Entire LCs Re-Read - AATE 2nd time around

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by Orlion »

TheFallen wrote:O
Diaboli ex machinae - the sudden popping up of SWMNBN still felt stilted. SRD has traditionally been more than adept at tying the history of the Land together throughout all the Chrons, and certainly he's at his best in the LCs fleshing out and adding detail to historical elements that have been alluded to in Chrons 1 and 2. Although the she-bane's going to have an important role to play in TLD, she was thrust onto stage with no pre-announcement or hint. (The same's also true of the briefest of mentions of Jerrick, the Demimage of Vidik Amar and the Quellvisks he corrupted under LF's influence... huh? If either is going to appear in TLD, that's hardly seamless).
Sometimes, I think Diaboli (or dues) ex machinae is something of a buzz phrase, and I am always loathe to use it, even if I agree with you that SWMNBN, Vidik Amar, and the Quellvisks were never, ever, ever, hinted at before AATE (the Clave Hymn withstanding). Here's why: That's how life works. Sometimes we stumble on things that we didn't know was there, even if it always was. It wasn't placed there by God, we just were never able to notice it before because of our limited frame of perspective. There are so many variables in life, we can not predict everything. So things just "pop up". This adds to the "realism" of the Last Chronicles, in my opinion.

Edited to add the following example. According toWikipedia:
In Chronicles of Thomas Covenant fantasy series, Thomas Covenant is killed in the final battle with Lord Foul, but reappears as a manifestation of the series' recurring element of wild magic. Using the white gold ring of wild magic from Covenant's body, Foul attacks the apparition, which only grows stronger with each blow. At the same time, Foul is drained of all of his power and disappears. Shortly after, Linden Avery takes the ring and uses it to combine Findail, who is Earthpower incarnate, and Vain, which is the series' Lore incarnate (and, it should be noted, had his hand turned into the same wood that the series' original Staff of Law was made of), to create a new Staff of Law, which instantly restores the Land to its original, healthy state.
I personally do not see how this is a DEM, the problem is resolved within the internal logic of the story, there is no inexplicable outside forces that decide, "Ok, let's make everything better." And yet, someone out there decided this is still a DEM, despite evidence from the literature to the contrary (I only don't provide examples because I'm assuming that you agree with me :P ). DEM is starting to have not only the negative connotation, but a nebulous definition that anyone can evoke to criticize what they don't like. Incidently, I don't think many people in this forum have done that, at least they've been consistent. I just don't like using it because it has lost any practical meaning to me.

Edited to further add: Upon reflection, I could concede the Quellvisk bones freeing Jeremiah's mind as being DEM. Still uneasy about it, but at the moment it seems to be a bonafide DEM (though not in the sense that I think it was lame... I liked it :P )
Last edited by Orlion on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFallen »

Orlion wrote:Sometimes, I think Diaboli (or dues) ex machinae is something of a buzz phrase, and I am always loathe to use it, even if I agree with you that SWMNBN, Vidik Amar, and the Quellvisks were never, ever, ever, hinted at before AATE (the Clave Hymn withstanding). Here's why: That's how life works. Sometimes we stumble on things that we didn't know was there, even if it always was. It wasn't placed there by God, we just were never able to notice it before because of our limited frame of perspective. There are so many variables in life, we can not predict everything. So things just "pop up". This adds to the "realism" of the Last Chronicles, in my opinion.
I don't (and of course can't) disagree - the unexpected is self-evidently part of anyone's real world experience.

Having said that, I'm now about to disagree with you strongly :( . You're broaching a far wider subject - is it necessary or indeed desirable for art to imitate life slavishly? I'd say, dependant on the type of vehicle the artist has chosen for him-/herself, no. I can't accept your premise that just because life's full of the unpredictable, adding unpredictability into a novel makes it more "realistic". To use my much over-used reductio ad absurdum, on that basis, it would apparently make Last Chrons more "realistic" if SRD informed us every time Linden picked her nose, or Coldspray broke wind, or the Haruchai took a leak, or whatever. All those things are real world actualities that happen to us all in everyday life, but it doesn't mean that they should feature, because this would shatter tone and suspension of disbelief. Adding the really "real" does not inevitably make things more "realistic", I'm afraid.

