanting it to become physical and he not daring to risk it, though he truly does desire her.

As far as incest and the Land goes, they obviously don't share the same taboo about it. I don't know if anyone else caught the reference, but when TC is introduced to Shetra at the gates of Revelstone, he immediately notices the simularities between her and her husband Verement...same nose, same eyes, same facial features...I would submit that they were at least blood relatives, if not actual brother and sister.

Furthermore, since Donaldson never covers the female lineage of the Old Lords, who is to say Kevin himself isnt a product of family inbreeding, ala Egyptian Pharoahs. Gotta keep that bloodline pure and all...

[Savor Dam]

While I agree that is is a cultural error to project our own values and taboos into a fantasy realm, I think it may be generalizing well beyond the data to assume that Elena's obsession with her biological father (Triock is her father in all ways except biology) translates into a general absence of an incest taboo in the Land.

[Vraith]

They weren't lovers, no matter what some folks would have you believe. After the death of Elena's mount and her bonesculpting gift to TC, he sees the hatred in her and realizes how dangerous she truly can be. That's when you starts to use her to fullfill HIS role as the lands champion (victim) and, in the course of that manipulation, the text clearly states that while she appreciates his newfound attention for her, she is not as content as he that the relationship was platonic. "She offered herself to him and that offer was not lightly made" pretty much sums up how they got along, both in love but one (her) wanting it to become physical and he not daring to risk it, though he truly does desire her.

As far as incest and the Land goes, they obviously don't share the same taboo about it. I don't know if anyone else caught the reference, but when TC is introduced to Shetra at the gates of Revelstone, he immediately notices the simularities between her and her husband Verement...same nose, same eyes, same facial features...I would submit that they were at least blood relatives, if not actual brother and sister.

Actually, I thought her offer was just another sign that her obsessive commitment/extremity was a bit unhinged...after all, she isn't some young woman just going through a sexual awakening.
And the Shetra/Veremont had more to do with the way that very long term couples tend to grow to resemble each other as they age [pets, too].