How bad is it?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Anyway, I trust that all will be illuminated in the Last Dark

Best line of the year.

[Lord Zombiac]

Some of the things I like a lot about the LC:
1. Kevin's Dirt is a relatively mild affliction on the Land. It was good to see the land so restored after the Sunbane.
2. Ramen and Ranyhyn, as well as Kresh return again!
3. the Masters, in their severe treatment of earthpower, are reminiscent of puritans trying to burn witches. This is a fictional theme that appeals to me a lot.
4. Stave's unexpected siding with Linden against the Masters was a definite high point for me!
5. Linden's intuitions not to trust "Covenant" and "Jeramiah" in FR were correct. I love women's intuition. I need to pay more attention to it in my life!
6. Liand's growth as a character, and then his horrific sacrifice are worthy literary devices.
7. Covenant's sacrifice of Elena was also poignant.
Some of the things I don't like:
1. Over elaborate narrative-- this is why I never finished reading "Dune." Too many sub-plots and complicated conflicts. I prefer epic heroic stories with simple narratives.
2. Like sleeplessone, I also think some of the imagery being over used-- particularly the bugs.
3. Too much self pity and despair from Linden. At this point she has to be insane not to get over it!
4. Too many giants, still not enough personality between them! I will wait though. The 2nd chronicle giants were introduced at the end of the first book. It took me a while for them to grow on me too. These giants only stepped in at the end of FR, the 2nd installment of the series. Already I'm beginning to see Grueburn emerge as a lovably ditzy bimbo.
5. Minor points of inconsistency. While the company emerges desperately thirsty from Lost Deep, Galt's needs are virtually ignored for something like 24 hours as he keeps the Croyel prisoner and everybody else drinks, eats, and bathes.
***
Other people have a problem with, but I don't:
1. Linden Avery. Covenant's character has already been through everything he can. Sometimes you gotta pass the torch!
2. Too many fantastical beings with overwhelming powers, seemingly created by whim. I would normally hate this myself, but Donaldson has displayed that he can pull it off. Consider TOT. At the end of that novel we have Covenant and Linden using white gold while a monster that can eat stars, and actually does so in their presence stirs. Normally that kind of thing is just too much. Not in Donaldson's capable hands. He manages to make immortals look human and mere mortals look transcendent.
3. (various and sundry) we all have a lot of problems with LC, but my problems were no greater than the ones I had already forgiven in the last two chronicles. Problems with pacing (agonizingly long voyages on foot or by sea) etc.,
I don't think these flaws detract from the power of this story at all.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

5. Minor points of inconsistency. While the company emerges desperately thirsty from Lost Deep, Galt's needs are virtually ignored for something like 24 hours as he keeps the Croyel prisoner and everybody else drinks, eats, and bathes.

I guess he's just tough and doesn't have needs. But along the same lines, I questioned the inattention paid to Covenant's ruined fingers. He came across as a lot less crippled than he was made out to be.

[ParanoiA]

5. Minor points of inconsistency. While the company emerges desperately thirsty from Lost Deep, Galt's needs are virtually ignored for something like 24 hours as he keeps the Croyel prisoner and everybody else drinks, eats, and bathes.

I guess he's just tough and doesn't have needs. But along the same lines, I questioned the inattention paid to Covenant's ruined fingers. He came across as a lot less crippled than he was made out to be.

And what about Mahrtiir's instant adaptation to blindness, to the point he can pull out a garrote and fight incredibly fatal monsters, on more than one occassion, after only a day or two to adjust? Yeah, I get the whole earth power health-sense adapter, but come on...

Just for laughs I wanted him to run into a tree, trip over rocks and shit or maybe even just accidentally walk off of a cliff. I wonder how many blind people are reading this book in braille, internally calling bullshit on all this...

[Lord Zombiac]

5. Minor points of inconsistency. While the company emerges desperately thirsty from Lost Deep, Galt's needs are virtually ignored for something like 24 hours as he keeps the Croyel prisoner and everybody else drinks, eats, and bathes.

I guess he's just tough and doesn't have needs. But along the same lines, I questioned the inattention paid to Covenant's ruined fingers. He came across as a lot less crippled than he was made out to be.

And what about Mahrtiir's instant adaptation to blindness, to the point he can pull out a garrote and fight incredibly fatal monsters, on more than one occassion, after only a day or two to adjust? Yeah, I get the whole earth power health-sense adapter, but come on...