SRD's taken so far nine books to build a world/universe/stage that's entirely believable in and thus to a very large extent exceptionally well-realised. He's not done this by labouring the "real". To put it another way, " given that the act of readership is by its very nature artificial (it's obviously not the manner in which we perceive the real world), what's required from an author is that he engenders a suspension of disbelief within his readers, so that we subconsciously buy into the narrative. This in turn demands a creative skill and seamlessness, which IMHO SRD achieves in general - but fails to achieve now and then, with the abrupt popping up of SWMNBN being to me a clear example of this. The appearance of the She-Bane *is* entirely unexpected - so much so that to me at least, it "clunked"... it felt like a visibly artificial narrative device.

However, in general, SRD's narrative is well-crafted - and crafted is the exactly appropriate word here... it's skilfully artificial. It gives the impression of being real which is not at all the same thing as being real... those two cakes necessarily have entirely different ingredients. :)
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Post by Orlion »

TheFallen wrote:
Orlion wrote:Sometimes, I think Diaboli (or dues) ex machinae is something of a buzz phrase, and I am always loathe to use it, even if I agree with you that SWMNBN, Vidik Amar, and the Quellvisks were never, ever, ever, hinted at before AATE (the Clave Hymn withstanding). Here's why: That's how life works. Sometimes we stumble on things that we didn't know was there, even if it always was. It wasn't placed there by God, we just were never able to notice it before because of our limited frame of perspective. There are so many variables in life, we can not predict everything. So things just "pop up". This adds to the "realism" of the Last Chronicles, in my opinion.
I don't (and of course can't) disagree - the unexpected is self-evidently part of anyone's real world experience.

Having said that, I'm now about to disagree with you strongly :( . You're broaching a far wider subject - is it necessary or indeed desirable for art to imitate life slavishly? I'd say, dependant on the type of vehicle the artist has chosen for him-/herself, no. I can't accept your premise that just because life's full of the unpredictable, adding unpredictability into a novel makes it more "realistic". To use my much over-used reductio ad absurdum, on that basis, it would apparently make Last Chrons more "realistic" if SRD informed us every time Linden picked her nose, or Coldspray broke wind, or the Haruchai took a leak, or whatever. All those things are real world actualities that happen to us all in everyday life, but it doesn't mean that they should feature, because this would shatter tone and suspension of disbelief. Adding the really "real" does not inevitably make things more "realistic", I'm afraid.

SRD's taken so far nine books to build a world/universe/stage that's entirely believable in and thus to a very large extent exceptionally well-realised. He's not done this by labouring the "real". To put it another way, " given that the act of readership is by its very nature artificial (it's obviously not the manner in which we perceive the real world), what's required from an author is that he engenders a suspension of disbelief within his readers, so that we subconsciously buy into the narrative. This in turn demands a creative skill and seamlessness, which IMHO SRD achieves in general - but fails to achieve now and then, with the abrupt popping up of SWMNBN being to me a clear example of this. The appearance of the She-Bane *is* entirely unexpected - so much so that to me at least, it "clunked"... it felt like a visibly artificial narrative device.

However, in general, SRD's narrative is well-crafted - and crafted is the exactly appropriate word here... it's skilfully artificial. It gives the impression of being real which is not at all the same thing as being real... those two cakes necessarily have entirely different ingredients. :)
Yes, I can agree with that. What I guess we disagree on are what "clunked" that suspension of disbelief (which is largely subjective). With SHE, I was expecting, well, SOMETHING when they crossed that bridge. Something was wrong, and I was expecting to find out about it. I didn't know or try to imagine what it might have been. So when it turned out to be SHE, was wowed out of my mind.
I guess in my mind, I was able to maintain that suspension of disbelief. Anele's death kinda threw me off, but I liked that. I liked that I wasn't able to anticipate Donaldson's move, even if it makes sense in retrospect.
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Post by ninjaboy »

Fallen, Orlion..
I don't really have an isssue with these aspects of the story.. Throughout the Chrons we'd been given reason to believe there more banes under Mount Thunder and more lore-wise / pussiant beings in this world that we were aware of..
I only think that the character of SHE is a little, well.. one-dimensional? But aside from everything else, the story needs these characters, as how is the very world going to be in any danger when there are no beings with the capacity to destroy it?
I suppose what it boils down to, for me, is that Donasldson is challenginng us in different ways in the last Chrons. He challenges both himself and us in different ways in each Chrons, and part of that for us is to accept things which before the Last Chrons we may not have considered, like the deal by which the Giants obtained the Elohim's gift of tongues..
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Post by danlo »

Every time to see discussions like this I'm reminded of the husband who goes out drinking with the boys, and tries to sneak in the the door at 2AM, of course waiting for him is SHE with a huge rolling bin ready to crack him over the head. Lord Foul's Bane indeed!!! (that TC! what a back influence and home wrecker! "But dear we're only going there for an hour to watch Susie Thurston sing...":mrgreen:)
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Alas, it appears that I alone am not gaining any bennefit from the 2nd read of AATE. Interestingly for me it was worse the second time around reading it in isolation than it was first time when I timed it perfectly to butt up against a reading of TROTE and FR (I finished FR the day before AATE arrived in the post!). I made it as far as the period after SWMNBN under Landsdrop and then gave it up as a bad job. I had lost interest completely and reading the book had become a chore. I will certainly read the final volume when it arrives, but have at this time no real enthusiasm for the undertaking. Cest la vie Guys. SRD will still go down as the author who has given me greatest pleasure in my life - but not I'm afraid with the Last Chrons.
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peter wrote:Alas, it appears that I alone am not gaining any bennefit from the 2nd read of AATE. Interestingly for me it was worse the second time around reading it in isolation than it was first time when I timed it perfectly to butt up against a reading of TROTE and FR (I finished FR the day before AATE arrived in the post!). I made it as far as the period after SWMNBN under Landsdrop and then gave it up as a bad job. I had lost interest completely and reading the book had become a chore. I will certainly read the final volume when it arrives, but have at this time no real enthusiasm for the undertaking. Cest la vie Guys. SRD will still go down as the author who has given me greatest pleasure in my life - but not I'm afraid with the Last Chrons.
While I know you're not addressing yours truly, I, for one, never guaranteed that it would seem to improve the second time around. I only said that impressions change with each reading. For me, the benefits of a second reading (which I started but got side-tracked on) involve gaining a better understanding of how the story was constructed.
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Post by Orlion »

peter wrote:Alas, it appears that I alone am not gaining any bennefit from the 2nd read of AATE. Interestingly for me it was worse the second time around reading it in isolation than it was first time when I timed it perfectly to butt up against a reading of TROTE and FR (I finished FR the day before AATE arrived in the post!). I made it as far as the period after SWMNBN under Landsdrop and then gave it up as a bad job. I had lost interest completely and reading the book had become a chore. I will certainly read the final volume when it arrives, but have at this time no real enthusiasm for the undertaking. Cest la vie Guys. SRD will still go down as the author who has given me greatest pleasure in my life - but not I'm afraid with the Last Chrons.
Who knows, you may just need time... or an awesome final volume where you say, "So that's why that had to happen!"
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Post by ninjaboy »

TheFallen wrote:
ninjaboy wrote:I am indeed doing the exact same thing you are - an AATE re-read.
Ninjaboy, I'd be interested to hear if your opinion on AATE has altered as mine did after a second time read through.
OK Fallen.. I should make it clear that I had bought AATE on the first day of it's release, but waited 'till I'd read from LFB right up to the last page of FR before beginning it, so the first time I read it I was already kinda 'there', if you know what I mean.. And then my re-read began quite soon after I'd finished my first read through.

Your opinion of the book was raised when it was placed in sequence with the previous two books of the last Chronichles, as you said in an earlier post. And my opinion of the book was raised soley through reading it again.. I would like to think that your opinion of the book wasn't only improved because you read it as part of the proper sequence of the last Chronicles, but can't know either way for sure.