Just for laughs I wanted him to run into a tree, trip over rocks and shit or maybe even just accidentally walk off of a cliff. I wonder how many blind people are reading this book in braille, internally calling bullshit on all this...

[Vraith]

[ Most internet conflicts are the result of people (mostly me) posting words as though they were present and people could judge where they were coming from by my facial expressions, tone of voice, etc.,

Funny thing is, I personally have LESS [but not NO] problem with that on the net than in RL.
Despite the fact that at least 3/4 of everything out of my mouth is to some extent meant to be ironic/humorous/fun [even about serious stuff], if I say "there are a million reasons," peeps think I mean a literal million; I can't say "I'd smack them," or "I'll kill you," without people backing away [or "come on, let's go," depending on their alpha-personality proportions]. Even some of my closest/longest friends get the "is he serious or not?" look on their faces fairly regularly.
Probably why I'm a decent dramatic actor, but ummm...not so much [being kind to myself] on most comic stuff.

But, I really wanted to say to Z, [hope he's not so bored he stopped reading] I was going to link my posts on the idea you liked...then saw I have 18 pages of posts, don't remember even which threads it was in, and honestly don't know if I could stand searching that much of my own blather.
The extremely short form was: LF/Creator are Ideal/Immortal beings [and now SHE, too.] IF LF and SHE were in their appropriate place [outside the Arch], they might still be in conflict with each other...no personality/Archtype change. But the struggles in the world are because, in addition to personality conflicts, their presence in a non-Ideal world is a torture of their actual selves/existence/structure. Kind of like, if you've ever been really deep under water, the pressure/limitations...only raised exponentially. But, of course, they can't be other than what they are, they don't "belong," every action they take, their very presence in the world exceeds the parameters that define that world. Their existence as axiological concepts, much like the real world, would be acceptable, even necessary, though they could lead to struggles/pain/death/war. [Due to health sense, earthpower, and other things, less so than real world] But as actual presences, everything is in ultimate danger, and painfully, fatally warped. I suggest even a sane/Love SHE, with the best intentions, if trapped in the Arch, would be destructive/dangerous unless she chose to simply do nothing. I also suggest that the Creator's realm, too, is incomplete/in danger because of their absence. The primary reason an outsider is needed is to restore the semi-permeable boundaries without total destruction [because the Creator does care.]
[heh...that's the short version...left stuff out.]
BUT: to at least attempt to make this topical, it's one of the reasons I like the LC's so much so far...this axiological conflict, and the ideal/material is being played out internally, and with slightly different focus/angle, both in the narrative structure as a whole AND within char's/races [Linden/TC, of course...but also Elohim, Haruchai, Giants, Insequent, Ranhyn, Ramen, I suspect SHE though we've only really seen one side of her so far.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

But as actual presences,

That post was very obscure, even though I do know what "axiological" means. Maybe if you replaced "actual presences" with "physical persons," or "archetypes come to life," it might clarify things a bit. And maybe some examples from axiology would be helpful too.

Edit - examples relevant to the Chrons, I mean.

[Vraith]