I supppose the biggest problem I had with my first read-through is that it felt kind of disjointed, and I had trouble keeping up with what was happening in the story. You wrote that some readers had problems with the pacing of events, where I had problems with the fact that so little time was passing, the entire span of AATE would just be 2 to 3 days. I couldn't really get my head around that on my forst read-through, but I understood it and appreciated it a lot more the second time around.

The other thing that you are right about is the internalised drama.. The story is going in vastly different places to the first 2 Chrons, everything is changing, and everyone in the Land is changing too - the Haruchai, the Ramen, the Demondim-Spawn.. These people have faced or are facing struggles about their identity, and it's mesmerising and really draws me in as a reader, and a lover of the peoples of that world. But at the same time things are also getting more symbolic, more unreal, and more significant.. There's just so much more to take in when you are reading these Last Chronichles, and AATE in particular.

I don't have a problem with the sudden deaths of particular individuals, but...
Spoiler
The Harrow was just getting really interesting.. Esmer's death really seemed anticlimatic.. I have no qualms with Liand's - it was so unexpected and brilliant.. But Galt's shouldn't have hapenned. there were many things he could have done to avoid that axe, or at least ensure it wasn't a fatal blow. And I don't mind Anele's death either, though it annoys me that he was always referred to as 'the last hope of the Land' and he didn't seem to achieve anything too great..
I do have to agree with you about the shallowness of teh Giants though - I am glad they are there, but I'm wanting to see more which sets them apart from each other.. in FR Coldspray said she's not the mightiest of the swordmannir, but the most cunning.. And I've not see her display any cunning in AATE, or any other Giants display more might than her.

SWMNBN. I think I have less of a problem with this character than most others.. People seem to think She appeared onto the scene with no warning, with no hints of Her presence.. I disagree. She wasn't specifically mentioned, of course, but we were given knowledge that there were more dire and foul banes down there. Someone aware of that and curious about the story of Diassomer Mininderain may have put them together.. And even if she had been mentioned - if Prothall said there were tales of a sentient ball of flaming hate, called the Joanferice, living in what could only be described an an underground volcano - would we have literally believed him?
People still seem uncertain whether the Fire Lions actually ARE fire lions, or just lava that just seems to come down when necessary, and not sentient lions of fire that are totally badass.
But what I like about this character is that she accounts for the fact that the Insequent rarely come to the Land, which is why we didn't get to know them till the Last Chrons. (Kenaustin Ardenol aside - but we didn't know he was Insequent then, and nor was that in the Land..)

What does continue to annoy me though is the Feroce. I like them as characters, but I don't like the references to the Illearth Stone they come with.. There was no need for Donaldson to use emerald again, unless there is some IS connection.. There are other colours out there! But what I have a problem with is the power they demonstrated over Linden. Sending her back into her memories and changing them.. I enjoyed reading that sequence, but where the hell did they learn to do that? Their ancestors seemed to have no magicks at all. And surely it would require some sort of mind-reading ability to put her into that specific memory, and perhaps even a 'real-world' perspective to understand how she would respond.. And it's a sort of ability that I've not come across in the Chrons at all before either.. It doesn't seem to fit.

Ultimately though I should emphasise that I did enjoy AATE more the second time.. It's building up to something incredible, it seems.. You know what, personally I would have liked it if TC and Linden were doing similar quests as in the First and Second Chrons. But this is right. This is so much deeper, darker, more cataclysmic and significant, it seems, than the previous stories. There's so much more at stake. I think to appreciate this book you really have to accept the nature and direction the Last Chrons is taking.. It's really the same story, but elevated to a higher plane, with more powerful forces, deeper symbolism, and blurring the distinctions between worlds.
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Post by Zarathustra »

ninjaboy wrote:But what I have a problem with is the power they demonstrated over Linden. Sending her back into her memories and changing them.. I enjoyed reading that sequence, but where the hell did they learn to do that? Their ancestors seemed to have no magicks at all. And surely it would require some sort of mind-reading ability to put her into that specific memory, and perhaps even a 'real-world' perspective to understand how she would respond.. And it's a sort of ability that I've not come across in the Chrons at all before either.. It doesn't seem to fit.
The Feroce don't have to read minds or know about the real world. Linden's own brain could have produced the altered memories, just as our brain does when we dream. The Feroce could have just supplied the impetus--an enforced feeling or mood--and then sat back and watched what happened. Lots of different dreams could have achieved the same effect upon Linden. It didn't have to be that one. That's just the one her brain picked to respond to the external intrusion upon her mind.
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Post by peter »