Very briefly: I used "presences" instead of "physical" because SHE/LF don't have/require "bodies" per se. Especially, I think, in their "native" territory.
The true immortals that we know [Elohim don't count, unless their legend of being before the world, and getting sucked in it literally true...which is for me still up in the air] LF/SHE/Creator:
They ARE what they ARE, and always will be precisely that. [though our knowledge of their Is-ness is, I think, incomplete].
The changes necessary within the Arch constrict/sever/impinge on them. And their immutable essence pushes back.
Real/Land inhabitants are only what they are if you can look at indivisible instants...what they really are is ever becoming [becoming dead for one thing]. Examples:
Linden: struggling with "I AM a killer." But is that so? She has been one. But IS she? And people say she wallows...she does NOT. She struggles, she fights, she chooses. She does not PITY herself...she is, more so even then Covenant merciless to herself. With barely an instants peace, she compares the Ideal, Perfect Linden, falls short of it, then punishes herself in ways that her critics wouldn't punish a cockroach, let alone themselves, because it would be too cruel.
Galt and Stave [all the Haruchai to greater, or lesser extent]. They constantly claim "WE ARE." But...then they are not. Galt is the best example because clear, precise, definite. Stave says [roughly] "He remained himself." But the choice that defined that self-ness, at that moment, defied the "we are" of the people as a whole. [Stave has done the same, as have others in the Chron's...but not as succinctly] Every important standard of the Haruchai is Ideal. Yet every meaningful action transforms it in some ways, while not in others. They SAY they must find out what they are worth, they've learned failure means little as long as they stay pure...despite the fact that every encounter with LF shows their entire definition of purity creates the failure.
If I wanted to do the research/citation [and bore the piss out of everyone] I could go on with this to thesis-paper length and examples.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Very briefly: I used "presences" instead of "physical" because SHE/LF don't have/require "bodies" per se. Especially, I think, in their "native" territory.
The true immortals that we know [Elohim don't count, unless their legend of being before the world, and getting sucked in it literally true...which is for me still up in the air] LF/SHE/Creator:
They ARE what they ARE, and always will be precisely that. [though our knowledge of their Is-ness is, I think, incomplete].
The changes necessary within the Arch constrict/sever/impinge on them. And their immutable essence pushes back.
Real/Land inhabitants are only what they are if you can look at indivisible instants...what they really are is ever becoming [becoming dead for one thing]. Examples:
Linden: struggling with "I AM a killer." But is that so? She has been one. But IS she? And people say she wallows...she does NOT. She struggles, she fights, she chooses. She does not PITY herself...she is, more so even then Covenant merciless to herself. With barely an instants peace, she compares the Ideal, Perfect Linden, falls short of it, then punishes herself in ways that her critics wouldn't punish a cockroach, let alone themselves, because it would be too cruel.
Galt and Stave [all the Haruchai to greater, or lesser extent]. They constantly claim "WE ARE." But...then they are not. Galt is the best example because clear, precise, definite. Stave says [roughly] "He remained himself." But the choice that defined that self-ness, at that moment, defied the "we are" of the people as a whole. [Stave has done the same, as have others in the Chron's...but not as succinctly] Every important standard of the Haruchai is Ideal. Yet every meaningful action transforms it in some ways, while not in others. They SAY they must find out what they are worth, they've learned failure means little as long as they stay pure...despite the fact that every encounter with LF shows their entire definition of purity creates the failure.
If I wanted to do the research/citation [and bore the piss out of everyone] I could go on with this to thesis-paper length and examples.

That looks like an accurate characterization of Linden. Even from the beginning of the 2nd Chrons she was introduced as "severe," the very opposite of self-pitying. And she is most severe on herself.

Her personal severity is affected by the exigency of the Land's need which she sees as always beyond her. She is a doctor, her most basic instinct is to heal. Her own desire for perfection creates the very real possibility of failure, thus she despairs, but always finds courage in desperation.

[peter]

Already I'm beginning to see Grueburn emerge as a lovably ditzy bimbo.

Naah! For me 'Grueburn' has to be Germanic (blonde I agree) and built big and brawny on bratwurst. Like an oak tree with t - no hang on, I can't say that here.

Seriously though, I have a problem with the 'downsizing' of the WOTWE in the Last Chrons against the way it was depicted at the end of the One Tree. In this book, though I cannot be sure it was stated as such, we had an Idea of the Worm lying within the world like a chick within it's egg, and that were the Worm to rouse it would slough off the outer layer that had gathered around it forming the world, to cataclysmic and almost instant effect thus ending the world and all that existed on it. Now however it appears that the worm was in fact some form of grub that cruises around chewing up worlds piecemeal from inside like a maggot within an apple. Hardly consistent in my minds eye with the terrifying cosmic being that cruised through the universe cutting a swathe through stars and galaxies and swallowing worlds whole - still, perhaps I just got it wrong.

Another thing. I remember reading in a book about fantasy worlds, only shortly after the 1st Chrons had been published, that Donaldson had ideas for a second series and a third, and it was this that always kept in my head that possibly - just possibly - one day we may see the return of TC on a concluding trilogy. Of course it was a long time coming - indeed to the point where I had long given up hope that such a thing would occur.

Now my question is this. We have heard much here about how Donaldson has aged and by virtue of this his latter work is bound to be of a deeper and more profound type than his earlier mere adventure based stories (someone I think compared the latter works to Dostoyevski), so what is the suggestion. Is it that Donaldson had a good old adventure yarn lined up for us all those years ago and shelved it in order to pursue this deeper, more introspective based story line, or that the story we have recieved is in fact just the story he had in mind and presented in the way he concieved it all those years ago. This negates the idea that the age/experience wrought changes in the author account for the change of style we see in the Last Chrons.

Finally if I can say, we seem at times here to be falling into two camps, the obvious Last Chron fans and the Last Chron disapointee's (if I can call them that and of which I am an obvious member) but there seems to be an additional undertone at times; that of detraction of the 1st and 2nd Chrons. I want us all to remember that it was these first six books that brought us together and that because (maybe) Donaldson has surpassed himself and moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style, it does not mean that the first six books are lessened in value or that the people who prefered this type of work are in some way lacking. We just happen to like the old style better. No rights, no wrongs, just differences. Thats all it is.

[TheFallen]

I want us all to remember that it was these first six books that brought us together and that because (maybe) Donaldson has surpassed himself and moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style, it does not mean that the first six books are lessened in value or that the people who prefered this type of work are in some way lacking. We just happen to like the old style better. No rights, no wrongs, just differences. Thats all it is.

As I've said before, progress/change is not invariably positive - it's always possible for sharks to be jumped. On that basis, there's no absolute necessity for the passage of 20 years to mean that SRD has "surpassed himself and moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style"... you're being very charitable there in trying to see the POV of the fervid Last Chrons supporters

Having said that, I think it's more that what interests SRD as an author has changed - single protagonist-focussed internalised drama, more than epic production stuff with a wider caringly depicted cast. This will either appeal or not - it's not "better" or "worse" by nature, but it is certainly as you rightly point out "different".

[Zarathustra]

I want us all to remember that it was these first six books that brought us together and that because (maybe) Donaldson has surpassed himself and moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style, it does not mean that the first six books are lessened in value or that the people who prefered this type of work are in some way lacking. We just happen to like the old style better. No rights, no wrongs, just differences. Thats all it is.

As I've said before, progress/change is not invariably positive - it's always possible for sharks to be jumped. On that basis, there's no absolute necessity for the passage of 20 years to mean that SRD has "surpassed himself and moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style"... you're being very charitable there in trying to see the POV of the fervid Last Chrons supporters

Having said that, I think it's more that what interests SRD as an author has changed - single protagonist-focussed internalised drama, more than epic production stuff with a wider caringly depicted cast. This will either appeal or not - it's not "better" or "worse" by nature, but it is certainly as you rightly point out "different".

I mostly agree with both of the "quotees" here, but I just wanted to grant, for the sake of argument, that it's possible SRD has "moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style," and yet still manage to produce a book that is not as good. "Sophisticated and literary" is not the same as a good story, told well, with fascinating characters who are utilized to maximum effect for the overall story. To put it another way ... we could just go read poetry, if "literary and sophisticated" was all we were seeking. Obviously, we're reading fantasy novels for more than that. The "disappointees" aren't disappointed because the novel is too literary and sophisticated. We actually like Donaldson for that, or we wouldn't be here in the first place. But before the issue of style, we first look for a good story. For many reasons, I feel AATE fails in this regard. I might feel differently on a reread ... but if I do, I'll be very disappointed in my reading comprehension and my own intuitive sense of storytelling. I have a pretty good idea about what I like--that's an area where I'm hardly ever wrong. But as far as "literary and sophisticated" goes, I really don't have a clear idea what that is.

[TheFallen]

I mostly agree with both of the "quotees" here, but I just wanted to grant, for the sake of argument, that it's possible SRD has "moved on to a more 'sophisticated and literary' style," and yet still manage to produce a book that is not as good. "Sophisticated and literary" is not the same as a good story, told well, with fascinating characters who are utilized to maximum effect for the overall story. To put it another way ... we could just go read poetry, if "literary and sophisticated" was all we were seeking. Obviously, we're reading fantasy novels for more than that. The "disappointees" aren't disappointed because the novel is too literary and sophisticated. We actually like Donaldson for that, or we wouldn't be here in the first place. But before the issue of style, we first look for a good story. For many reasons, I feel AATE fails in this regard.