The idea that the Land would in the end turn out to be totally dreamed by TC has crosed my mind many times but the idea that the Land turns out to be real to TC only then for TC and the Land to be both part of a dream (or indeed not) of Linden Avery's ... is starting to get a bit mind-bending. Just think how pissed THOOLAH would be if Linden turns out to be the only reality of the whole thing. Now that would be worth laughing at (joy being in the ears that hear and all.....)
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Post by Rigel »

Cambo wrote: Unearned power combined with reckless immaturity is, to me, a pretty frightening combination. Roger's like Frankenstein's monster, a murderous being made all the more frightening by youth and inexperience.
Hey, that's totally unfair. Frankenstein's creation was an intelligent, articulate being who had a very real grievance against his creator. In fact, if TC broke the AoT and began an assault on the Creator for abandoning the land, it would be a much more apt parallel of Mary Shelley's story.

Roger is just a douche. But I agree, his immaturity combined with his unearned power make him a very dangerous enemy (and thematically linked to the Croyel).
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Post by Zarathustra »

How did Roger not earn his power?
How did Tom earn his?

I don't see how earning power makes one less scary or dangerous. Teaching yourself how to make bombs might qualify as "earning" it. Does that comfort the people who have bombs dropped on them? I can work a job and earn a gun. Does that make the gun less scary than one that is given as a gift? I guess I never really *got* this point SRD is trying to make. Immaturity is another issue. That makes almost any power one has--earned or unearned--dangerous. However, most of the mass destruction that happens on this planet is done by mature people who earn their power. I think ideology is scarier. If everyone was a pragmatist, at least you could deal with them. How do you fight zealotry? Or good intentions? Reason almost never works against those two evils.

I suppose I'm saying: it is naive to assume that earning power teaches one the maturity to use it wisely. Even the most mature person with the best intentions can simply be wrong. The only buffer against that is more power.
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Post by Cambo »

Rigel wrote:
Cambo wrote: Unearned power combined with reckless immaturity is, to me, a pretty frightening combination. Roger's like Frankenstein's monster, a murderous being made all the more frightening by youth and inexperience.
Hey, that's totally unfair. Frankenstein's creation was an intelligent, articulate being who had a very real grievance against his creator. In fact, if TC broke the AoT and began an assault on the Creator for abandoning the land, it would be a much more apt parallel of Mary Shelley's story.

Roger is just a douche. But I agree, his immaturity combined with his unearned power make him a very dangerous enemy (and thematically linked to the Croyel).
Well yeah, the comparison kind of ends where I left it, I'll give you that.
Zarathustra wrote:How did Roger not earn his power?
How did Tom earn his?
Roger didn't earn his power because his power came from an external source, and was never anything to do with him until Kastenessen maimed them both.

Tom earned his power by reaching the solution to his personal dilemma in the "Eye of the Paradox" sequence at the end of TPTP. Both the solution and the power are intimate to himself, as we find out later he in a very literal sense is the white gold.

Earning power would seem to be in Donaldson's themes tied up with wisdom, self-knowledge, and a healthy dose of pain. Self knowledge probably being the most important, as the most potent powers all seem to be essential to the wielder- Covenant's ring, Linden's staff, ur-Viles Lore, the Bloodguard Vow, to name a few. Teaching yourself to build a bomb would probably be closer to how Foul works; manipulating forces other than yourself to achieve an explosive result. That is, if it correlates at all; the Land is a very internalised world, not much primacy is given to technology.
Zarathustra wrote:I suppose I'm saying: it is naive to assume that earning power teaches one the maturity to use it wisely. Even the most mature person with the best intentions can simply be wrong. The only buffer against that is more power.
Well to apply my theory here: let's look at the best example of this within the Chronicles, the disaster at the One Tree. Covenant believed he had to be the one to save the day, he had to be the one to fashion a new Staff of Law, right then and there. Because he'd saved the Land before, of course. He thought Linden was there more or less to pick up the pieces if he failed.
Now, at this point I would say he has lots of maturity; the interchanges between him and Linden on Starfare's Gem demonstrate that he is at least aware of the dangers and paradoxical futility of his power- "a more complicated form of helplessness" he calls it. But he doesn't have the self knowledge to know what his power is good for. I guess you could say he is misinterpreting his Weird. The seeds for his solution are sown in witnessing Brinn's victorious surrender against the Guardian, then bear fruit in the Banefire.

I'm not necessarily saying self-knowledge is the key to wise use of power in our world- although I think it's desirable. But it does seem to me to be how it works within the Land's power system, where unlike here, power seems a manifestation of identity.
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Post by peter »

We could just as easily say that Roger earned his power by being cut adrift from his father at an age he could not understand, for reasons he could not understand, being pulled from one lonely bedsit to the next in the care of a semi-psychotic mother who thought his needs were best derved by exposing him to one cult after another, pulling his mind this way and that until.... well, we see the consequences. Where was TC in all this. Did he not understand that retreating into a shell of self pity was not an option - even in the face of leprosy, when your child is in dire sraits and you are the only one who can do anything about it. It seems to me that Roger earned his power (badass though he undoubtedly is) in many ways before his introduction proper into the story

(As an aside I have also always felt that Joan gets a pretty raw deal in the Chrons as well.)

re The Frankenstein point above;-
Did I request thee maker, from this clay to mould me Man.
Did I solicit thee from darkness to promote me?
(Miltons words - not mine!)
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Post by Cambo »

Well, TC had no contact with Joan for the years between his contraction of leprosy and Joan showing up at his house ten years later. He wasn't to know what kind of sick shit Joan was getting into.

Joan does get a raw deal, but no worse than TC or Linden, and certainly through no fault of TC's.

I don't think Roger's history counts as earning his power. Dealing with his history on his own terms, as Linden eventually did, might lead him to come into his own power. As it is I see him as just a pawn of greater powers than he, albeit a deadly pawn.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Cambo wrote: Roger didn't earn his power because his power came from an external source, and was never anything to do with him until Kastenessen maimed them both.
But the ring is an external source, too. Yes, I know it's a metaphor for something intrinsic to Tom, so it's not really external. But you could say the same about Roger's hand. Saying it came from an external source ignores how it's a metaphor for his own hatred, Despite, etc., just as the ring is a metaphor for Tom's passion, freewill, humanity, etc.
Cambo wrote: Tom earned his power by reaching the solution to his personal dilemma in the "Eye of the Paradox" sequence at the end of TPTP. Both the solution and the power are intimate to himself, as we find out later he in a very literal sense is the white gold.
How can it simultaneously be intrinsic and earned? If it's intrinsic to TC, he doesn't have to earn it. Besides, he didn't earn it. Reaching his solution didn't give him power. He could already raise that power, though not consistently.
Earning power would seem to be in Donaldson's themes tied up with wisdom, self-knowledge, and a healthy dose of pain. Self knowledge probably being the most important, as the most potent powers all seem to be essential to the wielder- Covenant's ring, Linden's staff, ur-Viles Lore, the Bloodguard Vow, to name a few. Teaching yourself to build a bomb would probably be closer to how Foul works; manipulating forces other than yourself to achieve an explosive result. That is, if it correlates at all; the Land is a very internalised world, not much primacy is given to technology.
But if Donaldson's points are only true in a fantasy world, then it's worthless. If we can't apply those truths to our own lives (and hence, technology), what's the point? Pure entertainment and escapism. If Donaldson is only talking about internal forces intrinsic to ourselves--and not external forces other than ourselves, then there's absolutely no danger in acquiring power. You can only hurt yourself with an internal power (whatever that is).