Well argued - you're drawing attention (I think) to the possibilities of "style over substance", or even "art for art's sake" - but actually I don't think that SRD falls into either of these creative traps within AATE or the Last Chrons as a whole... and I'm sure you're not saying that, either.

I actually don't see a dramatic change in style between the Last Chrons and the first two. Of course SRD is 20+ years older, so some things are bound to have changed - but I don't get a jarring sense of discord when viewing the style of his writing in the Last Chrons, when comparing against what has gone before. To me, his authorial style is not particularly any more "literary and sophisticated".

Where I *do* see a major change is in the subject matter that now interests SRD, almost to the exclusion of all else. Time to trot out the "internalised conflict/psychodrama" comment - it's entirely this shift in authorial attention that for me at least has changed the balance of the Last Chrons for the worse, in comparison to Chrons 1 and 2, and not a change in style... it has apparently lessened my engrossment in the narrative. One could say that focussing on the internal is in some way a more literary or sophisticated objective, but that still doesn't make it a question of style.

I might feel differently on a reread ... but if I do, I'll be very disappointed in my reading comprehension and my own intuitive sense of storytelling. I have a pretty good idea about what I like--that's an area where I'm hardly ever wrong.

No, forget your likings... I'm Spartacus! Joking aside, the validity of personal taste and subjective appeal cannot of course be argued against.

Re re-reading, as I've posted elsewhere, I'm now just over halfway through AATE as part of a contiguous re-read (I re-read ROTE, then FR immediately before taking up AATE again). So far, I'm finding that my judgement of AATE has improved somewhat, which can only be put down to viewing it more closely within its context - a thing which is only fair to both the work and the author, I suppose. However, I haven't yet got to the parts of AATE that troubled me most first time around - SWMNBN and the secondary character abrupt deathfest. I'll provide my burblings elsewhere when I'm done.

[peter]

Fair points Guys about the 'style, literary and sophisticated' bits. Wrong words I agree, but I think you get the jist of what I was trying to convey. There just seems to be this atitude that the direction his writing has moved in, in the Last Chrons is in some way an advancement over the (would you call it narrative driven) storytelling of the first 6 books. This I don't get. For me it doesn't work, so either I'm deficient in my ability to read in some way (if it is an advancement) or it's not advancement - just a matter of taste.

[TheFallen]

I think you get the gist of what I was trying to convey.

Yep and largely agree with your sentiments.

There just seems to be this attitude that the direction his writing has moved in, in the Last Chrons is in some way an advancement over the (would you call it narrative driven) storytelling of the first 6 books. This I don't get. For me it doesn't work, so either I'm deficient in my ability to read in some way (if it is an advancement) or it's not advancement - just a matter of taste.

Agreed again - it's a movement because it's different, but that doesn't mean it's an advancement.

Equally, just because there are those here who'd sing the praises of the Last Chrons to the heavens and back doesn't mean in any way whatsoever that you're in some way deficient in your readership, simply because you don't perceive what they do.

What it *actually* means is that all those disagreeing with you are blatantly obviously a bunch of drug-crazed knuckle-dragging no-hopers

[peter]

You mean

Yeah - that's the guys!

[High Lord Tolkien]

What it *actually* means is that all those disagreeing with you are blatantly obviously a bunch of drug-crazed knuckle-dragging no-hopers

That's Mr. drug-crazed knuckle-dragging no-hoppers to you pal.

[peter]

How bizarre! The thread seems to have stopped in it's tracks after weeks of vituprative infighting in which no quater was asked or given
. Perhaps the effect of a little much needed humor into the proceedings. or perhaps (and more likely) an exhausted pause in an ongoing war of atrition!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

How bizarre! The thread seems to have stopped in it's tracks after weeks of vituprative infighting in which no quater was asked or given
. Perhaps the effect of a little much needed humor into the proceedings. or perhaps (and more likely) an exhausted pause in an ongoing war of atrition!

It's only bizarre if it goes on for weeks without mentioning Hitler or Nazis.

[Orlion]

How bizarre! The thread seems to have stopped in it's tracks after weeks of vituprative infighting in which no quater was asked or given
. Perhaps the effect of a little much needed humor into the proceedings. or perhaps (and more likely) an exhausted pause in an ongoing war of atrition!

It's only bizarre if it goes on for weeks without mentioning Hitler or Nazis.

Well, that's because folks who don't like AATE are Communists