Bombs aren't inherently evil. We can use them for things as noble as space exploration. Scientists have proposed using nuclear explosions to propel ships close to the speed of light. A giant nuclear "bomb" powers our entire solar system.

It just seems like Donaldson is missing something essential in his analysis of power and the value of earning it. It seems he's trying to connect morality to practical issues in an impractical way. And whenever your morality ignores or conflicts with the way the world really is, it becomes inauthentic and eventually destructive ... like the Oath of Peace. It robs people of their power, it oppresses.

Another question: has Jeremiah earned his power? Is playing with Legos all it takes to earn wizardry? If so, then I must have earned quite a lot of power myself ... I've logged quite a few hours playing with Legos. 8)
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Post by peter »

Sorry Cambo - I don't buy the 'no contact' excuse. No father could justify that argument for abrogating his responsibility for the well-being of his offspring. Covenant was of independant means, a free agent in terms of work and perfectly capable of keeping an eye on the conditions of his son's upbrining. Once the paucity of Rogers existence became obvious he would have had the means to do something about it had he so desired. Like it or not he has to take his share of the blame for what Roger becomes. Am I not right in thinking that at the end of the first Chrons TC was offered various options as to where and how he was to go from that point. Could he not have bargained for the return of his wife and son in some way? Once Donaldson had introduced LA into TC's world it seems to me that Roger and Joans fate was sealed - they had to be bad or it all fell apart.
I do however agree about Roger being a pawn. The only power in fact that he has is that ceeded to him by those who wish to manipulate him by virtue of his weakness - which is no real power at all.
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Post by Vraith »

I want to go back a bit, I think Z has pointed at an essential problem, [and some other possible questions] that deserves some delving with this:
Zarathustra wrote:How did Roger not earn his power?
How did Tom earn his?

I don't see how earning power makes one less scary or dangerous. Teaching yourself how to make bombs might qualify as "earning" it. Does that comfort the people who have bombs dropped on them? I can work a job and earn a gun. Does that make the gun less scary than one that is given as a gift? I guess I never really *got* this point SRD is trying to make. Immaturity is another issue. That makes almost any power one has--earned or unearned--dangerous. However, most of the mass destruction that happens on this planet is done by mature people who earn their power. I think ideology is scarier. If everyone was a pragmatist, at least you could deal with them. How do you fight zealotry? Or good intentions? Reason almost never works against those two evils.

I suppose I'm saying: it is naive to assume that earning power teaches one the maturity to use it wisely. Even the most mature person with the best intentions can simply be wrong. The only buffer against that is more power.
I think that you never "got" that point, Z, because it isn't the point he's making...it's a question/issue that leads to the point...no, that's not what I mean...I think you DID get it, because it was, in part, leading to what you ask then say about zealotry/intentions. There are two different questions, at least, when talking about "earning" power. One is easy: if you have power, you have, in one way or another, "earned" it...though [royal] we could argue forever about how you payed for it, whether you payed enough. The other question is ethical, can be connected with maturity and other things, but I think can be rephrased as "are you worthy of the power you have?"
In a pure, ideological sense and existence, the only "good" uses of power are those whose use affects only yourself. Every other use violates someone. And if the Land is really only in TC's head, that's one use and lesson he's learned/learning...but also [this is an important part of what Linden is going through]:
In any world that allows for free will/choices, an unknowable/indeterminate future...the question of worthiness/earned power is different. The decisions on use come from one with the power, and in a free world power IS danger: it always harms someone, and you can never be sure it will only be "bad guys." The difference from the pure world is that you don't usually have the option of exercising power only over yourself, and that the judgement on whether you earned it/were worthy, whether it was "good" use or not, is made by others.
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Post by ParanoiA »

I just thought he meant that power unearned somewhat presumes important cautionary lessons were skipped that would have otherwise been encountered and learned.

A sort of extension of respect for great force. You're not supposed to fear or dismiss the severity of a sawblade, you're supposed to respect it.

Not sure I can dream up examples where this might apply for the chronicles, but I'm not sure I have to. The idea seems reasonable enough to earn a spot in a wiseman's wisecracks.
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